Injury news; Gunn, Idah, Fassnacht and Sargent are back

[cambridgeshire canary 7,799]

But Barnes out of action for a while.

 

Edited July 27 by cambridgeshire canary

[Capt. Pants 5,013]

I'd forgotten Fassnacht was still here!

Good news about Sarge and Idah and crikey do we need them.

 

[Fen Canary 1,456]

9 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

But Barnes out of action for a while.

 

Shame about Barnes, I always think we look better with him in the side. He won’t score much but he’s such a nightmare for the defenders to deal with he opens up space for Sara and Sarge 

[Ernie Wise 112]

12 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Shame about Barnes, I always think we look better with him in the side. He won’t score much but he’s such a nightmare for the defenders to deal with he opens up space for Sara and Sarge 

But where will he fit in a team that will press and hound teams into giving up possession? His legs have gone…..

[cambridgeshire canary 7,799]

14 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Shame about Barnes, I always think we look better with him in the side. He won’t score much but he’s such a nightmare for the defenders to deal with he opens up space for Sara and Sarge 

He's very much one of those players every team hates playing against. He's there to rattle the foe, he's always in their faces every free kick, every kickoff, every time anything happens.

But sadly beacause he does not score a hatrick every match and hes old sadly many don't seem to appriciate what he brings to the team

[Fen Canary 1,456]

15 minutes ago, Ernie Wise said:

But where will he fit in a team that will press and hound teams into giving up possession? His legs have gone…..

Do you not think there’s some merit in having an array of attributes on the pitch, rather than 10 players all doing the exact same thing?

Barnes will have 5 players in midfield and up front around him to close down the opposition, I’d happily sacrifice that for having him on the pitch disrupting the opposition defence 

[Ernie Wise 112]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

Do you not think there’s some merit in having an array of attributes on the pitch, rather than 10 players all doing the exact same thing?

Barnes will have 5 players in midfield and up front around him to close down the opposition, I’d happily sacrifice that for having him on the pitch disrupting the opposition defence 

Just don’t think he is involved in games enough. The game frequently is too quick for him and it just passes him by. One or two nice touches and a very occasional good pass isn’t enough for me.

The new style of pressing in the opposition half needs to be a team thing, with everyone doing their share otherwise it is not going to be as effective if we start making exceptions. This system requires stamina, mobility as well as the ability to use the ball-don’t see where Barnes fits the bill on any of those requirements. Wrong system for him.

[TheGoogler 604]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Do you not think there’s some merit in having an array of attributes on the pitch, rather than 10 players all doing the exact same thing?

Barnes will have 5 players in midfield and up front around him to close down the opposition, I’d happily sacrifice that for having him on the pitch disrupting the opposition defence 

I also think he's a useful option off the bench. 

[chicken 3,087]

23 hours ago, Ernie Wise said:

But where will he fit in a team that will press and hound teams into giving up possession? His legs have gone…..

Legs tends to mean pace/speed, not stamina. In fact, that's something you don't lose in your 30's, it's better if not as good.

In any case, I'd suggest you watch highlights of Burnley under Dyche. Pretty certain pressing was one of their strengths.

An aspect of pressing is psychological too. I don't think Barnes lets up at all over 90mins. You can see he is constantly talking to our players and the oppos and is physical. He's a handful.

[Ernie Wise 112]

59 minutes ago, chicken said:

Legs tends to mean pace/speed, not stamina. In fact, that's something you don't lose in your 30's, it's better if not as good.

In any case, I'd suggest you watch highlights of Burnley under Dyche. Pretty certain pressing was one of their strengths.

An aspect of pressing is psychological too. I don't think Barnes lets up at all over 90mins. You can see he is constantly talking to our players and the oppos and is physical. He's a handful.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this. I just can’t see how he fits into this way of playing. 
Burnley is now more than a season ago and then was he a regular or a bit part player?

At a stretch, I could only see him being a late substitute who comes on to waste time, be a nuisance, break up play to see a game out. A bit of an expensive option to have.

[lake district canary 4,831]

Is Sarge going to be fully fit, or still nursing an injury, I wonder?

[Ken Hairy 4,272]

It's coming out that Celtic had 'Idah' shirts on show in their clubshop at the weekend before quickly removing them.

