An important appeal for Saturday

[e10_yellow 0]

I''ve got a better song anyway. "We''ve got more points than you, we''ve got more points than you..."

[Jim Smith 2,317]

Mick

 

I''ve read the report. it definitely changed my views slightly on what happened that day albeit it has not changed my overriding view that it was the whole thing was a tragic combination of factors and circumtances that came together (as someone else said in a perfect storm) to cause a major trajedy. Having read the report i am certainly of the view that the health and safety authorities and the public authorities were far more culpable than I at first thought and in particular, the fact that fans died who could have been saved because of the inadequate response of those authorities and, quite possibly, because they were football fans is deeply disturbing. I do not see how any football fan, particularly those of us who have been going for a long time, cannot find that disturbing. The subsequent cover up was also a disgrace and I hope those responsible are in some way brought to book for it and the families of those who died get at least some answers. To that extent I empathise with the Liverpool fans more than i did previously in terms of why they have continued to seek answers and the disclosure of the material reviewed by the panel.

On the other hand, however, I think that many on here (and amongst the support of virtually every club) perhaps raised an eyebrow at the very firm conclusion reached in the report that fan behaviour was not in any way a cause of what happened. It clearly was not THE cause. It maybe also was not one of the main causes. After all, fans (some probably ticketless) turning up late to games, standing on poorly designed terraces and fenced in happened week in, week out at football in those days and on other occasions did not result in this kind of disaster. Something different was added to the mix on that day and it was the negligence of the public authorities, particularly the police. However, I personally do not see how anyone can really be sure how many fans turned up that day and may have got into the ground without tickets or how many in the crush outside the ground were attempting to do so. That is simply something that is not really quantifiable. There is, however, amongst the documents disclosed to the panel a report by the police (obtained retrospectively and no doubt with a view to trying to excuse themselves post event) which contains accounts from various police officers around the country (including in fact the commander in charge of the match at Carrow Road referred to above) of Liverpool fans attending games throughout that season 9and indeed the FA Cup Final a few weeks after the disaster) without tickets and trying to get into the ground despite matches being all ticket. There are also a few (admittedly only 4 or 5) witness statements from local residents who refer to conversations with fans in pubs prior to the match where the fans told them they didn''t have tickets but were confident they would get in. Now i''m sure some might say those accounts are just the police trying to cover their backs but i also know someone who lives near Hillsborough and drinks in the local pubs who has told me on various occasions that there are numerous regulars in those pubs with similar stories. I therefore think that to simply gloss over fan behaviour as a factor at all is a touch convenient, although perhaps given the purpose of this review and the make up of the panel is perhaps unsurprising.

Just as a final point this sort of fan behaviour was of course not exclusive to Liverpool. it was certainly present at other clubs as well (although liverpool were perhaps the best well known for it). I am not sure, however, that i accept the "there by the grace of god go we" argument because (i) I don;t believe the same culture has ever existed at our club to the same degree and (ii) we obviously do not have as big a support as them. Given the latter point the idiotic decision to give them the smaller terrace is obviously just another of the many factors that all came together on that day.

[Mick Dennis 0]

The document from Norfolk Police produced for the inquiry was generated in June 1989. In other words, South Yorkshire Police asked Norfolk, "Did anything happen at your game that might help us now that 96 people have died and we''re getting the blame?" So the officer in charge of police the Carrow Road Game wrote a report.

It did not say fans turned up late without tickets to force their way in.

These are the relevant parts of the document

“There was a significant crowd assembling outside Carrow Road by midday. Almost all were Liverpool supporters and the majority had tickets.

"By 13.00 hours there was a considerable crowd gathered, a number of whom did not have tickets. Many said they were not aware it was an all-ticket match and others that they could not obtain tickets because they came from areas distant from Liverpool.

"I decided therefore to open two turnstiles to sell returned tickets, after agreement with the club.

"...... All the tickets were sold in this fashion and there is no doubt some home supporters benefitted in this way.

"..... The visiting supporters were quite well behaved and formed orderly queues outside the ground. They did not arrive late and all supporters were inside the ground by 1500 hours.”

In other words, they weren''t late, they all paid, and some of our fans did the same thing.

You know someone who says there are people in Sheffield who keep believing it wasn''t their police or their ground that were the problem, it was those horrible Scousers.

