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Am I the only one here who thinks we can turn this around ?

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A quick look at the league table - apologies for the formatting and for making you look at this in general...Top 6 - third column from the end is goals conceded.1     Watford                     9      6      2      1   15   11      20      42     Charlton                      9     5     3     1     15     9     18     63     West Brom                 9     5     2     2     19     8     17     114     Barnsley                     9     4     3     2     15     13     15     25     Coventry City             9     4     3     2     14     13     15     16     Bristol City                 9     3     5     1     12     10     14     2

17     Southampton            9     3     1     5     16     21     10     -518     Crystal Palace          9     2     3     4     11     11     9     019     Sheffield Utd           9     2     3     4     16     17     9     -120     Preston NE             9     2     3     4     10     12     9     -221     Leicester City          8     1     5     2     8     8       8     022     NORWICH CITY  9     2     2     5     5     10       8     -523     Sheffield Wed         9     2     0     7     7     16       6     -924     QPR                       8     0     3     5     7     20       3     -13We''ve let in fewer goals than Watford so far this season.  In football stability and consistency starts at the back, you get the keeper right, then the defence gains confidence in the man behind, so you become difficult to beat.  Once you become difficult to beat, you start to score goals, at least you do if you have someone who can link play to the forwards.I''d be more worried if I was a Southampton fan at the moment, they''ve leaked more goals than QPR, more than 2 a game.  At least we know that if we score 2 in a game, we''ve got a good chance of a win.Last seasons'' final places for this league.

C1Sunderland46277127647+2988
P2Birmingham City46268126742+2586
P3Derby County46259126246+1684
 4West Bromwich Albion462210148155+2676
 5Wolverhampton Wanderers462210145956+376
 6Southampton462112137753+2475
...

15Burnley461512195249+357
 16Norwich City46169215671-1557
 17Coventry City46168224762-1556
 18Queens Park Rangers461411215468-1453
 19Leicester City461314194964-1553
 20Barnsley46155265385-3250
 21Hull City461310235167-1649
R22Southend United461012244780-3342
R23Luton Town461010265381-2840
R24Leeds United46137264672-2636*
Only three teams conceded less than 50 goals, the top 3, and Burnley in 15th  If we can maintain a low goals conceded total, and this drought ends, and it must do soon on the law of averages alone, we will start to pick up points.  If the worst comes to the worst, we end up mid-table like Burnley did.  It''s also possible that we might go on a run of wins.Cue abuse.

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Looks like you may be the only one who thinks we can turn it around mate!

No seriously I am sure we can, but possibly not with our present manager who in my opinion approaches the games far too negatively. yes on paper we look to have a good defence but it could be due more to numbers behind the ball than good defending. One hates to label any players but most Champoinship sides know that Doc will always make one blunder in a match and this is often costly.

The one absolute truth is when Dion plays we are a different side and the reason is he oozes confidence and style. I he stays fit we may well start climbing he league, but we need another class player to really get going and unfortunately hucks isnt doing it this season

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Maybe the key figure here is actually is the ratio of goals scored to goals conceeded. Or more importantly the number of points....but fair enough we can turn it around, just not with grant.

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]A quick look at the league table - apologies for the formatting and for making you look at this in general...

Top 6 - third column from the end is goals conceded.

1     Watford                     9      6      2      1   15   11      20      4
2     Charlton                      9     5     3     1     15     9     18     6
3     West Brom                 9     5     2     2     19     8     17     11
4     Barnsley                     9     4     3     2     15     13     15     2
5     Coventry City             9     4     3     2     14     13     15     1
6     Bristol City                 9     3     5     1     12     10     14     2


17     Southampton            9     3     1     5     16     21     10     -5
18     Crystal Palace          9     2     3     4     11     11     9     0
19     Sheffield Utd           9     2     3     4     16     17     9     -1
20     Preston NE             9     2     3     4     10     12     9     -2
21     Leicester City          8     1     5     2     8     8       8     0
22     NORWICH CITY  9     2     2     5     5     10       8     -5
23     Sheffield Wed         9     2     0     7     7     16       6     -9
24     QPR                       8     0     3     5     7     20       3     -13

We''ve let in fewer goals than Watford so far this season.  In football stability and consistency starts at the back, you get the keeper right, then the defence gains confidence in the man behind, so you become difficult to beat.  Once you become difficult to beat, you start to score goals, at least you do if you have someone who can link play to the forwards.

