England V Belguim

[Indy 3,300]

2 hours ago, Well b back said:

That’s really interesting, I will happily stand corrected, but in 60 internationals statistically as I understand it, that is the first mistake Pickford has made, that has led to a goal being scored against us.

You’re too literal, two mistakes two goals, my point being on that day!😉

[dylanisabaddog 4,928]

8 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Poland deserved it, better side overall.

I'm half Polish and I found that game a bit of a struggle. If you can't score against Wales in 2 hours it doesn't bode well for the finals. Thankfully I'm also half English....... 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,720]

On the one hand we have players like Mainoo, Saka, Rice, Bellingham and Maddison..

 

But on the other hand we have Southgate as manager

[Robert N. LiM 4,357]

It was interesting to hear Bellingham's comments immediately after the game. First, what a staggeringly mature speaker he is for 20 or whatever he is.

Second, he said he was relieved when he scored because he knew how much negativity the England team would get if they'd lost twice in the same week.

It really made me think - seems to me that the negativity surrounding the team is way out of proportion. We have some really good, exciting players up front and some glaring weaknesses at the back. We'll probably be contenders at the Euros (personally I'd hope for the last four) but anyone thinking we should be winning it with the players we have is setting themselves up for disappointment. And while there are obvious areas you can criticise Southgate for (notably, in my view, his caution with subs and slowness in reacting to changes of the balance play in-games - the Italy final the most obvious example), the idea that he (I'll say it again, objectively England's most successful coach since Ramsey) is the one thing holding us back is just nonsense. There seems to be a weird mixture of entitlement on the one hand and nihilism on the other.

I'd say, get behind them this summer. It could be fun.

[......and Smith must score. 1,343]

Being amongst the steadily dwindling number who were actually alive when England last won anything it’s a path well trod.

It would be a pleasant surprise to see it happen again but I’m not holding my breath.

Edited March 27 by ......and Smith must score.

[Capt. Pants 4,234]

To be fair to England they played pretty well with some lovely link up play. Also impressed with the desire to get a result in a meaningless friendly right to the bitter end on a wet Wednesday.

As pointed out our weakness is in defence and I'm not sure any manager could magically produce a load of world class defenders from who is available. It's a systemic problem as mentioned in this thread.

If Southgate tries to negate that by playing 2 defensive midfielders he gets pelters for that. I'm not sure what the answer is.

It will be interesting to see who the next manager will be. Probably Eddie Howe once Newcastle boot him out in the summer. He likes donkey CBs though so don't expect miracles.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,720]

4 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

To be fair to England they played pretty well with some lovely link up play. Also impressed with the desire to get a result in a meaningless friendly right to the bitter end on a wet Wednesday.

As pointed out our weakness is in defence and I'm not sure any manager could magically produce a load of world class defenders from who is available. It's a systemic problem as mentioned in this thread.

If Southgate tries to negate that by playing 2 defensive midfielders he gets pelters for that. I'm not sure what the answer is.

It will be interesting to see who the next manager will be. Probably Eddie Howe once Newcastle boot him out in the summer. He likes donkey CBs though so don't expect miracles.

Least if Howe takes over England Dan Burn might get a long overdue England call up.. Can't do worse than Dunk

Edited March 27 by cambridgeshire canary

[Capt. Pants 4,234]

1 minute ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Least if Howe takes over England Dan Burn might get a long overdue England call up.. Can't do worse than Dunk

I hardly think that will solve any problems though. 

Burn is 31, it would be a step backwards. 

[Jimmy_Fitch 35]

Maddison looked so good for England last night. Instantly started making defense splitting passes and what an assist for the goal. I generally believe he is less selfish than other players and would rather assist than take all the glory.

[king canary 7,607]

2 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

It was interesting to hear Bellingham's comments immediately after the game. First, what a staggeringly mature speaker he is for 20 or whatever he is.

Second, he said he was relieved when he scored because he knew how much negativity the England team would get if they'd lost twice in the same week.

It really made me think - seems to me that the negativity surrounding the team is way out of proportion. We have some really good, exciting players up front and some glaring weaknesses at the back. We'll probably be contenders at the Euros (personally I'd hope for the last four) but anyone thinking we should be winning it with the players we have is setting themselves up for disappointment. And while there are obvious areas you can criticise Southgate for (notably, in my view, his caution with subs and slowness in reacting to changes of the balance play in-games - the Italy final the most obvious example), the idea that he (I'll say it again, objectively England's most successful coach since Ramsey) is the one thing holding us back is just nonsense. There seems to be a weird mixture of entitlement on the one hand and nihilism on the other.

