How low can we go?

[OTBC 0]

I''ve supported Norwich since 94,95. First game was at home to Chelsea, Ashley Ward made his debut in a 3-0 win. I think it put us into 8th or 9th, at the time relegation seemed unthinkable yet we ended up winning only one of our last 15 or something and in the first division. Our ''loan'' to the first division ended up being rather longer than anticipated including some awful defects, West Brom and Port Vale spring to mind.Anyway, my point, in all this time I''ve never known the club to be in a more shambolic state. In another thread I''ve said that Doherty should be released which I stand by. What Is telling though is that players of Doherty, and to a lesser extent, Fotheringham''s ability turn Norwich down. Have we really sunk that low? Doherty is a joke of a defender and Fotheringham an outcast in Switzerland. Both seem to feel they''re too good for Norwich. If that''s the case, who are we going to sign this summer? We''ve had one of the poorest seasons i can recall, we release the only player we have capable of changing a game and now we cannot even retain two extremely average players. Given the size, and more importantly quality (or lack of), of the squad I fear for the future of our club. I just cannot see Roeder being able to bring in players able to keep us in the Championship let alone challenge for promotion; League one beckons.

[haggis 0]

Frustrating times indeed for City fans and with our lack of ambition from the board in previous years it is not suprising we are all so despontant. We have to trust Glen Roeder will put together a decent side for next season, after all, he must have something in the pipline knowing the stick he would get after letting Huckerby go! Lets hope the board backs him! This club needed an overhaul and my god are we getting one. Trust Roader, we have no choice.

[whoareyou? 0]

It''s a sign of how low the game has gone IMHO. Players of average ability have one decent run of games and think they can earn what they want, where they want.

Fotheringham played well at times last season and was a major plus in getting us out of the mire....but i reckon it would not be to difficult to find someone of similar ability for little money elsewhere if he decides the grass is greener elsewhere. From what i have seen of some of the play off games in the leageus below us, there are a few decent players around who would want to better themselves.

[alex_ncfc 662]

First off, wow, that Chelsea game was my first game too [:P]

Secondly I agree - I don''t know why people get so bloody defensive when it comes to Fotheringham, he is sh*t! He''s not good enough for a team who wants to challenge in this league, and if he was so good, why was he sat out of contract/clubless for about a year before we signed him?! He is an outcast as you rightly say. If we rely on players of this ilk then we deserved to finish last season where we finished - the table doesn''t lie, it reflects the quality of the players strangely enough [^o)]

Norwich City should never be in a position when players like ''Fozzy'' and the Doc are holding us to ransom over contracts.

[scott 0]

Another Doc bashing I see!

 

Doc was one of our best players particularly when he came in after Taylor went back to Brum. Yes he is limited but is a capable defender in the championshipo. The club should have signed Taylor in January as he was more classy than Doc or Shacks thus making defending not quite so nailbiting and he can score goals someting neither doc or Shacks can do.

 

Fozzy was a different player to the unfit version we saw last year. Again he isn''t a wonder player (if he was he wouldn''t be at a lowly Championship club!) but his workrate and desire make him a must to keep but obviously not at all costs. I''d like to see the club get another midfielder seriously good enough to challenge Fozzy and Russell not out their depth loanees one of whom some think is the dog bo**ocks just cause he comes Arsenal. To call Fozzy s**t is so wide of the mark!

 

With our painfully thin squad letting Doc and Fozzy go wouldn''t be a good move even if they aren''t great players. 

 

But I agree with one thing the club do seem to be slipping as a result of the prudent nature of the board and I think going by what we''ve seen so far the chances of Roeder being the manager capable of getting us promoted to the Premiership look slim.

[Camuldonum 0]

[quote user="OTBC"]I''ve supported Norwich since 94,95. First game was at home to Chelsea, Ashley Ward made his debut in a 3-0 win. I think it put us into 8th or 9th, at the time relegation seemed unthinkable yet we ended up winning only one of our last 15 or something and in the first division. Our ''loan'' to the first division ended up being rather longer than anticipated including some awful defects, West Brom and Port Vale spring to mind.