I''d be more worried if I was a Southampton fan at the moment, they''ve leaked more goals than QPR, more than 2 a game.  At least we know that if we score 2 in a game, we''ve got a good chance of a win.

Last seasons'' final places for this league.

C1Sunderland46277127647+2988
P2Birmingham City46268126742+2586
P3Derby County46259126246+1684
 4West Bromwich Albion462210148155+2676
 5Wolverhampton Wanderers462210145956+376
 6Southampton462112137753+2475
...












15Burnley461512195249+357
 16Norwich City46169215671-1557
 17Coventry City46168224762-1556
 18Queens Park Rangers461411215468-1453
 19Leicester City461314194964-1553
 20Barnsley46155265385-3250
 21Hull City461310235167-1649
R22Southend United461012244780-3342
R23Luton Town461010265381-2840
R24Leeds United46137264672-2636*



Only three teams conceded less than 50 goals, the top 3, and Burnley in 15th  If we can maintain a low goals conceded total, and this drought ends, and it must do soon on the law of averages alone, we will start to pick up points.  If the worst comes to the worst, we end up mid-table like Burnley did.  It''s also possible that we might go on a run of wins.

Cue abuse.
[/quote]

I really hope so but my head says PG has lost the dressing room and his signings are just not up to it apart from one or two. All the teams that you would say are weaker on paper seem to be playing as a unit where as we dont really know from one week to the next what is expected.

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[quote user="UEA Graduate Canary"]Maybe the key figure here is actually is the ratio of goals scored to goals conceeded. Or more importantly the number of points....


[/quote]

I think it''s almost certainly the number of points that is the key figure. Nothing gets past you students does it!

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Its all well and good saying our defence is good, but we have scored only 5 goals, only a tally a worsened by qpr. And if we did start scoring goals, its likely we may start conceding more thorugh perhaps more attacking football.

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Of course we can still turn this around, the league table after 9 games is always very different to the table you will see after 46 games, don''t listen to the nonsense that some of the people on here come out with, I beleive these people call themself the "realists" which I would agree with IF realist was another word for navie, blind, whingeing farts!

 

Some people just fail to see any positives because their wrapped up in the idea that the clubs needs to be completely changed from top to bottom, although they have no relaistic or better solutions, so they just complain and moan about about everything instead. Were only 9 games in and Grant is still working out our best 11 and how to use his tactics to best suit the whole team, I thought he got his tactics just about right in the Scunthorpe game, which is very encouraging and hopefully a sign of more things to come.  The back four in recent games look as if they have improved and the teams build up play is alot better than what is was a couple of weeks back, the biggest problem we still have is the lack of chances were createing, there hasn''t been enough creativity in the team but hopefully we can improve on that within the next few weeks and start picking up more points. Players like Fozzy and Smith have been out all season and when they come back they will offer PG another option, so that''s a positive in itself.

 

TOO MANY PEOPLE SEEM TO FORGET THAT THE SEASON IS A MARATHON NOT A SPRINT

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Interesting point, certainly makes some sense.

I think that if we can start scoring some goals then we will become a totally different proposition.  When we won promotion we looked like we would score almost every time we went forward, teams were certanly afraid of us from an attacking perspective.  I also remember a few teams coming down here with a defensive set up to try and accomodate us.  If you can force teams to do that then you give yourself a chance.

Dont agree though that the defense looks strong.  Im sorry but I always feel nervous when our defense have to play the ball.  Midfield is all wrong, Brellier and Russell are too similar.  Maybe Jimmy Smith will mix things up a bit.

I think the makings of a decent championship side are there.  With just a couple of quality performers, a good striker with skill and a defender who can play the ball we could become quite a formidable opponent for almost any team in the division.  I am just not sure that Grant has got the ability to take us to that level.  And I am not convinced that the board have got the balls to back him to try.

I am finding it really hard to be positive at the moment.

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You appear not to be on your own then blubblub (surprise surprise).......but you are sadly deluded.

The only way this season can be revived now is to have Smith and Co. evicted sooner rather than later....Spincaster booted out immediately....Grant given his cards.....the bulk of the squad loaned out to East Stirling....and a new investor brought in to choose his own staff and quality of player.

So yes...it can still be turned around......but not in the way you suggest......

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It depends what you mean by "turning it round".  If you mean "will we ever win another game?" yes of course we will even if it doesn''t feel like it at the moment.  If you mean "can we avoid relegation?" yes we probably can, provided the apparent stalemate in the boardroom doesn''t drag on indefinitely.  Beyond that I wouldn''t hold your breath . . .

