The English National Anthem

[TheGunnShow 5,983]

I said Men of Harlech earlier. In fact, go full Spanish and don't have any words at all.

Just let the tune do the work (You get a verse sung at the end of this version, but the instrumental before it is what I'm driving at).
 

 

[dylanisabaddog 4,965]

1 hour ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Everyone knows it should be Rule Britannia.. If the Proms can do it 😉

It's not a British team. It's England. 

[PurpleCanary 5,578]

I don’t care much, but the current anthem is awful. ‘I vow…’ is a good tune. Simply update the lyrics, tastefully.

[Fen Canary 855]

3 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I've been quite surprised to see some of the comments here. For some strange reason, some people think that anyone who dislikes the UK anthem is anti English or is ashamed of its history. 

I can't speak for others but I think this is an extraordinary country. It's an incredibly beautiful place and we still punch well above our weight in all sorts of ways like sport, music and science. I know there are things we shouldn't be proud of but very few countries are perfect. 

I wasn't looking to start an argument about history. I would simply like an English (not British) anthem that everyone can be proud of. I'm quite happy for the British anthem to be sung at British or Royal events but not at England football matches. It's roughly the equivalent of the French playing the European anthem before their games. 

It's still a great country despite any faults. It's just that we don't have an anthem and, like it or not, the anthem we use is dire. I really shouldn't have to listen to the French anthem and feel jealous. If history tells us anything it's that we're better at music than them. 

I think that’s largely because the same people who complain about the anthem are the same ones who complain about the Monarchy, the nations history and seem to believe that half their fellow countrymen are knuckle dragging bigots.

If it was simply not liking the anthem it would be a different argument, but unfortunately you’d bet your house on knowing the entire political outlook of those that loudly complain. It’s simply one strand of the constant derision of England and the English 

[Grando 267]

12 hours ago, Ian said:

I personally think it's less down to the anthem itself, and more to do with the fact it's generally looked down upon to have a strong English national identity these days, especially following Brexit.

When some people, some of the media and/or politicians, generally consider flying the Cross of St George to be an indicator of someone being a bigot or worse it's hardly surprising some people no longer feel a particular sense of pride at being English?

 

These days, you get arrested and thrown in jail if you say you’re English, don’t you?

[Google Bot 3,298]

If we're going to start getting some tunes in, let's have some proper ones:

 

[Mengo 825]

16 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

If we're going to start getting some tunes in, let's have some proper ones:

 

Nice one , I like it. How about this one classic English anthem . Timeless. Or maybe even Parklife.  Song 2 priceless.

 

Edited March 28 by Mengo

[chicken 2,640]

28 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I think that’s largely because the same people who complain about the anthem are the same ones who complain about the Monarchy, the nations history and seem to believe that half their fellow countrymen are knuckle dragging bigots.

If it was simply not liking the anthem it would be a different argument, but unfortunately you’d bet your house on knowing the entire political outlook of those that loudly complain. It’s simply one strand of the constant derision of England and the English 

The country is currently, largely polorised. It has been made to be so by the main political parties because it suits them to entrench positions and fight over the fringes (weaker, easily turned localities).

The issue with this is that it does two things. It encourages more people to become familiar with extremes, and through lack of denouncement, legitimises them (see Ukip inviting in Tommy ten names Robinson).

The other thing it does is push this narrative that "if you don't 100% agree with me/us, you are one of them". You see it everywhere, on here, across social media... it's a manipulation.

The best example is 'make <insert country> great again'. Most people on earth would want their country to be, lets say free and prosperous for all. It's a loose defenition but you know.

When you say 'great again' you hark of a historical period.

It's impossible to have that discussion because if you do, and suggest that for the most of history until relatively recently, the view of greatness was dictated by the aristocracy and powerful elite. It wasn't one shared by the working classes.

My gran from the East End of London would often talk about living through the blitz as an aid station nurse. She'd also say that the best thing that came out of the war in London is that all of the slums, the woefully rubbish housing that was left was torn down and replaced.

What would be the problem with another cultural revolution? We're due one, last one was what? 1970's? England as it stands, lacks identity. Most people, royalist or not, don't actually identify with the royal family. They're a symbol... but what are they to our culture?

What else do we have? It's changed a lot. Victorians brought in a new wave of stuff. That's pretty much gone now.

Burning the effigy of a Catholic on a bonfire to celebrate parliament not being blown up and the protestant king not being assassinated? Whilst riling against that US halloween thing, that actually predates the US and possibly the gunpowder plot?

We don't rule the waves anymore.