[king canary 8,758]

On 28/07/2024 at 08:42, chicken said:

Legs tends to mean pace/speed, not stamina. In fact, that's something you don't lose in your 30's, it's better if not as good.

In any case, I'd suggest you watch highlights of Burnley under Dyche. Pretty certain pressing was one of their strengths.

An aspect of pressing is psychological too. I don't think Barnes lets up at all over 90mins. You can see he is constantly talking to our players and the oppos and is physical. He's a handful.

Not sure he's that much of a handful these days. Quite often seemed off the pace, both unable to keep up if we lost the ball and he needed to press/track back and on his heels when we turned the ball over and wanted to counter at any pace. And this was in a team that actually wasn't very focused on high pressing.

Where he was useful was that he's a good fit for the very specific role Wagner wanted him forwards playing- dropped deep to form a 'box' with the central midfielders allowing the wide players to run beyond. I don't see a great deal of call for that in this system.

[chicken 3,087]

9 minutes ago, king canary said:

Not sure he's that much of a handful these days. Quite often seemed off the pace, both unable to keep up if we lost the ball and he needed to press/track back and on his heels when we turned the ball over and wanted to counter at any pace. And this was in a team that actually wasn't very focused on high pressing.

Where he was useful was that he's a good fit for the very specific role Wagner wanted him forwards playing- dropped deep to form a 'box' with the central midfielders allowing the wide players to run beyond. I don't see a great deal of call for that in this system.

I think the difficulty is that we have three phases of Barnes this season.

The start of the season. Post his first injury and post his 2nd injury.

He'd clearly had an impact on the likes of Sargent and Idah on the pitch, linking up well with the former. I'm not sure Barnes has ever been fleet of foot so to speak. In those early games he was influential and important.

When he returned the team's fortunes changed. He fights and battles and expects that of others about him. He may not have been quite as impactful as the start but still contributed a fair bit.

Post his 2nd injury is likely to be most memorable to folks as he really did struggle coming back for the play-offs. So much so he needs an operation.

Is he a prolific goal-getter? No, but I feel he performs a smilar role to Stieperman which is to be a bit of a distaction to defences to draw attention away from the main threat.

[chicken 3,087]

On 28/07/2024 at 10:11, lake district canary said:

Is Sarge going to be fully fit, or still nursing an injury, I wonder?

More likely Barnes who needs an operation.

[king canary 8,758]

12 minutes ago, chicken said:

I think the difficulty is that we have three phases of Barnes this season.

The start of the season. Post his first injury and post his 2nd injury.

He'd clearly had an impact on the likes of Sargent and Idah on the pitch, linking up well with the former. I'm not sure Barnes has ever been fleet of foot so to speak. In those early games he was influential and important.

When he returned the team's fortunes changed. He fights and battles and expects that of others about him. He may not have been quite as impactful as the start but still contributed a fair bit.

Post his 2nd injury is likely to be most memorable to folks as he really did struggle coming back for the play-offs. So much so he needs an operation.

Is he a prolific goal-getter? No, but I feel he performs a smilar role to Stieperman which is to be a bit of a distaction to defences to draw attention away from the main threat.

Nobody has said he is a prolific goal getter though. 

Personally I don't think his all round play is very good at this point, although I'd agree it seemingly got worse as the season went on, in part due to injuries.

He can be a distraction but you don't play someone just for that- Steiperman bought more to the team than Barnes was doing by the end of it.

On the ball Barnes was pretty poor last season- often barely touching the ball (football ref says he had less touches per 90 minutes played than anyone other than Hwang) and didn't do a great deal with it when he had it. Low pass completion percentage, low number of chances created etc etc.

I accept that a lot of what Barnes can do isn't easily measured statistically but I'm not sure a Thorup team will have much room for a player who's strengths seem to entirely lie in 'puts himself about a bit.'

[hogesar 10,766]

22 minutes ago, king canary said:

Nobody has said he is a prolific goal getter though. 

Personally I don't think his all round play is very good at this point, although I'd agree it seemingly got worse as the season went on, in part due to injuries.

He can be a distraction but you don't play someone just for that- Steiperman bought more to the team than Barnes was doing by the end of it.

On the ball Barnes was pretty poor last season- often barely touching the ball (football ref says he had less touches per 90 minutes played than anyone other than Hwang) and didn't do a great deal with it when he had it. Low pass completion percentage, low number of chances created etc etc.

