Forest have had enough

[Capt. Pants 4,270]

Never mind I'm sure if Forest are relegated they'll find another £200m to buy a promotion. 

Total lack of class from a team who have failed to push on this season. Get what they deserve.

[Monty13 2,239]

12 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

But why is it only acceptable to criticise referees for dreadful errors?

Players make awful mistakes all the time. I haven't seen Burnley put out tweets against Trafford and Muric for all the ****-ups they've made season, no pundit has called for them to be dropped to the Football League and the public at large haven't made a sweeping generalisation about awful goalkeeping standards are in this country.

It just seems that when referees make mistakes, it's totally unacceptable. But when players, who earn in a week what a referee earns in a year, make sloppy schoolboy errors like misplaced passes, missing open goals or awful defensive mishaps, their managers defend them and pundits and social media are never anywhere near as critical as they are towards referees. 

The referees get a far higher percentage of decisions right than players have competed passes, or a sporting director has successful transfers. Yet nobody ever accuses a sporting director of corruption because they spunked £10m on Christos Tzolis.

I'd love referees to have the same freedom when it comes to criticising players and managers. I'd just love to hear a referee interviewed after a game and say something like, "how has a striker at this level missed a chance like that? And as for the manager, why on earth has he made those substitutions? Such poor decisions. It's clear that he never played at this standard; he just doesn't understand the game at this level".

It just seems to be getting worse as well. Referees are being criticised more and more, and it just adds more pressure, making the job even more difficult when they know they're going to be screamed at by one of the managers, regardless of which way they give the decision. Quite often we see managers going mad on the touchline over a decision which most people think the ref actually got right. 

I genuinely think we're not too far away from a referee getting physically attacked, either outside the ground after game or even after they've gone home. It's already out of hand, it's getting worse and the Premier League and the FA really need to clamp down on it.

Would help a lot if they had mics and we heard the reasonings for their decisions like Rugby. 

They are basically untouchable gods right now, no wonder when they are continually making questionable decisions there is a lot of anger.

I think you’re right it’s getting pretty bad but there are things that could be done to improve the relationship between referees and other parties. Referees should be respected, but respect is earnt.

VAR hasn’t helped, it should only be used for clear and obvious errors but it’s become a crutch and watching off side decisions be made over a cm or two (despite the inaccuracies of the method) is a mockery of the intent IMO. Trust in officiating should be improved, but I don’t think it’s ever been lower IMO.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,831]

2 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Would help a lot if they had mics and we heard the reasonings for their decisions like Rugby. 

They are basically untouchable gods right now, no wonder when they are continually making questionable decisions there is a lot of anger.

I think you’re right it’s getting pretty bad but there are things that could be done to improve the relationship between referees and other parties. Referees should be respected, but respect is earnt.

VAR hasn’t helped, it should only be used for clear and obvious errors but it’s become a crutch and watching off side decisions be made over a cm or two (despite the inaccuracies of the method) is a mockery of the intent IMO. Trust in officiating should be improved, but I don’t think it’s ever been lower IMO.

Agreed completely, apart from the 'untouchable gods' part.

As a matter of fact, your first and last paragraphs have more-or-less rephrased another post I made on the last page!

[Monty13 2,239]

Just now, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Agreed completely, apart from the 'untouchable gods' part.

As a matter of fact, your first and last paragraphs have more-or-less rephrased another post I made on the last page!

I mean in the professional sense. There’s lots of indirect criticism thrown at referees but I don’t see them owning their mistakes or explaining their decisions enough IMO. That’s of course a recipe for discontent.

[ged in the onion bag 856]

13 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

I'm struggling to find sympathy with Forest after the money they've sprayed around.

They can't win it seems... don't spend money, they can't compete, plenty of evidence of that with us, spend money you don't deserve to do well.    Why should they not spend when the big six do?    How do you propose they compete?    Maybe build a squad, that's a good idea but people on here wouldn't be havin that.     

To be fair, they only have complaint about the third incident but I am coming around to the view that this VAR and these rules are corrupt and corruptable.     Games' lost its integrity.     Handball rule is a joke and can't see how VAR can be so accurate as to definitely get these offsides spot on when players are 40 yds apart.