Anyway, my point, in all this time I''ve never known the club to be in a more shambolic state. In another thread I''ve said that Doherty should be released which I stand by. What Is telling though is that players of Doherty, and to a lesser extent, Fotheringham''s ability turn Norwich down. Have we really sunk that low? Doherty is a joke of a defender and Fotheringham an outcast in Switzerland. Both seem to feel they''re too good for Norwich. If that''s the case, who are we going to sign this summer? We''ve had one of the poorest seasons i can recall, we release the only player we have capable of changing a game and now we cannot even retain two extremely average players. Given the size, and more importantly quality (or lack of), of the squad I fear for the future of our club. I just cannot see Roeder being able to bring in players able to keep us in the Championship let alone challenge for promotion; League one beckons.
[/quote]

With great respect I don''t think all your assumptions are correct.  I have no information, of course, but my bet is that the "turning down" emanates from the Agent rather than the player.  Unless the player instructs otherwise, the Agent''s job is to get the best possible deal.  Whether Mr Docherty or Mr Fotheringham are any good or not is a matter of opinion: I''d have Fotheringham at Colchester (that''s a joke) but I''d be concerned about Mr Docherty''s reported propensity for holding on to people which many refs (particularly at lower levels) tend to "misread" to the disadvantage of the defence.

If my assumptions are correct then it becomes a case of Hardball between the Manager and the Agent.  If the Manager wins a deal is struck.  If not - the player goes up for sale.

I know nothing about Mr Docherty aside from the various viewpoints on here but it has been reported (whether right or wrong) that Fotheringham has had an approach from Charlton and the Scottish papers have reported interest from Scottish clubs, one also claiming that Mrs F does not like it in your part of the world and has removed herself back to Scotland.  Regardless of whether any of this is true or not expect The Agent to use it as ammunition in the game of hardball.

Many Agent contracts forbid the player from taking part in contract negotiations WITHOUT the Agent being present.  Others specify that no contract can be signed without the Agent''s approval.  Which is fair enough because otherwise there is no point in paying one of them.  Please also remember that as well as taking a percentage of the deal, most Agent contracts also charge substantially for the negotiating and so the more negotiating they do.........I''m sure you can all work it out.

Docherty''s background and Fotheringham''s background doesn''t really matter at the moment.  They are contracted to Norwich and if Norwich want to do a deal they will have to do one which is approved by the Player/Agent or, as I prefer to say, Agent/Player.  It makes sense in a way because Agent''s tend to be better (my opinion) at Hardball than Players, some of whom (present company excluded) can hardly string a phrase together.  It''s the Agent who dot''s the "I''s" and crosses the "T''s" before his Superstar mumbles: "Right o, Boss."   It is also the Agent who puts the release clauses in, if he can, and who then telephones other clubs (if necessary) to let them know exactly what the amount is at an appropriate moment.

Sample conversation, only slightly exaggerated.

Agent: "It''s not a bad deal, son, but I think I can get you a better deal from X club."

Player: "Okay, then."

Agent: "Shall I talk to them?"

Player: "Yeah".

This conversation is roughly repeated with every club that comes in for a particular player (Hoolihan''s Agent is a happy man, I would think).  Mr H''s agent is of Irish origin (as am I) and by repute he has kissed the Blarney Stone on numerous occasions

What I''m trying to say, I think, is that it is not simply a question of a friendly chat between the Manager and the Player in this day and age.

I don''t think the scenario necessarily on it''s own suggests a club in a shambolic state or no more shambolic than any other club involved in contract discussions.

 

[nutty nigel 7,535]

It''s interesting to read your post and look back at the team that played in that Chelsea game. For me it shows that even though that victory put us up to 9th in the Premiership the writing was on the wall that we couldn''t stay there.

Gunn

Bradshaw Newsome Polston Ullathorne

Sutch Crook(Newman) Milligan Eadie

Ward Robins(Cureton)

To be honest I think 5 or 6 of them would struggle to get into our team now. A couple of weeks after that game we lost Gunn for the rest of the season and didn''t replace him and made do with a young and inexperienced Marshall and I believe that was the straw that broke the camels back.

So we got relegated from a Premiership that included Nottm. Forest (3rd), Leeds (5th) QPR (8th) Wimbledon (9th) Southampton (10th) Sheff Wed (13th) Coventry (16th) Palace (19th) Leicester (21st) and Ipswich (22nd).

How low can we go? Well, 6 of those 10 clubs were subsequently relegated to the third tier indeed we finished above 6 of them in our shambolic state this season.

I am not trying to make light of our position or meekly accepting it, but I do feel the game has moved on and the bar has been raised. That side that played Chelsea would stuggle to win games in this league and certainly wouldn''t be good enough for the premiership. While the subsequent fates of the other sides who have left the Premiership since that season show how difficult it has become to keep a place at the top table.