 

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I think we can turn it round too Blah, in as much as we could get ourselves out of the relegation zone. I''m afraid however than anything more than that is likely to be beyond this squad imo. I think you brush the goalscoring problems away to easily in your piece - 5 goals in 9 games is staggeringly bad, the worst in the division - which highlights more than just problems with the strikers. In the last two home games we hardly even managed a shot on target or created a chance, let alone scored a goal.

Just as likely as your senario of us starting to score a few and picking up some confidence is the possibility that we might start leaking some and go the other way. I can''t see us going down but I think only an unswaverable optimist (like you to your eternal credit) can see much more than a long struggle this season. 

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To be honest Blah x3 I have been thinking along similar lines - from what I saw on Tuesday night I think that the major hurdle at the moment seems to be shattered confidence. In the second half when we actually had some success going forwards and some of the self doubt seemed to lift a little we were playing some pretty decent football. If Martin''s shot had been an inch to the right we would probably have three more points. I think the confidence thing made itself obvious with the Man City cup game - pressure off, expected to lose anyway and, hey presto, the best performance of the season so far. Back to the bread and butter of the league and must win games and we are back to the usual hesitant, uncertain rubbish.  

The main thing that has concerned me over the last couple of weeks has been some of the strange selections and formational decisions made by Grant and, no matter what has been said in defence of Brown, I think we undoubtedly look better without him and with Croft and Hucks on either wing.

In a nutshell, I agree with you - the defence has been surprisingly competent and I think that we do have enough in this squad to turn it around but whether we will or not is another matter. Whatever, I intend to stick to my pre season view of waiting for at least 10 league games of this season before I start to despair completely.      

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You are right that defensively we sseem solid enough this year (especially considering the number of changes the centre backs have already had).  

What I am not sure is how much of that improved defenisive security has come from the negative midfield that sits in front of them. 

The only way we can turn it around is be creating some chances whiel remaining solid at the back,  and that means the manager solving that particualr conundrum and the ''hux'' paradox.   Until we have a manager who can provide those solutions then things will remain as bleak as they are at the moment.

Smith may help,  ditto Fozzy,  as would playing Hux up front.  But will our manager do that?   If he doesnt change nor will we.  Personally I dont think he has it in him to turn this around.

But the sityouashun is retrievable   

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[quote]Smith may help,  ditto Fozzy,  as would playing Hux up front.  But will

our manager do that?   If he doesnt change nor will we.  Personally

I dont think he has it in him to turn this around.[/quote]I don''t think anyone can predict what Grant will do next, and that''s part of the problem.  We need to be playing our best available players in their best positions, and letting the opposition worry about what we will do to them, rather than trying to work out ways to unlock them, and confusing outselves in doing so.For example, I did have big hopes for a Brellier - Smith partnership at the start of the season, but I''m more likely to favour Russell - Smith in central midfield now.  That said, Spillane could just as easily do Russells'' role, couldn''t he ?  A settled team gives consistency, and we just aren''t settled.That said, we might squeak a win at QPR, and start to haul ourselves up the league.  If you haven''t got hope, what have you got ?Cluck, Smudger, what have you got ?

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[quote user="Cluck "]

You appear not to be on your own then blubblub (surprise surprise).......but you are sadly deluded.

The only way this season can be revived now is to have Smith and Co. evicted sooner rather than later....Spincaster booted out immediately....Grant given his cards.....the bulk of the squad loaned out to East Stirling....and a new investor brought in to choose his own staff and quality of player.

So yes...it can still be turned around......but not in the way you suggest......

[/quote]Parody on the name - CheckSack the manager - CheckReplace the board - CheckRelevance to actual football played - 0%.When did the bloke who wrote that beautiful post about the history of this fine club become such a broken record ?And can he turn it around ?

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[quote user="Cluck "]

You appear not to be on your own then blubblub (surprise surprise).......but you are sadly deluded.

The only way this season can be revived now is to have Smith and Co. evicted sooner rather than later....Spincaster booted out immediately....Grant given his cards.....the bulk of the squad loaned out to East Stirling....and a new investor brought in to choose his own staff and quality of player.

So yes...it can still be turned around......but not in the way you suggest......