[rock bus 854]

Whatever you think of Forest.

It seems ridiculous that having received a complaint hat one of the VAR officials is a Luton fan before the game that no action was taken. If it is true that he was a Luton fan then that is absolutely disgraceful. Even, if he isn't, the sensible thing to do would have been to make the change anyhow to avoid any risk of a conflict of interest.

Bizarre decisions made before the game and during the game!

[hogesar 9,711]

12 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

But why is it only acceptable to criticise referees for dreadful errors?

Players make awful mistakes all the time. I haven't seen Burnley put out tweets against Trafford and Muric for all the ****-ups they've made season, no pundit has called for them to be dropped to the Football League and the public at large haven't made a sweeping generalisation about awful goalkeeping standards are in this country.

It just seems that when referees make mistakes, it's totally unacceptable. But when players, who earn in a week what a referee earns in a year, make sloppy schoolboy errors like misplaced passes, missing open goals or awful defensive mishaps, their managers defend them and pundits and social media are never anywhere near as critical as they are towards referees. 

The referees get a far higher percentage of decisions right than players have competed passes, or a sporting director has successful transfers. Yet nobody ever accuses a sporting director of corruption because they spunked £10m on Christos Tzolis.

I'd love referees to have the same freedom when it comes to criticising players and managers. I'd just love to hear a referee interviewed after a game and say something like, "how has a striker at this level missed a chance like that? And as for the manager, why on earth has he made those substitutions? Such poor decisions. It's clear that he never played at this standard; he just doesn't understand the game at this level".

It just seems to be getting worse as well. Referees are being criticised more and more, and it just adds more pressure, making the job even more difficult when they know they're going to be screamed at by one of the managers, regardless of which way they give the decision. Quite often we see managers going mad on the touchline over a decision which most people think the ref actually got right. 

I genuinely think we're not too far away from a referee getting physically attacked, either outside the ground after game or even after they've gone home. It's already out of hand, it's getting worse and the Premier League and the FA really need to clamp down on it.

The problem is VAR. Referee's always get stick during the game, always have one always will do. And that's irrelevant if they get the decision right in the moment. That's never been a problem and it's part of the job.

But when VAR doesn't give decisions that every single man and his dog can see is blatant, there's simply no excuse. We've had Mike Dean literally come out and admit that he ignored making a VAR decision to stop his mate on the field looking stupid. That's inexcusable and these people should not be refereeing our game. 

When ref's get decisions wrong on the pitch we all have a boo and a sing but that's generally the end of it, we understand mistakes happen and have done for 100 years in real-time football. When you have 30 action replays and 5 minutes to come to the right decision and you still don't bother, then it's pretty inexcusable.

[king canary 7,651]

24 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Referees should be respected, but respect is earnt.

I struggle with this when it comes to referees for two reasons.

1. Referees are there to enforce the rules of the game that everyone has agreed to play by. Regardless of if the referee in question is a bit of ****, the rules of the game do not need to earn anybody's respect, they should be respected from the off.
2. Referees get disrespected and blamed even when they do their job well. We've seen time and time again players getting in referees faces for correct decisions and managers claiming they've been done over despite referees getting their calls right. For me the 'respect' part needs to start with the players and the managers. 

[Ulfotto 640]

Again it goes back to respect people always reference Rugby Union the difference is that the players and coaches respect the ref in that sport. Whereas in football it is a pile on led by the clubs, managers, fans and pundits. 

It is almost as if people thought VAR should solve all the issues which is ludicrous. 

[king canary 7,651]

Also to add- referees jobs would be made so much easier if players stopped trying to con them on every single decision. Players will contest throw ins they know aren't there's, will try and steal and extra two or three yards on an indirect free kick in their own half, will rage at referees for not stopping the game for a non-head injury when their team did the exact same thing 10 minutes earlier etc etc.

Football is, in my opinion, pretty unique for this sort of constant skulduggery. Is it really that surprising that refs get things wrong when there are 22 players on the pitch constantly trying to deceive them? 