 

 

[Yellow Rages 0]

Are they holding us to ransom over contracts? You don''t know that.

Is Fozzy such a bad signing? Well it is possible to find players who haven''t clicked in other teams and then go on to do better. From what I have seen he has done well this season. You can''t argue with that. The facts are there to see. If you go to games that is. Eric Cantona had a torrid time on his travels until he found Leeds and more so Man Utd. Certain players suit certain teams and thats evident through history. What Fozzy has acomplished this season is good enough for him to be part of our progression. He has been part of a side since Roeders arrival that would have finished seventh. Imagine what he and the rest of the side could have accomplished if we had had Roeder from the start of the season

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

It''s interesting to read your post and look back at the team that played in that Chelsea game. For me it shows that even though that victory put us up to 9th in the Premiership the writing was on the wall that we couldn''t stay there.

Gunn

Bradshaw Newsome Polston Ullathorne

Sutch Crook(Newman) Milligan Eadie

Ward Robins(Cureton)

To be honest I think 5 or 6 of them would struggle to get into our team now. A couple of weeks after that game we lost Gunn for the rest of the season and didn''t replace him and made do with a young and inexperienced Marshall and I believe that was the straw that broke the camels back.

So we got relegated from a Premiership that included Nottm. Forest (3rd), Leeds (5th) QPR (8th) Wimbledon (9th) Southampton (10th) Sheff Wed (13th) Coventry (16th) Palace (19th) Leicester (21st) and Ipswich (22nd).

How low can we go? Well, 6 of those 10 clubs were subsequently relegated to the third tier indeed we finished above 6 of them in our shambolic state this season.

I am not trying to make light of our position or meekly accepting it, but I do feel the game has moved on and the bar has been raised. That side that played Chelsea would stuggle to win games in this league and certainly wouldn''t be good enough for the premiership. While the subsequent fates of the other sides who have left the Premiership since that season show how difficult it has become to keep a place at the top table.

[/quote]

And just which team would that be, nutty?

It would be rather hard to find a 16 wouldn''t you say?

OTBC

 

[BBFF 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

It''s interesting to read your post and look back at the team that played in that Chelsea game. For me it shows that even though that victory put us up to 9th in the Premiership the writing was on the wall that we couldn''t stay there.

Gunn

Bradshaw Newsome Polston Ullathorne

Sutch Crook(Newman) Milligan Eadie

Ward Robins(Cureton)

To be honest I think 5 or 6 of them would struggle to get into our team now. A couple of weeks after that game we lost Gunn for the rest of the season and didn''t replace him and made do with a young and inexperienced Marshall and I believe that was the straw that broke the camels back.

So we got relegated from a Premiership that included Nottm. Forest (3rd), Leeds (5th) QPR (8th) Wimbledon (9th) Southampton (10th) Sheff Wed (13th) Coventry (16th) Palace (19th) Leicester (21st) and Ipswich (22nd).

How low can we go? Well, 6 of those 10 clubs were subsequently relegated to the third tier indeed we finished above 6 of them in our shambolic state this season.

I am not trying to make light of our position or meekly accepting it, but I do feel the game has moved on and the bar has been raised. That side that played Chelsea would stuggle to win games in this league and certainly wouldn''t be good enough for the premiership. While the subsequent fates of the other sides who have left the Premiership since that season show how difficult it has become to keep a place at the top table.

 

 

[/quote]

Give me that 11 any day Nutty over what we have now and the only one who would and does struggle for a place is in today''s team is barn door Jamie.

 

FOOTBALL MUST COME FIRST  

[Desi Rascall 0]

Cam, its not a matter of putting Fozz and Doc up for sale or making them sweat in the reserves, if contract negotiations break down they can walk away, the worst case scenario is that they could hedge their bets, procrastinate throughout the summer and then leave us high and dry on the eve of next season,REGARDLESS of whatever deal is put before them. Its their right as players in the post Bosman era, but that won''t make the pill any sweeter if we suddenly find ourselves casting around looking for last minute replacements as the transfer window closes.

It''s Grants fault that so many (4+9) of our player''s were out of contract at the end of the season,just as it was Hamiltons when Worthington inhereted the squad and vowed that we would never allow such a situation to occur again, but here we are. I think shambles is a fair assessment of our current situation, is Roeder the Man to get us out of it? Well i for one sincerely hope so.