I'd say, get behind them this summer. It could be fun.

Yeah exactly.

I get Southgate isn't sexy and is far from perfect but you've got people claiming he's our worst ever manager which is just mental. I even remember someone on here saying they wouldn't celebrate England winning a tournament with Southgate at the helm which is a whole other level of hatred for a largely inoffensive manager.

I think there is this idea that in international football it is automatic that if you have 11 great players it is easy but we've seen golden generations from lots of different countries struggle to win tournaments. I think Southgate is out if we don't at least make the semi finals this year but his record has been excellent by any metric.

[hogesar 9,676]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Yeah exactly.

I get Southgate isn't sexy and is far from perfect but you've got people claiming he's our worst ever manager which is just mental. I even remember someone on here saying they wouldn't celebrate England winning a tournament with Southgate at the helm which is a whole other level of hatred for a largely inoffensive manager.

I think there is this idea that in international football it is automatic that if you have 11 great players it is easy but we've seen golden generations from lots of different countries struggle to win tournaments. I think Southgate is out if we don't at least make the semi finals this year but his record has been excellent by any metric.

Yep, Southgate isn't "sexy" but he's likely one of the most successful England managers in most peoples supporting lifetimes.

I saw this shared on Twitter, from an Ipswich fan out of everyone I believe. Since 1975 or something:

Don Revie - Never Qualified
Ron Greenwood - 1x Group Stage, 1x 2nd round, 1x failed to qualify
Bobby Robson - 1x failed to qualify, 1x Quarter final, 1x Group stage, 1x semi-final
Graham Taylor - 1x group stage, 1x failed to qualify
Terry Venables - 1x Semi Final
Glenn Hoddle - 1x 2nd Round
Kevin Keegan - 1x Group stage
Sven Goran-Eriksson - 3x quarter finals
Steve McClaren - Never qualified
Fabio Capello - 1x 2nd round
Roy Hodgson - 1x quarter final, 1x group stage, 1x 2nd round

Awful all round, bar a couple of moments, Sir Bobby, Terry Venables

Then, finally,

Gareth Southgate - 1x Semi final, 1x Final, 1x Quarter Final

[king canary 7,607]

8 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yep, Southgate isn't "sexy" but he's likely one of the most successful England managers in most peoples supporting lifetimes.

I saw this shared on Twitter, from an Ipswich fan out of everyone I believe. Since 1975 or something:

Don Revie - Never Qualified
Ron Greenwood - 1x Group Stage, 1x 2nd round, 1x failed to qualify
Bobby Robson - 1x failed to qualify, 1x Quarter final, 1x Group stage, 1x semi-final
Graham Taylor - 1x group stage, 1x failed to qualify
Terry Venables - 1x Semi Final
Glenn Hoddle - 1x 2nd Round
Kevin Keegan - 1x Group stage
Sven Goran-Eriksson - 3x quarter finals
Steve McClaren - Never qualified
Fabio Capello - 1x 2nd round
Roy Hodgson - 1x quarter final, 1x group stage, 1x 2nd round

Awful all round, bar a couple of moments, Sir Bobby, Terry Venables

Then, finally,

Gareth Southgate - 1x Semi final, 1x Final, 1x Quarter Final

One of the favourite refrains of people who think Southgate is dreadful is 'anyone could do what he's done with this squad' which requires ignoring that nobody else has managed to do it with any England squad. 

This squad particularly is very imbalanced- loads of excellent attacking midfielders, one fantastic central midfielder some good right backs, not much in central defence, in goal or at left back. So the idea it should be easy for this squad to make it to the later rounds doesn't add up to me. 

[BroadstairsR 2,169]

21 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Then, finally,

Gareth Southgate - 1x Semi final, 1x Final, 1x Quarter Final

That's always been my argument in his favour. He's achieved more than most by a stretch.

Yes, he has some very good players to select from, and yes he has Harry Kane, but most of these managers have had their fair share of those as well, tracking back over the years.

I do feel him a bit conservative at times, but it is international football, and we were surely up against some very decent attacking units in getting as far as he has done with the teams at his disposal.