[Google Bot 3,298]

Just listening to to TalkSport and they've read out a message from Michael Oliver (Newcastle fan), and he said that they have to declare who they support and any family members at clubs that could affect their bias.  This is why he wasn't allowed to officiate for Newcastle or Sunderland games, and when Newcastle where part of relegation battles he couldn't be involved in relegation matches either.

So why an earth was Atwell allowed to VAR after Forest had pointed out his allegiances pre match?  

If what Oliver has said is a known rule, then I can totally understand why Forest exposed this and made their complaint public, it's a pisstake.

Edit: Looks like it was from a 2021 interview here:

"I never referee Newcastle games, We have to declare if we have an allegiance to any club or if a family member works at a club. You can’t do any match involving that team and I can’t do Sunderland, either, for obvious reasons.

"Because Newcastle are invariably involved in a relegation battle, when you get to March or April, it means I can’t referee anyone around them towards the bottom three.

Edited April 22 by Google Bot

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,831]

28 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I mean in the professional sense. There’s lots of indirect criticism thrown at referees but I don’t see them owning their mistakes or explaining their decisions enough IMO. That’s of course a recipe for discontent.

The problem is that they're not allowed to give interviews after the game or post on social media. The most you're going to get is an occasional brief statement from PGMOL on a Monday morning.

 

8 minutes ago, hogesar said:

The problem is VAR. Referee's always get stick during the game, always have one always will do. And that's irrelevant if they get the decision right in the moment. That's never been a problem and it's part of the job.

But when VAR doesn't give decisions that every single man and his dog can see is blatant, there's simply no excuse. We've had Mike Dean literally come out and admit that he ignored making a VAR decision to stop his mate on the field looking stupid. That's inexcusable and these people should not be refereeing our game. 

When ref's get decisions wrong on the pitch we all have a boo and a sing but that's generally the end of it, we understand mistakes happen and have done for 100 years in real-time football. When you have 30 action replays and 5 minutes to come to the right decision and you still don't bother, then it's pretty inexcusable.

Agree to an extent, but the issue comes back to what has already been mentioned several times in this thread, and in the quote below by @king canary. Even when referees get decisions right, the team that it goes against starts screaming at the ref.

 

7 minutes ago, king canary said:

I struggle with this when it comes to referees for two reasons.

1. Referees are there to enforce the rules of the game that everyone has agreed to play by. Regardless of if the referee in question is a bit of ****, the rules of the game do not need to earn anybody's respect, they should be respected from the off.
2. Referees get disrespected and blamed even when they do their job well. We've seen time and time again players getting in referees faces for correct decisions and managers claiming they've been done over despite referees getting their calls right. For me the 'respect' part needs to start with the players and the managers. 

Yup, case in point was the Barcelona-PSG game last week. The referee got the two big calls (red card for Araujo in the first half and the penalty for PSG in the second) absolutely spot on, but they weren't easy to spot. Yet the way Xavi kicked off on the touchline and in the press conference after the game, anyone who didn't see the incidents would think Barca were robbed.

 

1 minute ago, Ulfotto said:

Again it goes back to respect people always reference Rugby Union the difference is that the players and coaches respect the ref in that sport. Whereas in football it is a pile on led by the clubs, managers, fans and pundits. 

It is almost as if people thought VAR should solve all the issues which is ludicrous. 

And it's gone so far now that you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

[The Real Buh 3,451]

The subsequent reporting has been illuminating.

teams outside those top teams are expected to just accept their lot but the minute you question the fairness the usual suspects will be carted out to say it’s a disgrace to say that and mock you.

By questioning the fairness of the premier league you are messing with the illusion that the premier league is this big crazy league where anything can happen and it’s all so competitive. And by extension you are messing with their money. And you’ll be hammered for that.

Pep can say what he wants though, no problemo ✅ 

[Ulfotto 640]

Let’s be clear though this is Nottingham Forest trying to change the narrative. As sacking Steve Cooper the only guy with a shred of dignity associated with the club has failed and they don’t want to be reminded of that.

[Ulfotto 640]

1 minute ago, The Real Buh said:

Pep can say what he wants though, no problemo ✅ 

I get it but actually Pep was quite reasonable over the last minute thing against Spurs about a month ago when the Referee didn’t play the advantage. A lot more classy that releasing pre written statements on twitter after the match.