I accept that a lot of what Barnes can do isn't easily measured statistically but I'm not sure a Thorup team will have much room for a player who's strengths seem to entirely lie in 'puts himself about a bit.'

A bench option ala Jordan Rhodes? His 6 goals / 5 assists wasn't terrible when his minutes equated to 29 full matches. Not special, but not terrible.

I agree he doesn't have a starting place in Thorup's side. Oddly I get the feeling Fassnacht might do, though.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 2,424]

9 minutes ago, king canary said:

Nobody has said he is a prolific goal getter though. 

Personally I don't think his all round play is very good at this point, although I'd agree it seemingly got worse as the season went on, in part due to injuries.

He can be a distraction but you don't play someone just for that- Steiperman bought more to the team than Barnes was doing by the end of it.

On the ball Barnes was pretty poor last season- often barely touching the ball (football ref says he had less touches per 90 minutes played than anyone other than Hwang) and didn't do a great deal with it when he had it. Low pass completion percentage, low number of chances created etc etc.

I accept that a lot of what Barnes can do isn't easily measured statistically but I'm not sure a Thorup team will have much room for a player who's strengths seem to entirely lie in 'puts himself about a bit.'

Out of the older players, Barnes feels like he is the least suited and will offer the least (on the pitch). Given he has only recently had surgery, and recovery rates increase as players get older, I suspect he may not even be available to play for a while yet. Feel the striker area is one that looks well stocked on paper, but there are some pretty crumbly foundations. Sargent's ongoing injury concerns, Idah wants a move and is unhappy about being a bench option and Barnes with his injury and significant concerns about whether he can really contribute.

[king canary 8,758]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

A bench option ala Jordan Rhodes? His 6 goals / 5 assists wasn't terrible when his minutes equated to 29 full matches. Not special, but not terrible.

I agree he doesn't have a starting place in Thorup's side. Oddly I get the feeling Fassnacht might do, though.

So I was looking at Barnes stats earlier when I was posting on this thread and I did notice a couple of interesting things.

Yes his headline 6 goals and 5 assists looks solid, especially in only 2,500 minutes.

However....

He scored 6 goals from chances with an xG of 7.9, suggesting from a finishing perspective he actually underperformed somewhat. In contrast Sargent grabbed 16 from an xG of 12.1 and Rowe managed 12 from an xG of only 5.3! This also suggests Rowe may be in for something of a regression goals wise next season but that is another conversation.

On the assists front, he got 5 but only created chances worth 1.4 xA- suggesting he benefitted from others finishing well from low percentage chances he created. In fact his expected assist per 90 minutes is on a level with Grant Hanley. I don't have the will to go back and watch each of his assists to see if I agree mind you.

[hogesar 10,766]

8 minutes ago, king canary said:

So I was looking at Barnes stats earlier when I was posting on this thread and I did notice a couple of interesting things.

Yes his headline 6 goals and 5 assists looks solid, especially in only 2,500 minutes.

However....

He scored 6 goals from chances with an xG of 7.9, suggesting from a finishing perspective he actually underperformed somewhat. In contrast Sargent grabbed 16 from an xG of 12.1 and Rowe managed 12 from an xG of only 5.3! This also suggests Rowe may be in for something of a regression goals wise next season but that is another conversation.

On the assists front, he got 5 but only created chances worth 1.4 xA- suggesting he benefitted from others finishing well from low percentage chances he created. In fact his expected assist per 90 minutes is on a level with Grant Hanley. I don't have the will to go back and watch each of his assists to see if I agree mind you.

I don't even have the will to check if your numbers are correct but we know we outperformed xG in some key positions last season so it would make sense. I guess the point is if he gets those numbers again which are generally on par with his career per minutes played, we'd all be relatively content.

[king canary 8,758]

8 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I don't even have the will to check if your numbers are correct but we know we outperformed xG in some key positions last season so it would make sense. I guess the point is if he gets those numbers again which are generally on par with his career per minutes played, we'd all be relatively content.

Stats are all from here btw, apparently supplied by Opta

https://fbref.com/en/squads/1c781004/2023-2024/Norwich-City-Stats

 

[Ernie Wise 112]

4 hours ago, chicken said:

I think the difficulty is that we have three phases of Barnes this season.

The start of the season. Post his first injury and post his 2nd injury.

