Have we fallen at all?

[GenerationA47 761]

3 hours ago, king canary said:

I think this is a really interesting point.

It is easy for someone in their 60's to sit back and say 'it's all cyclical, I remember when we were awful in 1968 but brilliant in 1988' but to expect a 26 year old to consider that in their thinking isn't going to happen. I don't think it is entitled to base it on your own experience.

If written records didn’t exist, I might sympathise with this view. If we just had to rely on trusting the random thoughts of old-timers (no disrespect!)  who assured us that things weren’t really as good as what we’ve got now.

I, too, feel sad we’re not pushing at the top of the English game as we were when/just before I started supporting Norwich. That doesn’t stop me looking at the facts about the context of that era. 

[ricardo 7,401]

1 hour ago, Old Shuck said:

Was it as bad as it looks?

Worse, we went 26 games without a win that season. When we finally won a game I think it was against Millwall and we won 2-0 with a gate of about 11k or 12k.

[king canary 7,679]

10 minutes ago, GenerationA47 said:

If written records didn’t exist, I might sympathise with this view. If we just had to rely on trusting the random thoughts of old-timers (no disrespect!)  who assured us that things weren’t really as good as what we’ve got now.

I, too, feel sad we’re not pushing at the top of the English game as we were when/just before I started supporting Norwich. That doesn’t stop me looking at the facts about the context of that era. 

Yes but its about your own experience isn't it, not just written records?

'We were great in the 70's so it's OK that we're crap now' isn't relevant to someone who was born 20 years after that happened. If you've never seen your team lift a cup or play in Europe then the fact these things happened before you were born is largely irrelevant to that person.

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

4 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yes but its about your own experience isn't it, not just written records?

'We were great in the 70's so it's OK that we're crap now' isn't relevant to someone who was born 20 years after that happened. If you've never seen your team lift a cup or play in Europe then the fact these things happened before you were born is largely irrelevant to that person.

Imagine what its like to be 1p5wich...

[ricardo 7,401]

10 minutes ago, king canary said:

 If you've never seen your team lift a cup or play in Europe then the fact these things happened before you were born is largely irrelevant to that person.

Read TWTD, It doesn't appear to be irrelevant to them.

The history of the club you support is always relevant and the longer you've experienced that history the better your perspective of the status and relative position of your club becomes.

If all you have ever seen is glory then reversion to the mean comes as sharp shock. For me its just part of the ever changing series of ups and downs that form part of my NCFC sipporting life.

[king canary 7,679]

1 minute ago, ricardo said:

Read TWTD, It doesn't appear to be irrelevant to them.

The history of the club you support is always relevant and the longer you've experienced that history the better your perspective of the status and relative position of your club becomes.

If all you have ever seen is glory then reversion to the mean comes as sharp shock. For me its just part of the ever changing series of ups and downs that form part of my NCFC sipporting life.

Your right that your perspective is changed by your age. However your own perspective is just that- your own. Asking younger fans to tolerate mediocrity in their experiences because of stuff that happened long before they were born is just a bit silly in my view.

[king canary 7,679]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

The first relegation was weird for me. Normally I think I'd have been far more angry about our no-show but I'd been to Leicester at home which we'd won and obviously the Spurs Cup game. 

Then when everything restarted without fans I had so much going on outside of football to worry about I guess I didn't get very involved and especially with not being able to go.

Had the same results happened with fans in the stadium I doubt Farke would have had the opportunity for the second title win...

To be honest you're then into the world of difficult hypotheticals- I really doubt that without the pause and the restart that we'd have lost 10 on the bounce to finish the season (although I remain certain we'd still have been relegated) so I reckon Farke would have been safe regardless.

[ricardo 7,401]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

Your right that your perspective is changed by your age. However your own perspective is just that- your own. Asking younger fans to tolerate mediocrity in their experiences because of stuff that happened long before they were born is just a bit silly in my view.

Mediocrity is all part of the experience of supporting most football clubs except for the ultra elite. Neither good nor bad times last forever.

[S_81 871]

The frustration is due to missed opportunities. In part you could argue we overachieved to even get into the premier league during our recent stints. And our financial power certainly meant our work would be cut out to stay there. But with better use of the resources and some more ruthlessness in dismissing managers we could arguably have increased our stay of execution. Personally I see us as being a club at Championship level. But one that accrues enough talent to get a chance in the top flight every now and again. Until we are forced to sell that talent. 
That likely won’t change unless we get wealthy owners in. 
I think we are currently in a state where we once again have opportunity re promotion (as 5th/6th could be well be better locked in for us). Personally I don’t believe we have the manager or ruthlessness of decision re him to capitalise on it. 
But once again, I hope to be proved wrong. 