 

[Buncey 1]

To be honest I wouldn''t be upset if both of them went. Doc is one of the highest paid players at the club (if not the actual highest!) and I don''t think fozzy would be a huge loss. I think we need to just completely re-build and if that means losing both of them then so be it. I find it strange that people were happy that hux was shipped out despite him probably being our best player and also they cite money as a good reason. Well doc is on high wages currently (and was on prem wages for 2 and a half seasons) and is asking for more. We should only be re-newing if the price is right and if it isn''t then surely we can bring in new players, who will probably be better than what we have now.

[JohnoBono 0]

I like fozzy as a player, his attitude energy and desire can be top rate, and on his day he can also pass a ball which is a plus. But I think if we really want to progress we need to be bringing in players of a better quality than Fozzy and the Doc. In both these players the comodidity of consistencey is missing, and that is what good teams have, and its what turns adverage players into good players, good players into very good players. Not every one liked Gary Holt, but he was both consistant and effective at the job he did, hense he was very good for the team.

I might get shot down for this but I think players like Fozzy (and the Doc) look good/ok in our team because the team is basically so poor. How many of the present players could walk into the promotion winning side of a few years ago? That is the issue that needs to be addressed. To go up, to mount a serious challenge next season, we need that added quality and consistency that that promotion side had. Now that Hucks and Dublin have gone (plus Evans and Bertrand) I see no other players in a poor squad that really stands out. We are left with some very adverage championship players, who might run about a lot, and put in the odd good show but they will not get us up the division let alone out of it via promotion. You just have to look at goals scored from defenders & midfielders, goals from set pieces to see quality is missing, and that''s just a start, stuff we all know about. 

I would like Fozzy to stay. I think that he would make a good squad player next season, but if he does go he won''t be expensive to replace and hardly impossible. And we must be aimimg for a better quality of player. Players who will ''DO'' the job week in week out, and who ''DO'' the job effectively, and who have that touch of quality, nouse, toughness and speed of thought that can turn, change and win games.

If it is correct then that players such as Fozzy and Doc are not confident enough in Norwich City and Glenn Roeder to sign new contracts then it''s time to really start to worry -

or it might just be that they know that the quality is on the way and there assured first team places are under threat.     

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

For me it shows that even though that victory put us up to 9th in the Premiership the writing was on the wall that we couldn''t stay there.

Gunn

Bradshaw Newsome Polston Ullathorne

Sutch Crook(Newman) Milligan Eadie

Ward Robins(Cureton)

To be honest I think 5 or 6 of them would struggle to get into our team now.

[/quote]

Which Players Nigel?  Sutch, _______, ________, ________, _________

[Dr. Ink 0]

Have the Doc and Fozzy actually asked for more money?

What I personally suspect is Roeder has offered them a new contract on reduced wages compared to last season. They are probably trying to stay on the same deal, or certainly more than the Axe Man is offering. Both have publicly said they would like to stay at Carrow Rd, but can we really blame them if they are being offered more elsewhere (Fozzy). I can''t see many players actually wanting to come to Norwich with a squad in tatters and severe cost cutting in progress.

My prediction: Fozzy back to Jockland, and Doc will be hanging his arms over attackers shoulders again for us next season.

[BigFish 1,987]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

For me it shows that even though that victory put us up to 9th in the Premiership the writing was on the wall that we couldn''t stay there.

Gunn

Bradshaw Newsome Polston Ullathorne

Sutch Crook(Newman) Milligan Eadie

Ward Robins(Cureton)

To be honest I think 5 or 6 of them would struggle to get into our team now.

[/quote]

Which Players Nigel?  Sutch, _______, ________, ________, _________

[/quote]

Cureton

[nutty nigel 7,535]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

For me it shows that even though that victory put us up to 9th in the Premiership the writing was on the wall that we couldn''t stay there.

Gunn

Bradshaw Newsome Polston Ullathorne

Sutch Crook(Newman) Milligan Eadie

Ward Robins(Cureton)

To be honest I think 5 or 6 of them would struggle to get into our team now.

[/quote]

Which Players Nigel?  Sutch, _______, ________, ________, _________

[/quote]

Gunn, Newsome, Polston, Crook, Eadie, Ward and Robins would walk into any side since. The rest wouldn''t. That side wouldn''t beat Blackpool 3-0 today let alone Chelsea.

 

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="BigFish"]

Cureton

[/quote]

But his a regular in this season''s team with 33 starts and 12 sub appearances.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

For me it shows that even though that victory put us up to 9th in the Premiership the writing was on the wall that we couldn''t stay there.