And you suggest that the inquiry panel had made up their mind in advance. You''d rather cling to what you have always believed.

I give up. That''s it. You can talk among yourselves.

[Firedawg 3]

Spot on Jim, the culture at our club rightly or wrongly is not quite so fanatical as other clubs in my opinion.

I have a workmate who is from Wolves and he used to work in factory up there and he said on a Monday morning if they had been beaten on the Saturday the whole factory was on a massive downer, the pain felt was almost palpable.

The Leeds forum is another good example where they take the mickey out of our ground ''being full of old women and children - not real fan''s'' whatever that is.

Most of the stadiums around that time were not particularly safe I remember standing in the Barclay when we scored against Bayern and I ended up about ten rows down and this probably happened every week in most grounds.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Do you think we should join in with this one Mick?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFvD7zSkf_0

 

 

[Jim Smith 2,317]

[quote user="Mick Dennis"]The document from Norfolk Police produced for the inquiry was generated in June 1989. In other words, South Yorkshire Police asked Norfolk, "Did anything happen at your game that might help us now that 96 people have died and we''re getting the blame?" So the officer in charge of police the Carrow Road Game wrote a report.

It did not say fans turned up late without tickets to force their way in.

These are the relevant parts of the document

“There was a significant crowd assembling outside Carrow Road by midday. Almost all were Liverpool supporters and the majority had tickets.

"By 13.00 hours there was a considerable crowd gathered, a number of whom did not have tickets. Many said they were not aware it was an all-ticket match and others that they could not obtain tickets because they came from areas distant from Liverpool.

"I decided therefore to open two turnstiles to sell returned tickets, after agreement with the club.

"...... All the tickets were sold in this fashion and there is no doubt some home supporters benefitted in this way.

"..... The visiting supporters were quite well behaved and formed orderly queues outside the ground. They did not arrive late and all supporters were inside the ground by 1500 hours.”

In other words, they weren''t late, they all paid, and some of our fans did the same thing.

You know someone who says there are people in Sheffield who keep believing it wasn''t their police or their ground that were the problem, it was those horrible Scousers.

And you suggest that the inquiry panel had made up their mind in advance. You''d rather cling to what you have always believed.

I give up. That''s it. You can talk among yourselves.[/quote]

I''m well aware of when it was written and why it was requested as i mentioned in my post. I believe what i believe based upon a variety of sources and my knowledge of having attended football matches for many years. You on the other hand seem to believe what you are told by the report and nothing else. The panel report is a good report. Its an important report. It has highlighted curruption and negligence on the part of the police force and the emergency services which i hope gets punished. It makes it clear that the police and other authorities were largely to blame for what happened (which looking at the nature of the evidence they were looking at and the panel members and terms of reference was always likely to be the outcome). However, to say that was the sole cause and to ignore patterns of fans behaviour around that time (as well as other factors such as the fences etc) is in my view over simplistic. Nobody will ever really know whether there were large numbers of ticketless fans or not and to a degree its not really that relevant now as the process will rightly move on to focus on the coverup and whether lives could have been saved but weren''t due to the incompetence of the authorities.

[......and Smith must score. 1,343]

[quote user="Firedawg"]Spot on Jim, the culture at our club rightly or wrongly is not quite so fanatical as other clubs in my opinion.

I have a workmate who is from Wolves and he used to work in factory up there and he said on a Monday morning if they had been beaten on the Saturday the whole factory was on a massive downer, the pain felt was almost palpable.

The Leeds forum is another good example where they take the mickey out of our ground ''being full of old women and children - not real fan''s'' whatever that is.

Most of the stadiums around that time were not particularly safe I remember standing in the Barclay when we scored against Bayern and I ended up about ten rows down and this probably happened every week in most grounds.[/quote]I think your memories playing tricks Firedawg.The Barclay was all-seater when Bayern visited as I sat in Block A. If you ended about ten rows of seats down when we scored then that must have been some celebration.....

[Jerzy Krukowski 5]

Excellent posts Mick. Just to add, I read a report last week that the previous year at Hillsborough, Liverpool fans had been let into the away end and segregated because there was space available. They could reasonably have been expecting the same thing to happen again even if they had turned up without tickets. The fact is that the Police and emergency services cocked up and tried to deflect the blame onto largely (if not completely) innocent people. Of course some Liverpool fans were violent or racist scum then as now, just like every club. I''ve heard racist comments at the last two away games I''ve been to coming from Norwich fans, that doesn''t mean I think all city fans are racist or anything like it, but we have a minority of morons too.