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

2 minutes ago, S_81 said:

The frustration is due to missed opportunities. In part you could argue we overachieved to even get into the premier league during our recent stints. And our financial power certainly meant our work would be cut out to stay there. But with better use of the resources and some more ruthlessness in dismissing managers we could arguably have increased our stay of execution. Personally I see us as being a club at Championship level. But one that accrues enough talent to get a chance in the top flight every now and again. Until we are forced to sell that talent. 
That likely won’t change unless we get wealthy owners in. 
I think we are currently in a state where we once again have opportunity re promotion (as 5th/6th could be well be better locked in for us). Personally I don’t believe we have the manager or ruthlessness of decision re him to capitalise on it. 
But once again, I hope to be proved wrong. 

Being devils advocate here - they are  / were (sadly) several EPL managers that for lack of a better word 'specialized' in keeping lower ranked EPL clubs in the division.

I rather suspect you wouldn't like their brand of football!  

[hogesar 9,759]

30 minutes ago, king canary said:

To be honest you're then into the world of difficult hypotheticals- I really doubt that without the pause and the restart that we'd have lost 10 on the bounce to finish the season (although I remain certain we'd still have been relegated) so I reckon Farke would have been safe regardless.

Yes, I reckon you're probably right but then in that hypothetical scenario we might have then felt like we did compete and give it a go that season. Who knows!

[hogesar 9,759]

14 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Being devils advocate here - they are  / were (sadly) several EPL managers that for lack of a better word 'specialized' in keeping lower ranked EPL clubs in the division.

I rather suspect you wouldn't like their brand of football!  

Yes, Hughton done his job that first season despite people not being happy with his brand of football. Even that second season, when Hughton was sacked I think we were 5 points clear of the relegation zone with 5, admittedly very difficult, fixtures left. Yet that was the most toxic since Roeder for wanting a manager out. Imagine how positive we'd have been had Farke had that record at Prem level!

You're right that our fans do have a bit of a "we're better than those managers style" approach which has been ingrained ever since I remember. I don't disagree with it, I'm not a fan of watching a lot of the football from those managers but ultimately, without hundreds of millions to spend, it's either that or relegation - as Burnley are now feeling.

[shefcanary 2,465]

21 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Mediocrity is all part of the experience of supporting most football clubs except for the ultra elite. Neither good nor bad times last forever.

Ah, but there are also levels of mediocrity as well. Everton have been pretty mediocre for much of the time since the late 80's, but still haven't left the echelon's of the top league. Liverpool were mediocre for much of the period from the same late 80's until Klopp finally returned, once again never leaving the top division. Man Utd, Arsenal, Spurs during that period were mediocre in turn. But yet never left the the top league. 

You may scoff, but that is the level of mediocrity that our younger brethren would consider as acceptable. Not being mediocre in the Championship. 

It's levels for levels, as some might say. 😉 

We just have to find out whether Attanasio and his fellow investors accepts mediocrity in any shape or form.

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yes, Hughton done his job that first season despite people not being happy with his brand of football. Even that second season, when Hughton was sacked I think we were 5 points clear of the relegation zone with 5, admittedly very difficult, fixtures left. Yet that was the most toxic since Roeder for wanting a manager out. Imagine how positive we'd have been had Farke had that record at Prem level!

The case for the prosecution rests!

[chicken 2,648]

1 hour ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Yes, agree, except for the bit about Buendía, who always had an edge about him and got better and better at the defensive side of the game. Probably my favourite goal of the second Farke title season was Pukki's against Huddersfield in the 7-0, when Emi won a ball that wasn't even a 50/50 near the touchline, played a one-two (iirc) then an inch-perfect through ball to Teemu, who was already making one of those trademark curved runs. Emi/Teemu in excelsis.

And just to piggyback on @yellowfever's similar point, yes that expansive style of football was probably ill-suited to being adapted in the PL, but personally I have few regrets. It was just so beautiful to watch. Those middle three seasons of Farkeball are my favourite since the early 90s, with all due respect to the Lambert team which was very exciting and much more resilient.

Re Buendia, I would say his defenisve development very much came in his last season with us. He cut a very petulant figure at times in the premier league, often seen slapping the floor after failing to dribble past three players. One of the biggest criticisms of him up to that point was the defensive side of his game. Probably best highlighted with his needless sending off during project restart.

Whilst the football was good to watch under Farke, a good number of people on here always underlined it's defensive frailties, I would say as a team rather than just the defensive department. In the premier league we looked like an inexperienced boxer going up against a seasoned one, throwing punches wildly and getting suckered on every counter.

Lambert sides were always resilient, something Farke sides lacked. There are three phases in football... there is absolutely no point excelling in just one, especially if at the detriment of the other two. Look at Holt and Barnes, and to an extent Jerome too - being a handful upfront with intelligence and helping defend when called upon. They made it hard for any defender in terms of movement, dropping deep, and physicality as well as coming back for set pieces.