[Trevor Hockey's Beard 527]

Following England is like being a Norwich fan - it's the hope that hurts, so on that basis I suggest "Heartbreaker" by Free.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,036]

Got to be "This is England" by The Clash..........

[Fen Canary 855]

1 hour ago, chicken said:

The country is currently, largely polorised. It has been made to be so by the main political parties because it suits them to entrench positions and fight over the fringes (weaker, easily turned localities).

The issue with this is that it does two things. It encourages more people to become familiar with extremes, and through lack of denouncement, legitimises them (see Ukip inviting in Tommy ten names Robinson).

The other thing it does is push this narrative that "if you don't 100% agree with me/us, you are one of them". You see it everywhere, on here, across social media... it's a manipulation.

The best example is 'make <insert country> great again'. Most people on earth would want their country to be, lets say free and prosperous for all. It's a loose defenition but you know.

When you say 'great again' you hark of a historical period.

It's impossible to have that discussion because if you do, and suggest that for the most of history until relatively recently, the view of greatness was dictated by the aristocracy and powerful elite. It wasn't one shared by the working classes.

My gran from the East End of London would often talk about living through the blitz as an aid station nurse. She'd also say that the best thing that came out of the war in London is that all of the slums, the woefully rubbish housing that was left was torn down and replaced.

What would be the problem with another cultural revolution? We're due one, last one was what? 1970's? England as it stands, lacks identity. Most people, royalist or not, don't actually identify with the royal family. They're a symbol... but what are they to our culture?

What else do we have? It's changed a lot. Victorians brought in a new wave of stuff. That's pretty much gone now.

Burning the effigy of a Catholic on a bonfire to celebrate parliament not being blown up and the protestant king not being assassinated? Whilst riling against that US halloween thing, that actually predates the US and possibly the gunpowder plot?

We don't rule the waves anymore.

But this is the rather miserable attitude I’m talking about. Yes Bonfire Night has largely lost its original anti Catholic sentiments, but why can’t you just enjoy it for what it is? An excuse to have a bonfire and set off some fireworks for the kids?

It’s the same people who moan constantly moan about living under a Monarchy. We all know they’ve had no power for hundreds of years, but the jubilees/weddings/coronations etc are one of the few things that are a shared experience for the country anymore. The late Queens jubilees were great. We all know they’re basically meaningless but most people just enjoyed the days off and various goings on. People were just in good spirits for a day or two.

You’ll hear the same bores loudly proclaiming that St George was Turkish/Greek every 23rd April, or moaning about the anthem because they don’t believe in God, or mocking the fact the national animal is a lion due to its association with a King who spent almost no time here outside of childhood.

To most people these little contradictions and idiosyncrasies are an important part of the culture and national narrative. Not everything has to born of puritan logic, it would make for an incredibly dull and soulless country in my opinion. 

Edited March 29 by Fen Canary

[daly 507]

Perhaps for another 30 to 50 years then who knows but it won’t be the England of the last century wouldn’t want to see this country destroyed but it’s inevitable it’s going to happen.

[chicken 2,640]

16 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

But this is the rather miserable attitude I’m talking about. Yes Bonfire Night has largely lost its original anti Catholic sentiments, but why can’t you just enjoy it for what it is? An excuse to have a bonfire and set off some fireworks for the kids?

It’s the same people who moan constantly moan about living under a Monarchy. We all know they’ve had no power for hundreds of years, but the jubilees/weddings/coronations etc are one of the few things that are a shared experience for the country anymore. The late Queens jubilees were great. We all know they’re basically meaningless but most people just enjoyed the days off and various goings on. People were just in good spirits for a day or two.

You’ll hear the same bores loudly proclaiming that St George was Turkish/Greek every 23rd April, or moaning about the anthem because they don’t believe in God, or mocking the fact the national animal is a lion due to its association with a King who spent almost no time outside of childhood.

To most people these little contradictions and idiosyncrasies are an important part of the culture and national narrative. Not everything has to born of puritan logic, it would make for an incredibly dull and soulless country in my opinion. 

You miss the point. The point is, none of these events are about the people that make England, English.

Agincourt was not only a decisive victory, but a massive victory of English peasantry over French nobility.

I've no problems with the Jubilee's etc, and this rather sums up my point. Everything gets thrown into the 'this isn't me' bucket and called the same.

The point I was making was that in the 1980's and 1990's, older folks were criticising Halloween calling it 'Americanisation', I had neighbours who'd tell off trick or treaters for being un-English. Yet here we are and it's as big if not bigger than 'Bonfire Night'.

The thing about St George and his flag that you miss is not that people are against him or it, but that many nationalists, or far right supporters are unaware of it's origins and neither are really good examples of 'Englishness'. (For what it's worth, he wasn't Turkish, it didn't exist then).

