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Rudolph Hucker

BLAME YOURSELVES YOU FORELOCK TUGGING MUPPETTS!!!

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Clubs are the fans. They define the nature of the Club. They have a collective aspiration, tolerance and acceptance.

Norwich supporters are loyal;  but they have allowed that loyalty to be spun and manipulated into blind and thoughtless obedience. They have allowed the Club to take the piss out of them!

The supporters of Norwich have denied themselves choice and expression by allowing themselves into being marketed to contempt through season ticket sales. I don''t care if I never hear an idiot phone in caller justifying themselves with ''I''m a season ticket holder'' or ''24 - 25 thousand every week deserve better.'' You don''t deserve better and you deserve bugger all just for driving a few hours and spending your day watching Norwich City at another ground.

You are having the long drawn out atritional death I warned you about years ago when it was time to wake the Club up by exercising your choice and telling Doncaster and Co to shove their marketing where the sun doesn''t shine. If you believe you have exercised your will by buying the ticket and turning up like a sheep then do not complain about where you find yourself now. For me, all you have done is given life blood to a regime to the detriment of fellow supporters.

You just love the platitudes about how loyal you are; you just love singing ''have you ever seen a crowd'' to visiting fans before they take three points off us and you honestly think that you deserve something for your concession loaded collective attendance.

Nothing shouts louder than a bank of empty seats. I have said this many times before. It is the short and sharp message that the people who run our Club truly understand. Other Clubs have done just this and do not get taken for granted. We sell out, overpay our players and fall into complacency.

If Norwich are playing well and winning with passion in League One next season I will go and watch them. If they don''t inspire me to go I will not even consider bothering trying to buy a ticket. If there are 10000 seats up for grabs each game there is a genuine reason for players and management to actually try.

I blame Roeder primarily, I know who others blame, but don''t pass the buck. Be honest and blame yourselves too if you have thoughtlessly fed the management consultant groomed media machine into thinking they could do what they liked without repercussions.

If we lose the next two games I would love to hear Carrow Road is empty for the third. The players who have failed deserve to play in an empty stadium, the Directors deserve to look out on one; and why put yourselves through the agony? In particular, why would anyone bother to go to Portman Road? Don''t let anyone mock you, you have been mocked enough.

Blame yourselves!

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Of course it''s hard to disagree with what has been put.  But fans don''t need to hear that they are at fault right now.  Talk about kicking people when they are down.

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I appreciate that WAY but I go to games home and away and i don''t take what Rudolph said as insulting us. He is just saying what I think is true. Stupidly however i suppose i will be at the Carra again next year. Wibble!!

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Brilliant post and sums up what many of us have been saying and predicting for many years now.

Here''s hoping that the board''s latest desperate roll of the dice to sell season tickets (and by the sounds of it, it has worked - says it all) by appointing Gunn is their last.

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[quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]

Clubs are the fans. They define the nature of the Club. They have a collective aspiration, tolerance and acceptance.

Norwich supporters are loyal;  but they have allowed that loyalty to be spun and manipulated into blind and thoughtless obedience. They have allowed the Club to take the piss out of them!

The supporters of Norwich have denied themselves choice and expression by allowing themselves into being marketed to contempt through season ticket sales.

[/quote]I agree wholeheartedly sir....in fact the lines I''ve quoted are as close to perfection regarding the current state of our fans and the con that has been perpetrated against us by the club. While the club points to the excellent gates we have and says that we''re all in this together - it''s just not true. Our fans are trapped by direct debits to the club while the board patted themselves on the back suggesting they are doing the right thing because the fans are voting with their feet.It''s like democracy. We all have a vote and a say - nobody listens,ever did or ever wanted too.

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[quote user="Bury Yellow"]I appreciate that WAY but I go to games home and away and i don''t take what Rudolph said as insulting us. He is just saying what I think is true. Stupidly however i suppose i will be at the Carra again next year. Wibble!![/quote]

Well you may not but I do.

We all know the problems at the club, over 40 years we have been supporting, we have ALL known this season and season past the problems there are, and maybe stupidly we hoped things would get better, with PC and Delia talking about investment.

How wrong is it to have hope?

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[quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]

Clubs are the fans. They define the nature of the Club. They have a collective aspiration, tolerance and acceptance.