[The Real Buh 3,451]

Just now, Ulfotto said:

I get it but actually Pep was quite reasonable over the last minute thing against Spurs about a month ago when the Referee didn’t play the advantage. A lot more classy that releasing pre written statements on twitter after the match.

As a fan of a club that goes up, gets screwed over in new and original ways every week, and then gets relegated forest are just trying out a new technique. You might as well give it a go, why not employ a ref as a consultant and shame them every week? It might work.

If atwell has a link to Luton and he was the VAR and forest warned them it blows it wide open. The PGMOL is shady as hell and I personally hope a referee scandal sinks the prem just like it did in Italy.

[Monty13 2,239]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

I struggle with this when it comes to referees for two reasons.

1. Referees are there to enforce the rules of the game that everyone has agreed to play by. Regardless of if the referee in question is a bit of ****, the rules of the game do not need to earn anybody's respect, they should be respected from the off.
2. Referees get disrespected and blamed even when they do their job well. We've seen time and time again players getting in referees faces for correct decisions and managers claiming they've been done over despite referees getting their calls right. For me the 'respect' part needs to start with the players and the managers. 

Sorry I wasn’t clear, the position should be respected but the individual has to earn respect.

They are two different things, football has a problem with both.

[shefcanary 2,437]

1 hour ago, The Real Buh said:

The PGMOL is shady as hell and I personally hope a referee scandal sinks the prem just like it did in Italy.

I thought the appointment of Howard Webb would mark a turning point. It hasn't happened yet, it has to happen now otherwise his role becomes untenable. Expect a statement from him midweek.

[Google Bot 3,298]

24 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

It hasn't happened yet, it has to happen now otherwise his role becomes untenable. Expect a statement from him midweek.

Don't forget that Clattenburg works at Forest as a Referee analysis or something along those lines, himself and Webb both being well respected officials.

Clattenburg had to be complicit in Forest highlighting Atwell being a Luton fan before the match, and you'd expect he knows most of the allegiances behind the scenes.  I feel that both sides have to double down or, as you say, their roles become untenable.

I think it's most likely Clattenburg steps down and this doesn't get very far.  If this did go through legal proceedings he would be key for Forest, but would he be willing to rat on his mates?

Edited April 22 by Google Bot

[Jim Smith 2,338]

I have some sympathy for Forest in the  sense that we can all recall how immensely frustrating it was being screwed over by the officiating almost every week at prem level. That said it does happen to most of the smaller sides and they would also do well to remember the playoff final they won when Hudds were not given two blatant penalties and VAR did not intervene.

[Jim Smith 2,338]

16 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

If Stuart Atwell is a Luton fan then it’s totally unacceptable that he’s involved in the game, right? That’s the flip side.

I’ve often thought the thing that real big thing that could bring the premier league down is a refereeing scandal like we had in Italy. There’s no way they aren’t on the take. It’d be weird if they weren’t to be honest.

I don’t think he’s on the take but I do think he is unquestionably a really, really bad referee. I still haven’t forgotten how he screwed us over in that game at Elland Road during our last relegation. Rarely has a team of officials had such an influence on the flow of a game. 
 

As for the other post above querying why referees get a harder time than players, I agree that the on pitch officials will make errors from time to time and they can be excused the odd one but it’s a bit different when they are watching the game via video and have the benefit of endless replays surely?

[Ulfotto 640]

Just watched all three incidents and would file them all under seen them given but in my opinion none are total howlers. Which in my opinion is what VAR. should be on the hook for the total howler not re refereeing games.

 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,831]

13 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

As for the other post above querying why referees get a harder time than players, I agree that the on pitch officials will make errors from time to time and they can be excused the odd one but it’s a bit different when they are watching the game via video and have the benefit of endless replays surely?

 

10 minutes ago, Ulfotto said:

Just watched all three incidents and would file them all under seen them given but in my opinion none are total howlers. Which in my opinion is what VAR. should be on the hook for the total howler not re refereeing games.

These two posts consecutively sum up the issue.

Like I said before, all decisions bar offsides and the ball crossing the line are subjective in football, and managers, players and pundits regularly disagree. 