Every so often, we should, as a society, ask ourselves what it is we feel is our culture. I mean, it's been a while since 'mayday' had the meaning it did when I was a kid. For many youngsters, the monarchy are just representitive of the very wealthy elite.

[Fen Canary 855]

3 minutes ago, chicken said:

You miss the point. The point is, none of these events are about the people that make England, English.

Agincourt was not only a decisive victory, but a massive victory of English peasantry over French nobility.

I've no problems with the Jubilee's etc, and this rather sums up my point. Everything gets thrown into the 'this isn't me' bucket and called the same.

The point I was making was that in the 1980's and 1990's, older folks were criticising Halloween calling it 'Americanisation', I had neighbours who'd tell off trick or treaters for being un-English. Yet here we are and it's as big if not bigger than 'Bonfire Night'.

The thing about St George and his flag that you miss is not that people are against him or it, but that many nationalists, or far right supporters are unaware of it's origins and neither are really good examples of 'Englishness'. (For what it's worth, he wasn't Turkish, it didn't exist then).

Every so often, we should, as a society, ask ourselves what it is we feel is our culture. I mean, it's been a while since 'mayday' had the meaning it did when I was a kid. For many youngsters, the monarchy are just representitive of the very wealthy elite.

How do you know Nationalists don’t know the origins of St George or the flag? Why do you assume that you’re brighter or more educated than your political opponents? (I’m well aware Turkey didn’t exist, hence the Greek addition)

Even if they don’t know the exact origins, why would that matter? Why can’t something come to symbolise the nation, even if its exact origins don’t always perfectly align?

Why does everything that makes up a culture have to be identifiable? A culture is made up of thousands of events, histories, stories and shared experiences. It’s everything from famous historical victories, narratives (even heavily embellished ones), all the way down to music and television references. Trying to pin down what makes up a nations culture is a futile exercise, which is why various governments attempts at promoting British Values always ends up falling flat, especially as these values usually end up being meaningless busz words decided by a committee of managerialists.

One of the main things I noticed when living in the antipodes was when you’d make little jokes then realise nobody got the reference. It was the only real clues you had that you wasn’t in England anymore.

[dylanisabaddog 4,965]

7 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

I think that’s largely because the same people who complain about the anthem are the same ones who complain about the Monarchy, the nations history and seem to believe that half their fellow countrymen are knuckle dragging bigots.

If it was simply not liking the anthem it would be a different argument, but unfortunately you’d bet your house on knowing the entire political outlook of those that loudly complain. It’s simply one strand of the constant derision of England and the English 

I'd suggest you stay away from the betting sites! 

This was supposed to be a thread about an English anthem for the English football team but you've instead turned it into a narrow minded political rant. 

But as you've managed to drag it into the gutter I'd simply ask if you think Republicans love their country any less than monarchist? Do you really believe you love England more than some of the people who have made some very sensible posts here? 

As I said earlier, I doubt many object to the anthem we currently use when it's sung at Royal or British events. But England v Brazil has got nothing to do with Britain at all. 

Do you actually see the difference between England and Gt Britain? If not, you're the reason the people of Wales and Scotland dislike the English so much. 

Edited March 29 by dylanisabaddog

[cornish sam 960]

15 hours ago, Monty13 said:

Except it’s the other way round. God save the King is the U.K. National Anthem, England doesn’t have one and that’s why it’s used for most sporting events when England are represented.

Just to be a pedant, England does have a national anthem, it's the same as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, it's God Save the King. The songs those pseudo countries sing before sporting events can't be national anthems as they aren't real nations...

[KiwiScot 1,459]

Doesn't matter what you sing. Just try to score those penalties(without all the dancing about) 😉

[Herman 9,817]

15 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

Just to be a pedant, England does have a national anthem, it's the same as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, it's God Save the King. The songs those pseudo countries sing before sporting events can't be national anthems as they aren't real nations...

Ooof.....😄

[Newtopia 519]

An ‘English’ anthem, and one which avoids too many references to the past, and celebrates what could be would be awesome. 

[dylanisabaddog 4,965]

22 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

Just to be a pedant, England does have a national anthem, it's the same as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, it's God Save the King. The songs those pseudo countries sing before sporting events can't be national anthems as they aren't real nations...

Always embarrassing when a pedant gets it wrong. 