Norwich supporters are loyal;  but they have allowed that loyalty to be spun and manipulated into blind and thoughtless obedience. They have allowed the Club to take the piss out of them!

The supporters of Norwich have denied themselves choice and expression by allowing themselves into being marketed to contempt through season ticket sales. I don''t care if I never hear an idiot phone in caller justifying themselves with ''I''m a season ticket holder'' or ''24 - 25 thousand every week deserve better.'' You don''t deserve better and you deserve bugger all just for driving a few hours and spending your day watching Norwich City at another ground.

You are having the long drawn out atritional death I warned you about years ago when it was time to wake the Club up by exercising your choice and telling Doncaster and Co to shove their marketing where the sun doesn''t shine. If you believe you have exercised your will by buying the ticket and turning up like a sheep then do not complain about where you find yourself now. For me, all you have done is given life blood to a regime to the detriment of fellow supporters.

You just love the platitudes about how loyal you are; you just love singing ''have you ever seen a crowd'' to visiting fans before they take three points off us and you honestly think that you deserve something for your concession loaded collective attendance.

Nothing shouts louder than a bank of empty seats. I have said this many times before. It is the short and sharp message that the people who run our Club truly understand. Other Clubs have done just this and do not get taken for granted. We sell out, overpay our players and fall into complacency.

If Norwich are playing well and winning with passion in League One next season I will go and watch them. If they don''t inspire me to go I will not even consider bothering trying to buy a ticket. If there are 10000 seats up for grabs each game there is a genuine reason for players and management to actually try.

I blame Roeder primarily, I know who others blame, but don''t pass the buck. Be honest and blame yourselves too if you have thoughtlessly fed the management consultant groomed media machine into thinking they could do what they liked without repercussions.

If we lose the next two games I would love to hear Carrow Road is empty for the third. The players who have failed deserve to play in an empty stadium, the Directors deserve to look out on one; and why put yourselves through the agony? In particular, why would anyone bother to go to Portman Road? Don''t let anyone mock you, you have been mocked enough.

Blame yourselves!

[/quote]agree with alot of you post empty seat speak for itself etc...but sorry for being a loyal city fan

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[quote user="city-till-i-die"][quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]

Clubs are the fans. They define the nature of the Club. They have a collective aspiration, tolerance and acceptance.

Norwich supporters are loyal;  but they have allowed that loyalty to be spun and manipulated into blind and thoughtless obedience. They have allowed the Club to take the piss out of them!

The supporters of Norwich have denied themselves choice and expression by allowing themselves into being marketed to contempt through season ticket sales. I don''t care if I never hear an idiot phone in caller justifying themselves with ''I''m a season ticket holder'' or ''24 - 25 thousand every week deserve better.'' You don''t deserve better and you deserve bugger all just for driving a few hours and spending your day watching Norwich City at another ground.

You are having the long drawn out atritional death I warned you about years ago when it was time to wake the Club up by exercising your choice and telling Doncaster and Co to shove their marketing where the sun doesn''t shine. If you believe you have exercised your will by buying the ticket and turning up like a sheep then do not complain about where you find yourself now. For me, all you have done is given life blood to a regime to the detriment of fellow supporters.

You just love the platitudes about how loyal you are; you just love singing ''have you ever seen a crowd'' to visiting fans before they take three points off us and you honestly think that you deserve something for your concession loaded collective attendance.

Nothing shouts louder than a bank of empty seats. I have said this many times before. It is the short and sharp message that the people who run our Club truly understand. Other Clubs have done just this and do not get taken for granted. We sell out, overpay our players and fall into complacency.

If Norwich are playing well and winning with passion in League One next season I will go and watch them. If they don''t inspire me to go I will not even consider bothering trying to buy a ticket. If there are 10000 seats up for grabs each game there is a genuine reason for players and management to actually try.

I blame Roeder primarily, I know who others blame, but don''t pass the buck. Be honest and blame yourselves too if you have thoughtlessly fed the management consultant groomed media machine into thinking they could do what they liked without repercussions.

If we lose the next two games I would love to hear Carrow Road is empty for the third. The players who have failed deserve to play in an empty stadium, the Directors deserve to look out on one; and why put yourselves through the agony? In particular, why would anyone bother to go to Portman Road? Don''t let anyone mock you, you have been mocked enough.

Blame yourselves!