Gunn

Bradshaw Newsome Polston Ullathorne

Sutch Crook(Newman) Milligan Eadie

Ward Robins(Cureton)

To be honest I think 5 or 6 of them would struggle to get into our team now.

[/quote]

Which Players Nigel?  Sutch, _______, ________, ________, _________

[/quote]

Gunn, Newsome, Polston, Crook, Eadie, Ward and Robins would walk into any side since. The rest wouldn''t. That side wouldn''t beat Blackpool 3-0 today let alone Chelsea.

[/quote]

True but are Milligan, Bradshaw and Ullathorne any worse than Pattison, Drury or Semi?   Semi is quick, but Bradshaw could actually defend.  Drury used to be able to defend, but Ullathorne was pretty good coming forward.  Pattison can tackle and drink but not Pass, Milligan - same.

[nutty nigel 7,535]

CJF - I believe that the team that beat Chelsea 3-0, and I remember the game, was not very good. The reason I posted it and the rest of my post was a reality check to the standards from that season to now. Why don''t you comment on that? As in the greatest ever or worstest ever threads comparing individual players is a subjective thing. If you put that team against Chelsea beside the team that lost at Hillsborough this month is it really a top ten premiership against a bottom 10 championship?

 

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="BigFish"][quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

For me it shows that even though that victory put us up to 9th in the Premiership the writing was on the wall that we couldn''t stay there.

Gunn

Bradshaw Newsome Polston Ullathorne

Sutch Crook(Newman) Milligan Eadie

Ward Robins(Cureton)

To be honest I think 5 or 6 of them would struggle to get into our team now.

[/quote]

Which Players Nigel?  Sutch, _______, ________, ________, _________

[/quote]

Cureton

[/quote]

Gunn, Newsome, Polly, Eadie, Chippy, Newman and Robins were all good players for us at their best.... even Bob Ullathorne put in a shift for us when he got the chance.... thats 8 players... the other 3 were crap!

jas :)

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="jas the barclay king"][quote user="BigFish"][quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

For me it shows that even though that victory put us up to 9th in the Premiership the writing was on the wall that we couldn''t stay there.

Gunn

Bradshaw Newsome Polston Ullathorne

Sutch Crook(Newman) Milligan Eadie

Ward Robins(Cureton)

To be honest I think 5 or 6 of them would struggle to get into our team now.

[/quote]

Which Players Nigel?  Sutch, _______, ________, ________, _________

[/quote]

Cureton

[/quote]

Gunn, Newsome, Polly, Eadie, Chippy, Newman and Robins were all good players for us at their best.... even Bob Ullathorne put in a shift for us when he got the chance.... thats 8 players... the other 3 were crap!

jas :)

[/quote]

If Fozzy goes then Bradshaw and Milligan were better than any player we have left IMO. 

[nutty nigel 7,535]

Mr Carrow - Like I said before, the merits of individual players is subjective but if you seriously believe that Bradshaw and Milligan are better than Chadwick then you should maybe stick to the accounts [8-|][*] and leave the football conversations to others [:#][;)]

 

[macdougalls perm 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Mr Carrow - Like I said before, the merits of individual players is subjective but if you seriously believe that Bradshaw and Milligan are better than Chadwick then you should maybe stick to the accounts [8-|][*] and leave the football conversations to others [:#][;)]

 

[/quote]

Very well said, NN!

[Thecanaryfan 0]

[quote user="Big Dave"]

Have the Doc and Fozzy actually asked for more money?

What I personally suspect is Roeder has offered them a new contract on reduced wages compared to last season. They are probably trying to stay on the same deal, or certainly more than the Axe Man is offering. Both have publicly said they would like to stay at Carrow Rd, but can we really blame them if they are being offered more elsewhere (Fozzy). I can''t see many players actually wanting to come to Norwich with a squad in tatters and severe cost cutting in progress.

My prediction: Fozzy back to Jockland, and Doc will be hanging his arms over attackers shoulders again for us next season.

[/quote]

 

I dont even think the Doc is that stupid to expect more money after such a shambolic season. Roeder is clearly reducing the wage budget to release extra cash for transfers. Too right too, you should have to earn your wages at NCFC or at any other club for that matter. I hope Roeder has offered him a greatly reduced wage to match his greatly reduced performances. If he doesnt like the fact he''s fanally been found out he can go and underperform at another club. Good ridance, he''s nothing but a clumsy oath.

[nutty nigel 7,535]

As God is my witness I swear he''s not that clumsy [;)]