Lamberts reign will always be better than Farke's for me. He really did get the best out of players and his brand of football is what I would call "swashbuckling". Farkeball is nice, but having a glass jaw never really helped and Farke couldn't fix it. As some folks said, against stiffer opposition, even in the championship, it was like he had no plan B, or in otherwords, no answers to the questions better teams asked of us.

Holt and Hoolahan Vs Pukki and Buendia. You can argue which are better, but which actually achieved more for us? For me there is no doubt that H&H succeeded where P&B didn't.

 

[It's Character Forming 1,166]

4 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

So over the last 10 years our average position is roughly 24th

Over the last 20 years our average position is roughly 26th

Over the last 30 years our average position is roughly 27th

C'est la vie say the old folks...

LOL you just made those numbers up, didn't you ?!

[chicken 2,648]

2 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Ah, but there are also levels of mediocrity as well. Everton have been pretty mediocre for much of the time since the late 80's, but still haven't left the echelon's of the top league. Liverpool were mediocre for much of the period from the same late 80's until Klopp finally returned, once again never leaving the top division. Man Utd, Arsenal, Spurs during that period were mediocre in turn. But yet never left the the top league. 

You may scoff, but that is the level of mediocrity that our younger brethren would consider as acceptable. Not being mediocre in the Championship. 

It's levels for levels, as some might say. 😉 

We just have to find out whether Attanasio and his fellow investors accepts mediocrity in any shape or form.

I have to say, what you are calling "mediocre" is questionable. Everton and Liverpool throughout the '90's and 2000's may not have been challenging for the premier league title but they were often challenging for, on indeed competing in, European football. They both were regular top 8 teams.

Outside the likes of big spending Chelsea, the then Man Utd monopoly, Arsenal, Spurs and then latterly big spending Man City, they were two of the other top teams. Bigger in stature too. After all, in the period you are talking about, Liverpool lost out on the title to a Gerrard slip, and managed to win the Champions League.

When you talk about levels of mediocrity, I think mid table premier league is barely mediocrity, it's between say, 8th to 14th in the Premier League, hoping to get a sniff at European football.

Mediocrity is always relative. Mid table premier league for us is not mediocrity, it represents ambition of being premier league established. It doesn't happen quickly or overnight - as Brentford and Brighton have established, but ensuring you can easily tread water first in that league and a whole lot of patience.

Mediocrity in the championship is a different beast. There are four more teams competing. It's a graveyard of premier league ambition that teams that have never experienced it try to grow out of. Some teams would love to be resting in championship mediocrity having established themselves at a level they have strived to achieve for some time.

 

[chicken 2,648]

2 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

LOL you just made those numbers up, didn't you ?!

Last full 10 seasons: 
2013-2014- 18th( PL)
2014-2015- 3rd (Ch) so 23rd
2015-2016- 19th (PL)
2016-2017- 8th (Ch) so 28th
2017-2018- 14th (Ch) so 34th
2018-2019- 1st (Ch) so 21st
2019-2020- 20th (PL)
2020-2021- 1st (Ch) so 21st
2021-2022- 20th (PL)
2022-23- 13th (Ch) so 33rd

Average of 23.7 when you add all of the places up and divide it by ten. Nutty is right there. I would suggest his numbers probably are pretty reliable. 

 

[essex canary 506]

1 hour ago, S_81 said:

The frustration is due to missed opportunities. In part you could argue we overachieved to even get into the premier league during our recent stints. And our financial power certainly meant our work would be cut out to stay there. But with better use of the resources and some more ruthlessness in dismissing managers we could arguably have increased our stay of execution. Personally I see us as being a club at Championship level. But one that accrues enough talent to get a chance in the top flight every now and again. Until we are forced to sell that talent. 
That likely won’t change unless we get wealthy owners in. 
I think we are currently in a state where we once again have opportunity re promotion (as 5th/6th could be well be better locked in for us). Personally I don’t believe we have the manager or ruthlessness of decision re him to capitalise on it. 
But once again, I hope to be proved wrong. 

That seems about right. It is all very well the hierarchy proposing top 17 when we have achieved that only twice in 28 years. Even if we became Brighton mark 2 the novelty would wear off as cup wins etc are very unlikely to happen these days even for Clubs of their stature.

[king canary 7,679]

37 minutes ago, chicken said:

Re Buendia, I would say his defenisve development very much came in his last season with us. He cut a very petulant figure at times in the premier league, often seen slapping the floor after failing to dribble past three players. One of the biggest criticisms of him up to that point was the defensive side of his game. Probably best highlighted with his needless sending off during project restart.

This just isn't the case though.

I'm not a huge fan of defensive counting stats but Buendia made our second most attempted tackles a game and completed the third most tackles a game in the Premier League season. 