Didn't he also lose a couple of crucial games on penalty shoot-outs too?

For some reason, he is pilloried for sticking with Henderson so much and relying upon his trusted players overmuch. Furthermore, we don't seem to have unearthed any top class central defenders, as we have in the past, the best in the PL being from abroad.

Perhaps, after the two friendlies, these negative factors could be reduced because although they were criticised as a waste of time by some the manager may have leaned a lot with the unearthing of young Mainoo and others. 

Edited March 27 by BroadstairsR

[hogesar 9,676]

4 minutes ago, king canary said:

One of the favourite refrains of people who think Southgate is dreadful is 'anyone could do what he's done with this squad' which requires ignoring that nobody else has managed to do it with any England squad. 

This squad particularly is very imbalanced- loads of excellent attacking midfielders, one fantastic central midfielder some good right backs, not much in central defence, in goal or at left back. So the idea it should be easy for this squad to make it to the later rounds doesn't add up to me. 

Yep, and most of our talent is young and been pushed through the England ranks by Southgate. And he's great at it. But worth noting some of them only have tournament experience recently.

I think overall we have a good side but we've had equally good, arguably better and more experienced sides, fail under managers who others deem "better".

I also think we play some nice stuff under Southgate. Unfortunately most fans seem to think international football is played at the same pace as Premier League club football 100% of the time. And England are the only team who don't do it and it's because of Gareth.

[king canary 7,607]

9 minutes ago, hogesar said:

IYep, and most of our talent is young and been pushed through the England ranks by Southgate. And he's great at it. But worth noting some of them only have tournament experience recently.

I think overall we have a good side but we've had equally good, arguably better and more experienced sides, fail under managers who others deem "better".

I also think we play some nice stuff under Southgate. Unfortunately most fans seem to think international football is played at the same pace as Premier League club football 100% of the time. And England are the only team who don't do it and it's because of Gareth.

There is a fair bit I think he can improve on- his unwillingness to move on from players like Henderson and Maguire has been a real frustration, along with his unwillingness to use Ward-Prowse and Tomori. I'd also say he is sometimes oddly conservative in giving new players chances in friendlies or qualifiers against much lower ranked teams. But also I do sense some people think he should be able to fit Saka, Bellingham, Grealish, Maddison, Foden, Rashford and Kane all into the starting XI and unless he's giving every single attacking player a start he's too conservative. 

These friendlies have been useful in that we've shown we can dominate possession against a good side like Belgium and play on the front foot. It has also exposed the fact we very much need to be playing with two defensive midfielders rather than trying to shoehorn another attack minded player next to Rice. 

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

5 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

On the one hand we have players like Mainoo, Saka, Rice, Bellingham and Maddison..

 

But on the other hand we have Southgate as manager

4 wins in 26 games against top 10 opposition and there's still delusional people who think we can win something under this clown. 

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

36 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yep, Southgate isn't "sexy" but he's likely one of the most successful England managers in most peoples supporting lifetimes.

I saw this shared on Twitter, from an Ipswich fan out of everyone I believe. Since 1975 or something:

Don Revie - Never Qualified
Ron Greenwood - 1x Group Stage, 1x 2nd round, 1x failed to qualify
Bobby Robson - 1x failed to qualify, 1x Quarter final, 1x Group stage, 1x semi-final
Graham Taylor - 1x group stage, 1x failed to qualify
Terry Venables - 1x Semi Final
Glenn Hoddle - 1x 2nd Round
Kevin Keegan - 1x Group stage
Sven Goran-Eriksson - 3x quarter finals
Steve McClaren - Never qualified
Fabio Capello - 1x 2nd round
Roy Hodgson - 1x quarter final, 1x group stage, 1x 2nd round

Awful all round, bar a couple of moments, Sir Bobby, Terry Venables

Then, finally,

Gareth Southgate - 1x Semi final, 1x Final, 1x Quarter Final

Also 4 wins in 26 against top 10 ranked opposition. 

He's been lucky not good.

[chicken 2,625]

5 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Also 4 wins in 26 against top 10 ranked opposition. 

He's been lucky not good.

How many of those were competitive fixtures? Not the silly nations league thing either. But qualifiers and tournaments? And how many were draws?

[hogesar 9,676]

12 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Also 4 wins in 26 against top 10 ranked opposition. 

He's been lucky not good.