[/quote]

 

See this is what I just don''t get about you and your chums, you demand change and constantly moan about everything in the most negative way possible and then when it comes to your own solutions on what would make the club change for the better they are neither realistic or better solutions. Who will replace Grant and the Bored? Someone better hopefully... I guess so... but who''s that going to be then because there isn''t any guarantee it will be a better replacement considering the way things have been going recently at the club, which will only unsettle the players on the pitch far more than they are now, your like a bunch of old women really, just get over yorself and face the facts that were not a huge club and Peter Grant and his team are what we have got right now so just support the club untill any change does happen, which I hope will be for the better, but ultimately it''s still very early days and I refuse to accept that PG can''t push Norwich in the right direction after a mere 9 games into the season.

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I''ll support the team to turn us around by all means. They''re the ones on the field afterall.

Grant and Delia have lost alot of my confidence in them and I find myself hopeful of a successful takeover atm. If they can turn it around then great but the current run of form and situation at the club doesn''t suggest a surge of wins are on their way.

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[quote user="Cluck "]

You appear not to be on your own then blubblub (surprise surprise).......but you are sadly deluded.

The only way this season can be revived now is to have Smith and Co. evicted sooner rather than later....Spincaster booted out immediately....Grant given his cards.....the bulk of the squad loaned out to East Stirling....and a new investor brought in to choose his own staff and quality of player.

So yes...it can still be turned around......but not in the way you suggest......

[/quote]I must admit that in recent weeks, i''ve had to face up to the upsetting prospect of agreeing with Cluck. But thankfully, i don''t need to worry about agreeing with him any time soon.This is your opporunity to press your case Cluck, yet all you''ve done is prove that you''re just another mouthy foot soldier in the company of malcontents, with nothing contructive to say. Your ingenious solution is to bring in this phantom investor, who should throw everyone out, choose his own staff and his own "quality of player." Genius! A single person, with absolute control. Like Chase then. You''re prepared to let one investor, who probably won''t have football management experience, choose all the staff and decide what ''quality'' of players we should sign?  What will he/she know about quality any more than you, me, Grant, Smith or Doncaster? What happens when this person chooses a manager you don''t approve of? What happens when he insists on a certain player the manager doesn''t want? You''re basically prepared to put all your faith in one person to run the club, who you know absolutely nothing about, other than he or she has lots of money and may or may not have a love of NCFC.  Unbelieveable! 

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]1     Watford                     9      6      2      1   15   11      20      42     Charlton                      9     5     3     1     15     9     18     63     West Brom                 9     5     2     2     19     8     17     114     Barnsley                     9     4     3     2     15     13     15     25     Coventry City             9     4     3     2     14     13     15     16     Bristol City                 9     3     5     1     12     10     14     2

17     Southampton            9     3     1     5     16     21     10     -518     Crystal Palace          9     2     3     4     11     11     9     019     Sheffield Utd           9     2     3     4     16     17     9     -120     Preston NE             9     2     3     4     10     12     9     -221     Leicester City          8     1     5     2     8     8       8     022     NORWICH CITY  9     2     2     5     5     10       8     -523     Sheffield Wed         9     2     0     7     7     16       6     -924     QPR                       8     0     3     5     7     20       3     -13[/quote]We definitely can turn it round, but in my view we need the following: to play Martin up front, with Strihavka, Dublin or Huckerby (when he''s fit); Dublin must play - I got the impression (OK, only a gut feeling) that it was Dion who geed things up at half time on Tuesday, and though he''s at the end of his career, he''s such a shrewd footballer that we can''t not play him; play Lappin on the left wing - good on the ball, works well with Drury, and is better than anyone else we have at corners and free-kicks; and we need to keep playing Jarvis, who''s looked very composed, and bring back Spillane - I want to see the kids playing alongside Dublin, which will improve them for the future.

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[quote user="blahblahblah"] I don''t think anyone can predict what Grant will do next, and that''s part of the problem..[/quote]

Totally agree - the constant changing of formation and personnel in front of the back four is making the situation worse, not better - there is now panic accompanying the confused looks of the players.
 

 [quote]We need to be playing our best available players in their best positions, [/quote]

 

So sad that something so simple and so obvious isnt being followed blahx3.  Football is a simple game,  as long as you use your squad to its strengths - something we have not done for a couple of seasons now - does that mean my opinion is wrong because a variety of coaches and managers chose differently?

Hope springs eternal - I just hope we are near the end of the drought.  