[/quote]agree with alot of you post empty seat speak for itself etc...but sorry for being a loyal city fan[/quote]

It seems that by being loyal we are being disloyal   [:|][:D]

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[quote user="WeAreYellows49"][quote user="city-till-i-die"][quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]

Clubs are the fans. They define the nature of the Club. They have a collective aspiration, tolerance and acceptance.

Norwich supporters are loyal;  but they have allowed that loyalty to be spun and manipulated into blind and thoughtless obedience. They have allowed the Club to take the piss out of them!

The supporters of Norwich have denied themselves choice and expression by allowing themselves into being marketed to contempt through season ticket sales. I don''t care if I never hear an idiot phone in caller justifying themselves with ''I''m a season ticket holder'' or ''24 - 25 thousand every week deserve better.'' You don''t deserve better and you deserve bugger all just for driving a few hours and spending your day watching Norwich City at another ground.

You are having the long drawn out atritional death I warned you about years ago when it was time to wake the Club up by exercising your choice and telling Doncaster and Co to shove their marketing where the sun doesn''t shine. If you believe you have exercised your will by buying the ticket and turning up like a sheep then do not complain about where you find yourself now. For me, all you have done is given life blood to a regime to the detriment of fellow supporters.

You just love the platitudes about how loyal you are; you just love singing ''have you ever seen a crowd'' to visiting fans before they take three points off us and you honestly think that you deserve something for your concession loaded collective attendance.

Nothing shouts louder than a bank of empty seats. I have said this many times before. It is the short and sharp message that the people who run our Club truly understand. Other Clubs have done just this and do not get taken for granted. We sell out, overpay our players and fall into complacency.

If Norwich are playing well and winning with passion in League One next season I will go and watch them. If they don''t inspire me to go I will not even consider bothering trying to buy a ticket. If there are 10000 seats up for grabs each game there is a genuine reason for players and management to actually try.

I blame Roeder primarily, I know who others blame, but don''t pass the buck. Be honest and blame yourselves too if you have thoughtlessly fed the management consultant groomed media machine into thinking they could do what they liked without repercussions.

If we lose the next two games I would love to hear Carrow Road is empty for the third. The players who have failed deserve to play in an empty stadium, the Directors deserve to look out on one; and why put yourselves through the agony? In particular, why would anyone bother to go to Portman Road? Don''t let anyone mock you, you have been mocked enough.

Blame yourselves!

[/quote]agree with alot of you post empty seat speak for itself etc...but sorry for being a loyal city fan[/quote]

It seems that by being loyal we are being disloyal   [:|][:D]

[/quote]

Not exactly but there is such a thing as killing with kindness. 

Tough love is required right now.

 

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No WAY, I like you don''t give up hope but after 56 years of supporting this club my hope is wearing thin. Hope when they appoint a manager we are sure will be a failure. Hope when a player is signed where we have to go on Wikipedia to find out who he is. Hope when they sign players in the most crucial January for years and we either get a poor quality wally or we can''t pass an opinion because Gunn won''t play them. Hope that one day this club''s decisions will not be by committee. Hope that one day we won''t have a patsy as a Chief Executive.

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[quote user="Bury Yellow"]No WAY, I like you don''t give up hope but after 56 years of supporting this club my hope is wearing thin. Hope when they appoint a manager we are sure will be a failure. Hope when a player is signed where we have to go on Wikipedia to find out who he is. Hope when they sign players in the most crucial January for years and we either get a poor quality wally or we can''t pass an opinion because Gunn won''t play them. Hope that one day this club''s decisions will not be by committee. Hope that one day we won''t have a patsy as a Chief Executive.[/quote]

My hope went a while back, so I know where you are coming from, with a mere 40 years of support under my belt.

 

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Rude Old, living up to your reputation as usual I see! Another piece of tough writing.

But.....Is our club really defined by the fans? Not sure on this one Rude Old. To me there are many kinds of City fan, some who (like me) go to all home games and a few away and are long standing season ticket holders. A sterling few go to every single game. Some live away through work etc and support their team from afar through the internet and occasional glimpses on TV. Then we have the armchair fan who could go if he could be bothered, but isn''t and is quietly pleased with himself for saving himself so much money and grief. Then there are those who just go to the odd game, don''t even support Norwich but just want something to do on a Saturday afternoon. A real mix.