I think when you start claiming a manager has simply been lucky over multiple years it's likely because there's not much more substance to back it up.

 

17 minutes ago, king canary said:

There is a fair bit I think he can improve on- his unwillingness to move on from players like Henderson and Maguire has been a real frustration, along with his unwillingness to use Ward-Prowse and Tomori. I'd also say he is sometimes oddly conservative in giving new players chances in friendlies or qualifiers against much lower ranked teams. But also I do sense some people think he should be able to fit Saka, Bellingham, Grealish, Maddison, Foden, Rashford and Kane all into the starting XI and unless he's giving every single attacking player a start he's too conservative. 

These friendlies have been useful in that we've shown we can dominate possession against a good side like Belgium and play on the front foot. It has also exposed the fact we very much need to be playing with two defensive midfielders rather than trying to shoehorn another attack minded player next to Rice. 

Hmmm. I disagree a bit.

I totally get why people want Southgate to move on from some of the experienced players and certainly Henderson is probably the biggest call. But I completely understand why he hasn't. As an international manager you're only with the players for such short periods of time and he's somehow built this "club like" mentality and has players getting along and actually wanting to play for England and turn up for International friendlies.

When the rest of the team has been changing a bit around these players I understand him wanting to keep a few in situ. Henderson in particular, I remember the Ben Foster podcast with another player I cant name, both saying how Henderson for Liverpool was basically a second manager on the pitch and even the likes of Salah were looking at him for instruction, and would literally do anything he  asked without question. As professional footballers they were taken aback a bit.

I think that's got to be such an advantage to a manager in international football that perhaps it's clouded his judgement on the footballing ability side - and until recently we've not actually had lots of guaranteed better options. I think that's different this tournament.

[king canary 7,607]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think when you start claiming a manager has simply been lucky over multiple years it's likely because there's not much more substance to back it up.

 

Hmmm. I disagree a bit.

I totally get why people want Southgate to move on from some of the experienced players and certainly Henderson is probably the biggest call. But I completely understand why he hasn't. As an international manager you're only with the players for such short periods of time and he's somehow built this "club like" mentality and has players getting along and actually wanting to play for England and turn up for International friendlies.

When the rest of the team has been changing a bit around these players I understand him wanting to keep a few in situ. Henderson in particular, I remember the Ben Foster podcast with another player I cant name, both saying how Henderson for Liverpool was basically a second manager on the pitch and even the likes of Salah were looking at him for instruction, and would literally do anything he  asked without question. As professional footballers they were taken aback a bit.

I think that's got to be such an advantage to a manager in international football that perhaps it's clouded his judgement on the footballing ability side - and until recently we've not actually had lots of guaranteed better options. I think that's different this tournament.

Yeah to clarify I didn't have a problem with him picking Henderson and Maguire in the 22 WC- but I was hoping this cycle between tournaments was the one where he'd start to move away from them and that has been a very slow process- Henderson coming back to actual competitive level football helps his case too. 

Also re Ken, he's the mentalist behind this post so he's clearly completely blinded by Southgate hate.

Imagine not wanting England to win a major tournament because it means a manager you don't rate gets credit. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Been saying for a long time that England's squad is not really good enough due to being as imbalanced as it is, and this latest round of chat's beginning to see it too.

Put it this way, if an international centre-half of considerable ability is now the manager, and England is lacking defenders (and goalies) of genuine top-tier international quality, what's he supposed to do? If he goes "sod it, attack, attack, attack" then they will get countered to death. Remember the 5-3 against Kosovo? Try that same tactic against France or Brazil and have a nice bet on the over/under 3.5 goals and France or Brazil to win.

This England side are gatekeepers. They'll beat most sides but the best sides (or similar gatekeeper sides that have more rounded, balanced teams) beat them more often than not.

Edited March 27 by TheGunnShow

[ron obvious 1,502]

5 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Least if Howe takes over England Dan Burn might get a long overdue England call up.. Can't do worse than Dunk

He might even start playing Maddison, the one most likely to create something out of nothing.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,024]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Yep, Southgate isn't "sexy" but he's likely one of the most successful England managers in most peoples supporting lifetimes.