"God Save the King" (alternatively "God Save the Queen" when the British monarch is female) is the national anthem of the United Kingdom and the royal anthem of each of the British Crown Dependencies,^[1][2] one of two national anthems of New Zealand, and the royal anthem of most Commonwealth realms. "God Save the King" (alternatively "God Save the Queen" when the British monarch is female) is the national anthem of the United Kingdom and the royal anthem of each of the British Crown Dependencies,[1][2] one of two national anthems of New Zealand, and the royal anthem of most Commonwealth realms. The author of the tune is unknown and it may originate in plainchant, but an attribution to the composer John Bull has sometimes been made.

Edited March 29 by dylanisabaddog

[Fen Canary 855]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I'd suggest you stay away from the betting sites! 

This was supposed to be a thread about an English anthem for the English football team but you've instead turned it into a narrow minded political rant. 

But as you've managed to drag it into the gutter I'd simply ask if you think Republicans love their country any less than monarchist? Do you really believe you love England more than some of the people who have made some very sensible posts here? 

As I said earlier, I doubt many object to the anthem we currently use when it's sung at Royal or British events. But England v Brazil has got nothing to do with Britain at all. 

Do you actually see the difference between England and Gt Britain? If not, you're the reason the people of Wales and Scotland dislike the English so much. 

I don’t believe that being in favour of becoming a republic makes you less patriotic. However if you don’t like the monarchy, the anthem, the countries history and half of your fellow countrymen then I would suggest that yes that would make you less patriotic, and those that complain about one generally complain about all the others too 

[dylanisabaddog 4,965]

22 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I don’t believe that being in favour of becoming a republic makes you less patriotic. However if you don’t like the monarchy, the anthem, the countries history and half of your fellow countrymen then I would suggest that yes that would make you less patriotic, and those that complain about one generally complain about all the others too 

Have a look at the video of the Poland players in the first post. Do you think they are less patriotic than you? 

For that matter, do you really think that the Welsh are less patriotic than you?

You've just made yourself look very silly indeed. 

[cornish sam 960]

2 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Always embarrassing when a pedant gets it wrong. 

"God Save the King" (alternatively "God Save the Queen" when the British monarch is female) is the national anthem of the United Kingdom and the royal anthem of each of the British Crown Dependencies,^[1][2] one of two national anthems of New Zealand, and the royal anthem of most Commonwealth realms. "God Save the King" (alternatively "God Save the Queen" when the British monarch is female) is the national anthem of the United Kingdom and the royal anthem of each of the British Crown Dependencies,[1][2] one of two national anthems of New Zealand, and the royal anthem of most Commonwealth realms. The author of the tune is unknown and it may originate in plainchant, but an attribution to the composer John Bull has sometimes been made.

Being a pedant, that doesn't disagree with what I said, England itself is a pseudo country. It's like saying that cornwalls national anthem is god save the king...

[The Real Buh 3,455]

Being English is fine but being Norfolk?… now that’s what really counts.

[dylanisabaddog 4,965]

37 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

Being a pedant, that doesn't disagree with what I said, England itself is a pseudo country. It's like saying that cornwalls national anthem is god save the king...

Does this help? 

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/The-UK-Great-Britain-Whats-the-Difference/

 

[TheGunnShow 5,983]

5 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I'd suggest you stay away from the betting sites! 

This was supposed to be a thread about an English anthem for the English football team but you've instead turned it into a narrow minded political rant. 

But as you've managed to drag it into the gutter I'd simply ask if you think Republicans love their country any less than monarchist? Do you really believe you love England more than some of the people who have made some very sensible posts here? 

As I said earlier, I doubt many object to the anthem we currently use when it's sung at Royal or British events. But England v Brazil has got nothing to do with Britain at all. 

Do you actually see the difference between England and Gt Britain? If not, you're the reason the people of Wales and Scotland dislike the English so much. 

They don't, they just love a very specific version of it. And those who are critical of that version are not always any less patriotic. The closer a vision is to how you'd like to perceive things will determine how strongly you adhere to it.

[dylanisabaddog 4,965]

2 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

Being English is fine but being Norfolk?… now that’s what really counts.

I've just completed 60 years out of 64. Does that count? 💛💚

[The Real Buh 3,455]

Just now, dylanisabaddog said:

I've just completed 60 years out of 64. Does that count? 💛💚

Your application is under consideration lol!

[dylanisabaddog 4,965]

14 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

Your application is under consideration lol!

On my knees praying to the Pinkun forum 🙏

[cornish sam 960]

5 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Does this help? 

https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/The-UK-Great-Britain-Whats-the-Difference/

 

As I say, they're not really countries in the pedantic sense, even that article states "Just like Wales and Scotland, England is commonly referred to as a country but it is not a sovereign state. " So I guess, yes, it does help...to support my arguement 😁

 

Just to be clear, I don't really care, I just like shtstirring on this subject...