[Firedawg 3]

Showing my age then smith ! Was some celebration you are right, must have been awhile previous but I distinctly remember thinking ''Bloody hell where''s my uncle gone'' and discovering him halfway up the Barclay.

Unless of course he was lifted up a few rows !

[Jon Moorhouse 0]

The ignorance of some people on here is both astounding and quite frightening. I had several friends at the match - people I knew at the time and people I have got to know since. We were at a packed Villa Park that day  - had we been picked to play at Hillsborough only the fact we are not as big a club as Liverpool would have prevented us from suffering a similar fate.My Liverpool friend who was pulled out of the Leppings Lane end and feared for his life that day made a very pertinent point to me. He said it has been like going on a train journey that ends up in a fatal crash and getting the blame for being on the train when it happened. I''m sure some fans may have had a drink - I''m not sure I have ever been to a Norwich game where they won''t have been any fans who have had a drink! Some people may have attended without tickets hoping to get in - did this make much difference to the fact that the game was held in a stadium without a safety certificate? the fact that there was a 1/2 mile ticket check around the ground the year before and 2 years later when we played Sunderland? the fact that there had been many similar incidents and scares at that end of the ground. At the moment it seems fashionable to blame the police - yes mistakes were made but they were put in that terrible position by the incompetence of an FA who did not give a damn about the fans and safety.Out of respect to the 96 innocent fans that did not come home from a game that day, family that mothers, sons, daughters, fathers will never see again - we should not disgrace out club or their memory. I don''t deny that Liverpool have some idiots - sadly it is hard to find a club that doesn''t. Last season at Villa I was ashamed to sit behind some racist idiots who made comments to stewards like ''are you lost? the jungle is that way'' - does this make us all racist.The wounds and memories of Hillsborough are still raw for many - especially after 23 years of being blamed for being at a match. All clubs have idiots - please don''t be one of ours.

[Bill 1,788]

An interesting take on one aspect of the debate

 

from a Liverpool fan

 

http://thekop.liverpoolfc.com/_NO-TICKET-NO-ENTRY/blog/6220497/173471.html

 

well worth a read

 

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Well I just checked again to be sure and there''s still not a single poster on this thread that has suggested we should sing it. Or say that they will sing it. So perhaps you''re just inventing an argument in order to come on here and call posters ignorant. Now is there any chance you could put poster names beside that claim Jon or are we all ignorant?

 

There is absolutely no chance of me joining in the "always the victim" song. There''s absolutely no chance I would join the scousers in a redition of their anthem which has also been suggested. But there is a chance I will join in the scousers "thatcher" song as a show of solidarity with my fellow fan. Would you Jon?

 

 

[Mister Chops 7]

Just to say that I don''t mind what''s agreed on here, as long as we''re still allowed to call Suarez a c**t.

[Bill 1,788]

I''m afraid nutty there has been much use, by some on here, of the old make it up and then argue against that instead, trick

 

" especially after 23 years of being blamed for being at a match "

 

I know of no one who has ever stated that and or have never read that sentiment expressed anywhere, other than on this thread. What I have read and have heard too many times is Liverpool fans attempting to get into a football ground without a ticket.

 

However that no more makes all Liverpool fans culpable, anymore than as racist remarks, by some City fans makes all City fans rascists.  But, by that token it doesn''t mean there has not been behaviour by Liverpool fans before and after that could, and did, cause deaths - Heysel and Athens. It is that light that the coments and sentiments of ALL being victims have been made. 

 

No one is seeking to denigrate the grief and loss suffered by the familes and friends of the 96 Liverpool fans killed - nor should anyone try to excuse or cover up the ''authorities'' part in that days tragedy either. But that latter understanding should not be confined to the ''authorities'' - it should apply to all.

 

Sadly Jon Moorhouses and Mick Dennis''s post seem to suggest that it should not apply to all.That I believe is merely shoving the pendulem the other way - a very worrying concept. 

 

ps what on earth is this supposed to mean ?