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Our main problem is not conceeding goals (6th best defence in leagure), nor scoring them (it is not as if we see 10 shots a game), it has been creating the chances in the first place. Most Champ clubs of similar squad size will have two similar players in each positon. At the moment our two creative midfield players, Smith and Fozzy are out. This leaves us with CM comprising our two battling players, not creators. I for one believe we will see a change once either Fozzy (the new and improved edition not last seasons version) or Smith come in. They will feed better supply to both the forwards and the wingers and the chances will then start to come.

 

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Cluck "]

You appear not to be on your own then blubblub (surprise surprise).......but you are sadly deluded.

The only way this season can be revived now is to have Smith and Co. evicted sooner rather than later....Spincaster booted out immediately....Grant given his cards.....the bulk of the squad loaned out to East Stirling....and a new investor brought in to choose his own staff and quality of player.

So yes...it can still be turned around......but not in the way you suggest......

[/quote]

Parody on the name - Check
Sack the manager - Check
Replace the board - Check

Relevance to actual football played - 0%.

When did the bloke who wrote that beautiful post about the history of this fine club become such a broken record ?

And can he turn it around ?
[/quote]

Nope.....and three out of three is quite impressive in such a brief post don''t you think?

The good intentions I had when I first arrived very quickly got knocked out of me...Those thoughts remain unchanged deep down of course...but every pantomime has a villain and that''s my role the way things have turned out.

When Smith and Co. are gone however and a proper manager is put in place....Cluck will disappear to be replaced with a more genial character. I don''t like him either....but he reminds us regularly of what we have lost....and where we are now.

Without him....some might even come to believe that this current mess is what Norwich City is all about....when it clearly isn''t.  Someone has got to do the dirty work I''m afraid!..........      

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]Football is a simple game,  as long as you use your squad to its strengths[/quote]

The problem however ZLF is that no-one can actually agree on who the best players are or which position is best for them.

I know that you''re a keen advocate of Huckerby playing upfront, but there are also a large amount of fans who feel that he''s best played out on the wing. So already just in the fan support we have no uniformity on who we want to play, so it can''t be any easier for the manager.

It also depends very much on the style of play we go for, clearly picking Curo and Hucks as a front pairing wouldn''t be ideal if we were looking to play a direct game with a lot of balls in the air, as they are both far more effective with balls in to feet.

If we do however look to go for the short passing game we were once known for, then does this not reduce the effectivity of someone like Lappin, who as one of his key strengths has his crossing ability?

The defence has constantly changed this season, but this clearly has to be blamed on a combination of injuries which any team can suffer, and stupidity based on the tackles and reactions of Dublin and Shackell. No-one seems to know where Murray''s best position is, as Grant his picked out his midfield ability based on his time at Hibs, but also his defensive talent from his Rangers days...

The key factor in whether or not we can turn things around is clearly down to whether or not Grant has the ability to change the style of play to suit our current squad. He''s been strongly focused on ensuring that the fitness of the players is up to scratch, which seems to have reaped benefits based on Croft and Fozzy, but also seems to be costing us more in injuries. For me, the only way to go, is to go back to the short passing game, encourage players like Hucks to have a run at the defence, encourage Drury and Semmy to support the wingers in attack more, and for god''s sake stop defence in general from aimlessly lumping balls forward in the hope that someone can do something with an errant 40yd ball.

This is what I''d go with to make the best use of what we have (In my opinion obviously)

                                             Marshall

Otsembor               Dublin                  Shackell               Drury

                                    Brellier/Spillane

Croft                                                                            Huckerby

                                      Smith/Martin

                             Strihavka               Cureton

Play a very attacking fast paced game, based on good passing, ball control and skill, with Hucks and Croft cutting in from the wings to support the front line, Smith or Martin to provide the attacking link from the centre of midfield whilst Brellier or Spillane provide the defensive cover from midfield. On the bench we''d have:

Gilks, Lappin, Rossi, Russell & Fozzy.

Note the lack of a striker on the bench, this is because dependent on the team selection, Martin may drop to the bench if Smith is playing, we can always bring Lappin on to play on the left and move Hucks upfront, similarly we could move Dublin forward and drop Spillane back into defence and bring Russell or Rossi on to play the holding role.

It''s a flexible side based upon our best XI starting, but with the opportunity to move players around as needed. On current form I just can''t include either Doherty or Brown as I simply don''t have the confidence in the Doc at the back, and despite Brown''s team play, he''s offered no goal threat so far, nor has this looked like changing anytime soon, and I also don''t think that either are ideally suited to the style of play I think we need to be going for.

Thoughts?

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