He'd clearly had an impact on the likes of Sargent and Idah on the pitch, linking up well with the former. I'm not sure Barnes has ever been fleet of foot so to speak. In those early games he was influential and important.

When he returned the team's fortunes changed. He fights and battles and expects that of others about him. He may not have been quite as impactful as the start but still contributed a fair bit.

Post his 2nd injury is likely to be most memorable to folks as he really did struggle coming back for the play-offs. So much so he needs an operation.

Is he a prolific goal-getter? No, but I feel he performs a smilar role to Stieperman which is to be a bit of a distaction to defences to draw attention away from the main threat.

I can’t see many if any similarities between Stieperman and Barnes. Stieperman dropped deep to link play was excellent at both ball carrying and spreading play and creating opportunities for Pukki and he also chipped in with his fair share of goals. He would have been a much better fit for the current style of play.

[Midlands Yellow 4,682]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

I don't even have the will to check if your numbers are correct but we know we outperformed xG in some key positions last season so it would make sense. I guess the point is if he gets those numbers again which are generally on par with his career per minutes played, we'd all be relatively content.

We wait with bated breath. 

[Mason 47 1,925]

10 minutes ago, Ernie Wise said:

I can’t see many if any similarities between Stieperman and Barnes. Stieperman dropped deep to link play was excellent at both ball carrying and spreading play and creating opportunities for Pukki and he also chipped in with his fair share of goals. He would have been a much better fit for the current style of play.

I think the difference was Stiepermann was a midfielder that went high, and Barnes is a striker that comes deep. They occupy a similar space on the pitch but produce very different things.

On Barnes, it's no secret that I'm not a huge fan. Not convinced at all by the argument that somehow Sargent is much better because he's on the pitch at the same time. However, he's our player (til the end I reckon, which might well be end of this year) and won't be a bad option to throw on to disrupt and poach. If he's starting though, there's a problem.

[king canary 8,758]

18 hours ago, hogesar said:

I don't even have the will to check if your numbers are correct but we know we outperformed xG in some key positions last season so it would make sense. I guess the point is if he gets those numbers again which are generally on par with his career per minutes played, we'd all be relatively content.

Just to add to this Sara, Rowe and Sargent out performed their xG significantly last season.

Sara I'm confident can keep that up on the basis he's done it two years in a row now. I think he's just a good finisher. Rowe is the one I'd be concerned about regressing to the mean.

For the squad as a whole though Barnes is the big outlier- he underperformed his xG by more than anyone last year but overperformed his xA more than anyone last year, which does somewhat suggest that the six goals and five assists figures were a bit of a mirage vs his actual play.

[hogesar 10,766]

26 minutes ago, king canary said:

Just to add to this Sara, Rowe and Sargent out performed their xG significantly last season.

Sara I'm confident can keep that up on the basis he's done it two years in a row now. I think he's just a good finisher. Rowe is the one I'd be concerned about regressing to the mean.

For the squad as a whole though Barnes is the big outlier- he underperformed his xG by more than anyone last year but overperformed his xA more than anyone last year, which does somewhat suggest that the six goals and five assists figures were a bit of a mirage vs his actual play.

I suppose the question is does Barnes do anything currently for us that other players can't do. I guess he's a bit more physical than most options we would have in that position but not convinced that's a necessity. 

[king canary 8,758]

Just now, hogesar said:

I suppose the question is does Barnes do anything currently for us that other players can't do. I guess he's a bit more physical than most options we would have in that position but not convinced that's a necessity. 

I think he did a very specific role in Wagner's system that rendered him much more important that you'd ideally want him to be.

In a new system, I'm not sure what role he plays. He showed last season he doesn't work as the main striker. I'm not sure a team that plays in the way Thorup seems to want them to will want Barnes playing off the striker, considering his limited ability on the ball. I don't think he has the mobility to be the wide striker he was at times for Burnley anymore.

Best I can see is a bench option if we're needing to get physical while chasing a goal. 

[Carrow89 186]

You do not need to look up anything. Just watch the game. Barnes is not up to the pace. And another year on he will not get any quicker. Quite the opposite. The telling point is would anyone on here be best pleased if he was announced as a new signing this summer.

[Robert N. LiM 6,300]

On 29/07/2024 at 14:41, hogesar said:

I don't even have the will to check if your numbers are correct

Someone check on Hoggy.