Yes, most of us who currently attend CR have tolerance (up to a point) and many of us have aspiration (some of us, me included, considered too high by many other fans) but I really hope none of us have acceptance. I certainly don''t accept what is happening to our club Rude Old, and haven''t done so for a good few years.

Loyalty. Yes the spin machines play heavily on this one, a recent shining example being the annual glossy with our season ticket renewal package. Dragging up some players to extol the virtues of our remarkable fan base, and besides them a few fans who had been going for years and their reasons for doing so. Does this make me want to purchase the ticket again and again. No, not for a minute.

Am I though attending as a season ticket holder because I think the board/marketing people want me to do so? No, no and a thousand times no. I go because one, I want to and two, because I can. That means two important aspects to me (I am only speaking for myself here), I can just about afford to and I live next door to the ground. I don''t like all I see, and I doubt this will change anytime soon. However I go because, if you like, it''s who I am. I was brought up to go and support the club whatever the league, financial position, whatever the good or bad, I fell in love and have never fallen out of it. Fair enough, there have been a few tiffs along the way. I even walked away for a couple of seasons (Chase Out season boycotting home games and when Mike Walker was sacked) but I came back. I don''t pretend to be even contemplate that what I do is the right thing, merely it''s the right thing for me. Will there be another occasion when I say enough is enough? There may well be, but it won''t have anything to do with marketing, pleas for support from players or management (and certainly not the board).

As for empty seats, yes, they shout loud and clear to the board that their a certain number of fans are not happy, but I really think that they already know that. I don''t have them down as being too bright collectively but even they can''t fail to appreciate that under their tenure things have rarely got better and in fact for four (or is it five) years it''s got steadily worse.

Roeder didn''t help matters and made one or two really ill timed judgments, but I don''t blame him completely. It depends on how much or how long you measure our demise Rude Old. One season, you could say, oh well a bit of bad luck, a few injuries, bad decisions by the ref, etc etc....things will get better. Season two, er, maybe there''s something else. Season three. Questions should be asked. Season four?

And so on.

Who do I blame, I think you probably know the answer to that one Rude Old. Do I blame myself for supporting their slick marketing machine? No, because I don''t, far from it. The club is bigger than the board, though at the moment it''s battered and close to a fall few of us have witnessed. It''s hard to be a city supporter tonight Rude Old, but I can''t walk away, even if a large percentage of fellow fans may mock or decry my choices.

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[quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]

Clubs are the fans. They define the nature of the Club. They have a collective aspiration, tolerance and acceptance.

Norwich supporters are loyal;  but they have allowed that loyalty to be spun and manipulated into blind and thoughtless obedience. They have allowed the Club to take the piss out of them!

The supporters of Norwich have denied themselves choice and expression by allowing themselves into being marketed to contempt through season ticket sales. I don''t care if I never hear an idiot phone in caller justifying themselves with ''I''m a season ticket holder'' or ''24 - 25 thousand every week deserve better.'' You don''t deserve better and you deserve bugger all just for driving a few hours and spending your day watching Norwich City at another ground.

You are having the long drawn out atritional death I warned you about years ago when it was time to wake the Club up by exercising your choice and telling Doncaster and Co to shove their marketing where the sun doesn''t shine. If you believe you have exercised your will by buying the ticket and turning up like a sheep then do not complain about where you find yourself now. For me, all you have done is given life blood to a regime to the detriment of fellow supporters.

You just love the platitudes about how loyal you are; you just love singing ''have you ever seen a crowd'' to visiting fans before they take three points off us and you honestly think that you deserve something for your concession loaded collective attendance.

Nothing shouts louder than a bank of empty seats. I have said this many times before. It is the short and sharp message that the people who run our Club truly understand. Other Clubs have done just this and do not get taken for granted. We sell out, overpay our players and fall into complacency.

If Norwich are playing well and winning with passion in League One next season I will go and watch them. If they don''t inspire me to go I will not even consider bothering trying to buy a ticket. If there are 10000 seats up for grabs each game there is a genuine reason for players and management to actually try.

I blame Roeder primarily, I know who others blame, but don''t pass the buck. Be honest and blame yourselves too if you have thoughtlessly fed the management consultant groomed media machine into thinking they could do what they liked without repercussions.