I saw this shared on Twitter, from an Ipswich fan out of everyone I believe. Since 1975 or something:

Don Revie - Never Qualified
Ron Greenwood - 1x Group Stage, 1x 2nd round, 1x failed to qualify
Bobby Robson - 1x failed to qualify, 1x Quarter final, 1x Group stage, 1x semi-final
Graham Taylor - 1x group stage, 1x failed to qualify
Terry Venables - 1x Semi Final
Glenn Hoddle - 1x 2nd Round
Kevin Keegan - 1x Group stage
Sven Goran-Eriksson - 3x quarter finals
Steve McClaren - Never qualified
Fabio Capello - 1x 2nd round
Roy Hodgson - 1x quarter final, 1x group stage, 1x 2nd round

Awful all round, bar a couple of moments, Sir Bobby, Terry Venables

Then, finally,

Gareth Southgate - 1x Semi final, 1x Final, 1x Quarter Final

Within all that awfulness I would like to highlight Spain 1982 as being not that bad. Played 5, won three, drew 2 lost 0

It was the year there were two group stages, in the second group stage we had West Germany and Spain and we drew both games 0-0.

I am not saying we would have won the World Cup that year but we had a couple of injuries (Coppell and Keegan) and if memory serves me (which I would not rely on), we came close to beating Spain. 

Despite all of the above I agree that Southgate gets unfair criticism...........

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

I think when you start claiming a manager has simply been lucky over multiple years it's likely because there's not much more substance to back 

Utter nonsense Hogstar. I would agree if you're talking a 46 game season you get what you deserve but a 6 or 7 game cup tournament luck can (and so obviously did) get you far. 

I've already provided the substance for you, 4 wins in 26 against top 10 opposition, that's utterly pathetic.

Southgate is a horrendous manager, why do you think everyone is pissing themselves at the thought of him going to United? I genuinely think he'd relegated them.

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

2 hours ago, chicken said:

How many of those were competitive fixtures? Not the silly nations league thing either. But qualifiers and tournaments? And how many were draws?

Does it matter? 

[chicken 2,625]

4 hours ago, Ken Hairy said:

Does it matter? 

Of course it does. Pre season friendlies are never quoted in a winning or losing streak for club level managers / head coaches, so why should they count internationally?

And what is a top ten side? Fifa world rankings? We're currently 3rd... can't be doing that badly?

We lost to Brazil with a very different team that was put out and drew with Belgium. Brazil are 5th and Belgium 4th. The team we put out against Brazil was more experimental - in terms of having a look at players that didn't have many caps and were young, and we drew.

It says everything though. Friendlies are a chance to get players to practice playing with each other and deploying the tactics etc of the manager. It's not going to be perfect, it's the place where it doesn't have to be. Like a rehearsal.

Equally, when we beat Italy 3-1 in October last year, they were ranked 9th in the world, as they are now. And that was a competitive fixture.

For those 26 games, does that take us back to the start of Southgate's England managerial tenure? If so, that's 8yrs. A lot has changed in that time... his first England team was:

Hart, Walker, Stones, Cahill, Bertrand, Henderson, Alli, Rooney, Walcott, Lingard, Sturridge.

It underlines what he had to start off with, and what he has had to try and develop over that time. If we're honest, outside of Kane, we probably lack someone of Sturridges quality. Toney is a poorer version of him, is Watkins as good? Rooney was fading by then, but we've not seen his quality since really. Bertrand wasn't really England Material, Walcott and Lingard never lived up to their hype, Alli has sadly had off the pitch struggles. Young Stones, Walker and Henderson are still going, two very much into their 30's now.

I think you have to be kind, and realise that England are actually punching their weight, if not well beyond it IMHO. 

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

9 hours ago, chicken said:

Of course it does. Pre season friendlies are never quoted in a winning or losing streak for club level managers / head coaches, so why should they count internationally?

And what is a top ten side? Fifa world rankings? We're currently 3rd... can't be doing that badly?

We lost to Brazil with a very different team that was put out and drew with Belgium. Brazil are 5th and Belgium 4th. The team we put out against Brazil was more experimental - in terms of having a look at players that didn't have many caps and were young, and we drew.

It says everything though. Friendlies are a chance to get players to practice playing with each other and deploying the tactics etc of the manager. It's not going to be perfect, it's the place where it doesn't have to be. Like a rehearsal.

Equally, when we beat Italy 3-1 in October last year, they were ranked 9th in the world, as they are now. And that was a competitive fixture.