 

"had we been picked to play at Hillsborough only the fact we are not as big a club as Liverpool would have prevented us from suffering a similar fate"

 

 

[Timmah 0]

How long are we supposed to tiptoe round the Liverpool fans for? Should we applaud them in to the stadium as their protestations have apparently been vindicated?

I suggest we concentrate on OUR team and treat them like any other fan, to do anything but would be discriminatory and would surely only serve to accentuate the "chip on the shoulder" view that is bandied around.

It was a long while ago, no doubt the memory is fresh to those directly affected, but didn''t we always know that those that died were NOT to blame.

It is one of, if not, THE most tragic day in British football history. Football, unlike the 96, lives on. Let''s concentrate on the game, I''m sure Liverpool don''t want this to turn into some sort of roadshow.

OTBC

[Shankslad 0]

Initially I wasn''t going to post on this thread and have ignored many comments made.   But there are many posts above which come from intelligent people whose posts are very well thought out, realistic and productive

 

Disasters such as Hillsborough are never caused by ONE single event but are caused by of a chain of events and contributing factors.   Many of these contributing factors are predicatable and therefore avoidable providing proper planning and action is taken.   I believe the report correctly identifies these contributing factors.   There were people in positions of command who failed in their duty, whether they are taken to account for their incompetance or not remains to be seen

 

I''m sure Norwich fans on Saturday will be more than respectful to the memory of 96 who went to watch a match and never came back and their loved ones,  along with the injured survivors and survivors whose experience even to this day has left emotional and mental scars of that horrific disaster.

 

Apart from that - business as usual.   You can sing about signing on the dole, nicking hub caps etc. etc.    It won''t bother me, I''ve got a better job than most of you will ever have!!!

 

As for singing You''ll Never Walk Alone -  I''m sure just a round of applause would be a most significant gesture.    Of course it''s also a sad time for Norwich with the recent passing of John Bond.   I''ve never heard anything but good said of John, a great manager and true gentleman.

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Good post Shanks[Y]

 

Beaus made the point earlier that this thread was good with reasonable discussion. You''ve taken it back there rather than stand on a pedastel calling others ignorant or trying to make something out of nothing and words that haven''t been said.

 

Quick question buddy - my youtube link is very recent and it seems to be more than a minority. How much do the Liverpool public blame Thatcher?

 

 

[whistleblower 0]

hey shack - great post except for the fact it is total bo**ocks!!

"How many Liverpool fans caused a riot at a European Cup final in which innocent women and children died because of their actions" - funny how you''ve forgotten that one. if youre going to try to present a balanced argument - present all the facts not just ones that you think support your argument.

Why on Sunday didn''t we have wreaths and tracksuit numbers representing the number of Juventus fans who died as a result of Liverpool fans actions. What about "justice" for them?

[Shack Attack 0]

Heysel is a straw man here. Nobody has suggested that Liverpool fans were not responsible for the deaths of those Juventus fans.

[Shankslad 0]

Regarding the attitude in Liverpool towards Margaret Thatcher - she is as popular there as in Yorkshire and South Wales.   Her heavy handed and direct approach left a lot of people bitter in our industrial and manufacturing centres of the north.    She made an assuption based on the information she had at the time and like many people automatically thought Liverpool fans had caused the catastrophe.

 

It''s understandable why that assumption would be made by many people given the climate of the time with football fans in general and past problems with Liverpool fans specifically the Heysel Stadium and the terrible consequences of that day that caused all English fans and English football to be punished.because of mindless hooliganism   It wasn''t long before a different picture of Hillsborough began to emerge that indicated there was more to it than meets the eye but many people simply refused to accept anything other than their pre-concieved opinions.

 

Even to this day there are fans who insist on travelling to games even though they don''t have tickets - That was a contributing factor beyond doubt but was always a predictable situation whenever there was an all ticket game.   Liverpool fans who pay good money to get in have the same opinion about those type of supporters that everyone else does.