If we lose the next two games I would love to hear Carrow Road is empty for the third. The players who have failed deserve to play in an empty stadium, the Directors deserve to look out on one; and why put yourselves through the agony? In particular, why would anyone bother to go to Portman Road? Don''t let anyone mock you, you have been mocked enough.

Blame yourselves!

[/quote]

 

People renewing a season ticket for this season could hardly be blamed for failing to foresee the disaster of wrecking ball Roeder that unfolded and could hardly be accused of being forelock tugging muppets!

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[quote user="gazzathegreat"]Rude Old, living up to your reputation as usual I see! Another piece of tough writing. But.....Is our club really defined by the fans? Not sure on this one Rude Old. To me there are many kinds of City fan, some who (like me) go to all home games and a few away and are long standing season ticket holders. A sterling few go to every single game. Some live away through work etc and support their team from afar through the internet and occasional glimpses on TV. Then we have the armchair fan who could go if he could be bothered, but isn''t and is quietly pleased with himself for saving himself so much money and grief. Then there are those who just go to the odd game, don''t even support Norwich but just want something to do on a Saturday afternoon. A real mix. Yes, most of us who currently attend CR have tolerance (up to a point) and many of us have aspiration (some of us, me included, considered too high by many other fans) but I really hope none of us have acceptance. I certainly don''t accept what is happening to our club Rude Old, and haven''t done so for a good few years. Loyalty. Yes the spin machines play heavily on this one, a recent shining example being the annual glossy with our season ticket renewal package. Dragging up some players to extol the virtues of our remarkable fan base, and besides them a few fans who had been going for years and their reasons for doing so. Does this make me want to purchase the ticket again and again. No, not for a minute. Am I though attending as a season ticket holder because I think the board/marketing people want me to do so? No, no and a thousand times no. I go because one, I want to and two, because I can. That means two important aspects to me (I am only speaking for myself here), I can just about afford to and I live next door to the ground. I don''t like all I see, and I doubt this will change anytime soon. However I go because, if you like, it''s who I am. I was brought up to go and support the club whatever the league, financial position, whatever the good or bad, I fell in love and have never fallen out of it. Fair enough, there have been a few tiffs along the way. I even walked away for a couple of seasons (Chase Out season boycotting home games and when Mike Walker was sacked) but I came back. I don''t pretend to be even contemplate that what I do is the right thing, merely it''s the right thing for me. Will there be another occasion when I say enough is enough? There may well be, but it won''t have anything to do with marketing, pleas for support from players or management (and certainly not the board). As for empty seats, yes, they shout loud and clear to the board that their a certain number of fans are not happy, but I really think that they already know that. I don''t have them down as being too bright collectively but even they can''t fail to appreciate that under their tenure things have rarely got better and in fact for four (or is it five) years it''s got steadily worse. Roeder didn''t help matters and made one or two really ill timed judgments, but I don''t blame him completely. It depends on how much or how long you measure our demise Rude Old. One season, you could say, oh well a bit of bad luck, a few injuries, bad decisions by the ref, etc etc....things will get better. Season two, er, maybe there''s something else. Season three. Questions should be asked. Season four? And so on. Who do I blame, I think you probably know the answer to that one Rude Old. Do I blame myself for supporting their slick marketing machine? No, because I don''t, far from it. The club is bigger than the board, though at the moment it''s battered and close to a fall few of us have witnessed. It''s hard to be a city supporter tonight Rude Old, but I can''t walk away, even if a large percentage of fellow fans may mock or decry my choices.[/quote]

Great post as ever

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[quote user="Bury Yellow"]No WAY, I like you don''t give up hope but after 56 years of supporting this club my hope is wearing thin. Hope when they appoint a manager we are sure will be a failure. Hope when a player is signed where we have to go on Wikipedia to find out who he is. Hope when they sign players in the most crucial January for years and we either get a poor quality wally or we can''t pass an opinion because Gunn won''t play them. Hope that one day this club''s decisions will not be by committee. Hope that one day we won''t have a patsy as a Chief Executive.[/quote]

 

Bury,  think we saw the Club die today. We now have a collection of Board members that want out, players that wont be here next year and will struggle , YES STRUGGLE in league one. All we will have left is what now professes to be the Youth and Reserve team. As you pointed out to me today Leicester have kept the team together (through money), we will not.