For those 26 games, does that take us back to the start of Southgate's England managerial tenure? If so, that's 8yrs. A lot has changed in that time... his first England team was:

Hart, Walker, Stones, Cahill, Bertrand, Henderson, Alli, Rooney, Walcott, Lingard, Sturridge.

It underlines what he had to start off with, and what he has had to try and develop over that time. If we're honest, outside of Kane, we probably lack someone of Sturridges quality. Toney is a poorer version of him, is Watkins as good? Rooney was fading by then, but we've not seen his quality since really. Bertrand wasn't really England Material, Walcott and Lingard never lived up to their hype, Alli has sadly had off the pitch struggles. Young Stones, Walker and Henderson are still going, two very much into their 30's now.

I think you have to be kind, and realise that England are actually punching their weight, if not well beyond it IMHO. 

Comparing pre season club friendlies to International ones is daft they're totally different.

If we're talking actual competitive games then he's won 2 both vs Italy and that's just on the assumption that they were top 10 at that time, I'm not 100% sure they actually were as they didn't qualify for the world cup. That's just really really poor. 

Ask yourself this, would you want Southgate replacing Wagner? I 100% wouldn't, so we have a man managing these superb group of, attacking players who plays defensively and wouldn't be good enough to replace the 6th place Championship manager.

I'll never ever get the Southgate love in.

[Robert N. LiM 4,357]

18 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

This England side are gatekeepers. They'll beat most sides but the best sides (or similar gatekeeper sides that have more rounded, balanced teams) beat them more often than not.

And this has basically always been the case. I've been watching England in tournaments since 1986 and the pattern is fairly clear. We beat the teams we expect to beat and lose to the top sides. If we define a top side as 'a team that's won the world cup', I think I'm right in saying that we've only beaten one of them in a major tournament knock-out game since 1966: Germany in Euro2020 under [checks notes] Gareth Southgate.

Our par achievement is quarter-finalists - anything less than that is a disappointment, anything more than that an achievement.

This year, thanks to the attacking talent we have at our disposal I'd hope we can reach the semi-finals. But the defensive weaknesses we have make it unlikely we can compete with the very best (except, as you say, by playing more defensively than Southgate's critics would like and trying to stay in games).

And I'll just come back to my old refrain. You can think England would do better under Anyone But Southgate if you like. But you have to acknowledge that they've done better under him than under Anyone Else Who Has Actually Done The Job Since 1970.

[chicken 2,625]

2 hours ago, Ken Hairy said:

Comparing pre season club friendlies to International ones is daft they're totally different.

If we're talking actual competitive games then he's won 2 both vs Italy and that's just on the assumption that they were top 10 at that time, I'm not 100% sure they actually were as they didn't qualify for the world cup. That's just really really poor. 

Ask yourself this, would you want Southgate replacing Wagner? I 100% wouldn't, so we have a man managing these superb group of, attacking players who plays defensively and wouldn't be good enough to replace the 6th place Championship manager.

I'll never ever get the Southgate love in.

The FIFA rankings website allows you to look back at rankings at different points. So yes, Italy were 9th in October when England beat them.

Comparing them isn't daft... they serve very similar purposes in terms of experimentation of tactics, selection, roles and formations. On top of that it's about personnel playing together and getting accustomed to each other and building team spirit.

Unless of course you want 'friendlies' to be considered to be serious fixtures, then it's not daft... 

I never get why folks who don't rate someone have to go the extra mile to rubbish them. Not recognising achievements is a very poor way to not rate someone.

It sounds like he'd have to lead the team to a tournament victory to be seen as good. Considering more 'qualified' coaches than him have had better teams over the years and failed to do so suggests he is doing well.

Two friendlies don't change that. Especially when at this stage in the season, many players are pushing hard for their clubs.

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

I'm not belittling his achievements,  but it cannot be denied he's been the luckiest England manager ever in terms of tournament draws etc. Now there's nothing wrong with having luck, all the greats will have had luck along the way, Fergie with Mark Robins for example, but eventually luck runs out and if you have nothing else you come crashing down.

Comparing him to previous eras is a faux pas too, Southgate hasn't been managing in a time of great Brazil, Germany, Italy, Spain squads like in the past where all the world class players came from only these nations, nowadays they're spread out more, Egypt etc.

In my opinion the likes of Robson, Venebles, would have won a trophy in the past 2 tournaments,  obviously that's just opinion and can't be proven.