 

Maggies unpopularity regarding Hillsborough is caused by her faith in the appointed officers reporting to her.    I personally don''t hold her responsible for their failings

[Jim Smith 2,317]

Thank you Shanks lad for some balanced posts (although I am not sure a round of applause for Liverpool fans is something I would agree with other than as a thanks if they observe any minutes silence). What you have said in your posts and particularly the third paragraph is essentially what I have been trying to say but as a anon Liverpool fan we appear not to be able to even mention such things without being labelled ignorant by some on here. I think any plausible analysis of what happened that day has to acknowledfge a whole multitude of contributory factors rather than simply placing all of the blame on one person or organisation. That said the recent panel report makes it clear that by far the biggest single contributory factor was the negilgence/incompetence of the authorities both in the lead up to, during and immediately after the disaster. To be honest it was such a huge collective failure that i am not sure i agree with a witchhunt against particular individuals who may have been on duty that day (although the individuals who conspired to subsequently pervert the course of justice is a different matter) but i am sure i would feel differently had i been personally affected by the trajedy.

[Gardeningleave 0]

The link to a Liverpool blog made interesting reading, there is one thing being a fan and supporter of a club but being a fanatic is on a different level. I guess there are these types of fan who would do anything to see a game. They are in a minority and it is clear that is in all our interests if the clubs, police and ordinary fans get this element away from grounds. If you haven''t got a ticket and trying to get in without put them in a cell for a few hours, one without sky tv of course.

GL

[Waveney Canary 0]

  We made our gesture for Hillsborough at the West Ham game. Saturday is about Mr Bond. No stupid chanting or signing just the usual OTBC etc. Lets go and get 3 points and revenge for the drubbing at carra rud last season.

[TIL 1010 4,746]

[quote user="Mick Dennis"]Why don''t we look at CCTV of the crowd at the Norwich game? Because there wasn''t any. This was 1989. There was rudimentary CCTV at Hillsborough: two tapes. They went missing from the locked police control room on the night of the tragedy. But the police did not have any intelligence, from the Norwich game or anywhere else, that fans had recently turned up late in order to try to get in free. We know this, because all their briefing papers were released to the inquiry. The agitation outside started at 2.40 -- 20 mins before kick-off, not outrageously late -- when it became clear to everyone that there weren''t enough turnstiles to process the numbers in time. The myth of fans turning up late, drunk, ticketless and determined to force their way in was created after the deaths. This is my last word on this thread but, come on guys, don''t base your beliefs (or worse, your actions) on stuff we were told 23 years ago but which have been comprehensibly investigated and disproved. If you can''t be bothered to read the report, just ask yourself why the police altered so many statements and then accept the report''s summary: the fans were not to blame. I hated the Suarez t-shirts and the Tom Adeyemi incident and have written about both. I was at The Sun at the time of Heysel, so don''t need telling about that either. But, at Hillsborough, 96 ordinary football fans died. It really, genuinely could have been us. They were the victims and it really wasn''t their fault. If we sing ''''that song'''', on Saturday or in subsequent seasons, we can''t shout ''but we don''t mean Hillsborough'' and so it will always be a deeply offensive and hideously nasty song. We are Norwich. We sing on our own often. We don''t need to recycle a Mancunian insult. OTBC[/quote]

For obvious reasons i have stayed well clear of all threads regarding Hillsborough on here but have read every single post on every thread and whilst they have been some excellent observations by many posters unfortunately as soon as i dip my toe into the water the usual suspects will seize the opportuntiy to turn it into a slanging match coupled with anti police bile etc.

I have quoted this particular post by Mick Dennis who states he was in fact a Sun journo back in the eighties,that same Sun which provoked outrage of its reporting of the tragedy and now he wishes to be portrayed as a poacher turned gamekeeper whilst claiming some morale high ground because he has read the report whilst lecturing us mere mortals on what actually happened.

I was a serving Police officer in Norwich back in 1989 and was one of two sent to Villa Park that very day in uniform to assist and advise West Midlands Police on what to expect from Norwich City fans.I was also at Hillsborough for the first semi final to be held after the tragedy in 1993 v Sunderland.On that occassion six of us were sent in uniform.I was the football intelligence officer for Norwich City from 1985 until 1993 and have been part of the matchday operations involving Norwich City all over England from games such as those already mentioned to places from Blackburn in the north to Exeter down south and every ground covered by the Met.

I speak from personal experience and i have also been on duty at Anfield and believe me the Liverpool fan at home has no comparison to the Liverpool fan away.