It is , and has been for years, all about investment. Not the occassional million but tens of millions and it was the duty of the incumbent board to find it. Cullum is a red herring; over the years there must have been lots of people who would have put serious money into the club if only our board had actively sought it. We were once a potential Premiership club, with land asset and huge "footfall" potential. but of course our board were ill advised and wanted their cake and eat it.

Sadly the cake is now stale, and we will watch our youth team try and survive in league one next year.

 

 

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I''m stuck with Colchester and Lincoln City and my daughter with Norwich.

We have no intention of changing, whatever happens.

PS: She hasn''t been to the Blue Square Conference twice as I have but if that should happen I think she''ll still be there.

All of you can switch to a potentially more successful club if you wish. 

Or post Board Out without the slightest ****** idea as to who will replace them. [:|]

 

 

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[quote user="Sons of Boadicea"]

And you are all also to blame for the current global recession, if only you had not voted for Labour.......

[/quote]

I think that bit might be right actually..................[+o(]

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It''s only through supporting the club in the tough times that you can appreciate the good times - a bit like life really.

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Well, I didn''t vote for George Bush and the way I read it the global recession is as much as result of the US "sub-prime" fiasco as anything else but hey-ho.

So to summarise Rudolph''s post, he is somehow more of a fan than me because he DOESN''T go to the games and is not contributing to the Club''s coffers.

I understand all the arguments but it seems a rather crazy way of expressing ''support''.

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[quote user="Felixfan"]

It''s only through supporting the club in the tough times that you can appreciate the good times - a bit like life really.

[/quote]

Sorry but the current crisis goes way beyond good times or bad times, this is the culmination of years of mismanagement by a defunct group of people who if they had once ounce of decency would fall on their proverbial sword.  

Frankly if they don’t we need to do our utmost to force them out for the overall good of our club as then and only then will we stand a chance of reclaiming our club, we did it before and we will do it again 

We all applauded them of at Craven Cottage, I was there at Elland road in 1995 as well but this is inexcusable, the spin, the lies, the deceit and the stinking rank incompetence must not and can not be tolerated anymore.

 

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[quote user="jetstream"]Well, I didn''t vote for George Bush and the way I read it the global recession is as much as result of the US "sub-prime" fiasco as anything else but hey-ho.

So to summarise Rudolph''s post, he is somehow more of a fan than me because he DOESN''T go to the games and is not contributing to the Club''s coffers.

I understand all the arguments but it seems a rather crazy way of expressing ''support''.[/quote]What is crazy, if we all did what Rudolph has done 3-4 years back, the club would have been relegated before the Olympics.

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No matter how heated up we get on here about the board- nothing will ever happen.Excuses will be made by the board apologists (if there are any on here) and the board outers will quieten down until the next inevitable defeat.Oh and Rudolph-get off your damn high-horse. the fans are not to blame, the management are not to blame, the players are not even to blame.The pathetic board are to blame- one couple in particular. Yes we probably should have acted way before now but that doesnt mean we deserve what is happening now [:@]

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One way or another this club will still be here when I am long gone.  Until then, I will take my son and he will take his.  If I have to watch in League One I will do so.

I don''t go to support the marketing dept or the Chief Executive and if I were to stop going it wouldn''t be because some sancitmonious keyboard preacher tells me not to.

I go because I love my club.  I love football.

I have no faith in the board and nor do I support them but I will always support NCFC.  So many people on this board miss the point.  Its not about the board and its not about oneupmanship.  It is about supporting the club that we have loved since before we can remember.  Its about the good times and the bad times that make the good times so good.

Fuck off and support Man Utd if you don''t understand that.

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[quote user="Camuldonum"]

I''m stuck with Colchester and Lincoln City and my daughter with Norwich.

We have no intention of changing (do any of us?), whatever happens.

PS: She hasn''t been to the Blue Square Conference twice as I have but if that should happen I think she''ll still be there.

All of you can switch to a potentially more successful club if you wish. Did anyone even hint at doing that?  And if not why did you introduce it?

Or post Board Out without the slightest ****** idea as to who will replace them. That''s what we did in the mid 90s, so..............? [:|]

[/quote]

It all goes to motive, your honour..................

[:|]

Strange thing - motive. But I''ll leave that for another time.

OTBC

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