Same with the 'clear and obvious' error threshold. What some deem clear and obvious isn't the same as others.

The refs and the VARs just cannot win. What some people think is a mistake, others will see as correct. 

For what it's worth, the first Young tackle and the handball weren't clear and obvious errors for me, but the third incident was, and should've been given after a VAR review.

[hogesar 9,711]

Ultimately the PGMOL haven't looked after their referees by allowing the Luton fan ref the opportunity to be involved in this game.

I have no reason to doubt the blokes integrity but the PGMOL have allowed that to be the case.

The majority of the refs are an awful standard, the PGMOL are incompetent and then you've got VAR as the cherry on top of the sh*t cake.

[king canary 7,651]

Another point to remember.

If the quality of refereeing is poor, abusing them won't improve it. Part of the reason the standard isn't higher is that so many people who start refereeing at younger levels suffer dogs abuse (in part copied from what people see on TV) and end quitting.

[Foxy2600 305]

4 minutes ago, king canary said:

Another point to remember.

If the quality of refereeing is poor, abusing them won't improve it. Part of the reason the standard isn't higher is that so many people who start refereeing at younger levels suffer dogs abuse (in part copied from what people see on TV) and end quitting.

As an ex Referee I have some sympathy with the sentiment, but we are talking about the decisions made in Shockley Park. 
In real-time football you can’t give what you can’t see and the old rule of thumb of penalising ‘hand to ball’ and not ‘ball to hand’ always worked for me. 
VAR should be abused, criticised, scrutinised, investigated incessantly until it’s squeaky clean. If that can’t be achieved then get rid of it! It’s not fit for purpose. As has been said before here, if the refs are mic’ed up then we should all here what they’ve got to say…

[cambridgeshire canary 6,766]

 

What they expecting to hear? "Haha let's screw over Forest UP THE LUTON!"

Edited April 22 by cambridgeshire canary

[littleyellowbirdie 2,566]

2 hours ago, Foxy2600 said:

As an ex Referee I have some sympathy with the sentiment, but we are talking about the decisions made in Shockley Park. 
In real-time football you can’t give what you can’t see and the old rule of thumb of penalising ‘hand to ball’ and not ‘ball to hand’ always worked for me. 
VAR should be abused, criticised, scrutinised, investigated incessantly until it’s squeaky clean. If that can’t be achieved then get rid of it! It’s not fit for purpose. As has been said before here, if the refs are mic’ed up then we should all here what they’ve got to say…

Absolutely. VAR removes all doubt as to being able to see what happens. If decisions then look like they're not right to most people then either the rules are wrong, the interpretation is wrong. If the interpretation's wrong then it's a question whether it's a good faith misunderstanding or corruption. Corruption can easily be avoided by making sure there are no conflicts of interest as there was here.

[Indy 3,309]

I think the clear instruction is that if the arm is out stretching in an unnatural position or moving to the ball then it’s a penalty, that was clear handball as clear as it gets!

Second the challenge from behind never made contact with the ball but made clear contact with the man definitely a penalty! So VAR hardly had hard choices to make both were clear and obvious mistakes and again had that been a more high profile side with out like United or Man City they’d both be awarded! Biased or not the VAR was shocking and I was pro VAR but totally against it as it now appeared to be another tool to protect the big boys, yesterday’s FA cup offside proves that!

**** poor development of something which could have been a great addition.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,566]

2 minutes ago, Indy said:

I think the clear instruction is that if the arm is out stretching in an unnatural position or moving to the ball then it’s a penalty, that was clear handball as clear as it gets!

Second the challenge from behind never made contact with the ball but made clear contact with the man definitely a penalty! So VAR hardly had hard choices to make both were clear and obvious mistakes and again had that been a more high profile side with out like United or Man City they’d both be awarded! Biased or not the VAR was shocking and I was pro VAR but totally against it as it now appeared to be another tool to protect the big boys, yesterday’s FA cup offside proves that!

**** poor development of something which could have been a great addition.

Yeah, I'm personally in favour of it, so long as we start calling out corruption in football for what it is, because you're right: This can only be corruption or staggering incompetence; in either case the referees are showing themselves to be unfit for the job.

Edited April 22 by littleyellowbirdie