Hillsborough was a tragedy of monumental proportions and was a watershed for all involved in football.I could run on for pages here about my experiences of meeting officers at conferences held in the aftermath but it would achieve nothing on forums such as this so i will not be responding to anything raised by this post and i hope people respect my view.

All i am now posting here is facts from Villa Park and i will leave others to look at the big picture and judge for themselves if there is a theme developing.

2.30pm at Villa Park saw 19,000 City fans in the ground but only 4,000 Everton fans.

109 arrests were made that day 102 Everton fans and 7 Norwich fans.Offences ranged from being drunk,theft and public order.

 

[PurpleCanary 5,558]

[quote user="TIL 1010"]

I have quoted this particular post by Mick Dennis who states he was in fact a Sun journo back in the eighties,that same Sun which provoked outrage of its reporting of the tragedy and now he wishes to be portrayed as a poacher turned gamekeeper whilst claiming some morale high ground because he has read the report whilst lecturing us mere mortals on what actually happened.

 

[/quote]

 

That betrays a lack of knowledge of how journalism works and in particular how it worked on The Sun under Kelvin MacKenzie. As far as I am aware Mick Dennis had nothing to do with the Hillsborough story. To find him guilty by association for The Sun''s coverage is on a par with blaming a wine waiter for the Titanic disaster. For an account of the process that produced The Sun''s coverage:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-19507065

 

[Bill 1,788]

Then why raise the matter in the first place, if had no bearing (or association) with the discussion ?

 

The OP had originally asked that no one attending Saturdays game sings the ''always a victim'' words.  What this thread has done, amongst various things, is get towards the heart of why some fans have some sort of nodding agreement with the sentiments that underpin those words. Maybe not the belief that it is appropriate or suitable to sing those words, but a thought that not everything is as black and white as it is currently being portrayed.

 

Yes, it is understood that there were failings within the police and other''services, before, during and after the deaths. 

 

And now there is a small smudgeon of acceptance from those who would wish there to be a ''cover up'' elsewhere that maybe a few fans were drunk, maybe some did and do try to get in for free ........but all fans do that. And it is that codical that has caused the disquiet.

 

No, all fans don''t do that. Though there is much evidence that football fans from Liverpool (both teams) do that, and did do that as a matter of routine. I would suggest then that this continual cover up is what leads to such songs at football grounds - and a feeling of some form of undertsanding of these words by so many who have witnessed these events.

 

There is a biblical saying about ''taking the mote out of one''s eye ... etc''. I think were there to be a bit more of that coming from Merseysid,e there would be a lot less cynicism from elsewhere

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Yosser Hughes 0]

[quote user="Shankslad"]

Regarding the attitude in Liverpool towards Margaret Thatcher - she is as popular there as in Yorkshire and South Wales.   Her heavy handed and direct approach left a lot of people bitter in our industrial and manufacturing centres of the north.    She made an assuption based on the information she had at the time and like many people automatically thought Liverpool fans had caused the catastrophe.

 

It''s understandable why that assumption would be made by many people given the climate of the time with football fans in general and past problems with Liverpool fans specifically the Heysel Stadium and the terrible consequences of that day that caused all English fans and English football to be punished.because of mindless hooliganism   It wasn''t long before a different picture of Hillsborough began to emerge that indicated there was more to it than meets the eye but many people simply refused to accept anything other than their pre-concieved opinions.

 

Even to this day there are fans who insist on travelling to games even though they don''t have tickets - That was a contributing factor beyond doubt but was always a predictable situation whenever there was an all ticket game.   Liverpool fans who pay good money to get in have the same opinion about those type of supporters that everyone else does.

 

Maggies unpopularity regarding Hillsborough is caused by her faith in the appointed officers reporting to her.    I personally don''t hold her responsible for their failings

[/quote]Some good posts Shanks, but you fail to address what actually occured on 29th May 1985 in Belgium too.I was at Heysel that day and the Juventus fans were the main instigators of the trouble that day.  Of course many LFC fans went too far as well, but as with Hillsborough there were many more people to blame than just the fans of one football club for what happened.

[Captain Holt 522]

Doesn''t matter who the main instigators were, you killed 39 rival fans.

[Mick Dennis 0]

I left the Sun in 1986.

[GMF 742]

Just to be clear, there were 32 Italian deaths, 4 Belgians, 2 French and one from Northern Ireland. Either way it''s 39 too many