This quote comes from an article written in March of 2019, so during his first season with us...

Quote

For all of Buendía’s creative talents, what must not go unnoticed is his defensive contributions. He is crucial to the way that Farke’s team presses and aims to retrieve the ball high up the pitch.

He marks space intelligently and cuts off passing lanes for opposing ball carriers, making it hard for Norwich’s opponents to play out from the back. Buendía reads the game well and makes interceptions in dangerous areas, springing his side into life and enabling them to counter-attack despite the impetus that is placed upon possession.

I'm also not sure how a silly red card in that Premier League season shows the defensive side of his game was lacking? Those two statements are basically unrelated.

[Corbs1 90]

Good original post, been saying that years, but a lack of perspective is part of issue, club overall in very good space, in large part due to current custodians 

[Monty13 2,252]

5 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

So over the last 10 years our average position is roughly 24th

Over the last 20 years our average position is roughly 26th

Over the last 30 years our average position is roughly 27th

C'est la vie say the old folks...

Top 26 team was and is very reasonable ambition. Think any idea we can achieve much higher on average or accomplish the mythical established PL club is a step too far.

Does explain why those of us in our 40s and younger have a reasonable expectation of that top 26 though, yes there’s been ups and downs but that’s what we’ve known.

[Monty13 2,252]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

Mediocrity is all part of the experience of supporting most football clubs except for the ultra elite. Neither good nor bad times last forever.

There is a difference between understanding there will be periods of mediocrity and accepting it when it does.

The cycles of good and bad are the result of decisions and actions.

I don’t think any reasonable person thinks there will only be good, but it’s what’s being done in the bad that comes into focus. 

[S_81 871]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Being devils advocate here - they are  / were (sadly) several EPL managers that for lack of a better word 'specialized' in keeping lower ranked EPL clubs in the division.

I rather suspect you wouldn't like their brand of football!  

Yeah it’s a tough balance to play attractive attacking football and be successful in the top flight. Or even to get promoted at times. And naturally you’re always going to give the manager that got you up the chance at that season. I’m realistic about the scale of the challenge to stay up. That gap often gets bigger every year. And throwing the kitchen sink at it financially can see you still relegated but with far bigger debt. But - there’s definitely occasions when we have had a bit of a financial go (for us, comparatively) and unfortunately the recruitment has been lacking. Or we’ve been too loyal to a manager clearly out of their depth. Those opportunities do feel missed. But - as I say, the gulf to stay there is vast. But I do think we could have, for a season or two. 

[chicken 2,648]

2 hours ago, king canary said:

This just isn't the case though.

I'm not a huge fan of defensive counting stats but Buendia made our second most attempted tackles a game and completed the third most tackles a game in the Premier League season. 

This quote comes from an article written in March of 2019, so during his first season with us...

I'm also not sure how a silly red card in that Premier League season shows the defensive side of his game was lacking? Those two statements are basically unrelated.

As I have said before, stats don't tell the entire picture. Were tackles because, for example, he had tried to dribble past three players and then lost it? Another example was that people used to think Howson was a bit light-weight because of a lack of physical challenges but in fact he red the game well and would steal the ball rather than have to dive in, something that happens most often because a player is going to get away from someone, or has done and it's last ditch.

I didn't say he was crap at it, but IMHO, he was caught up the field a fair bit. Something some commentators often said too. Not an issue if, as some folks on here suggested, he was playing No.10, but he wasn't. And Farke had our full backs pushed up too. Overall, my argument was one that we struggled defensively as a side, with the way we were set up to play. That falls on Farke. We could have played a diamond midfield, in theory, Vrancic would have suited that in the same way Surman did. Buendia in behind Pukki in the Wes role. I mean, we could have tried anything. We didn't really. We stuck to the same approach for a season then went 4-3-3 which surrendered width.

Silly red cards are absolutely part of the defensive mentality in the premier league. The team all know we need 11 players on the pitch. Buendia knew his importance by that point in terms of creative ability in making moves and in having to get into defensive positions. To do what he did in that game... it was foolish and cost us defensively and one of our best players.

You see, the defensive side of the game is more than just "defending" per se. It's about disruption, preventing the opposition finding their stride, putting them off their stride if they do, gamesmanship, mentality... It's all very easy to be confident and stroking the ball around when you are at 0-0 with the lions share of possession and chances, but if you're not, that's when your mentality is tested the most. If you snap, if you lose it, then you can't handle it. In the premier league, you need to be able to handle it.

[king canary 7,679]

37 minutes ago, chicken said:

You see, the defensive side of the game is more than just "defending" per se. It's about disruption, preventing the opposition finding their stride, putting them off their stride if they do, gamesmanship, mentality..

But this is where you don't make any sense- these are all things Buendia was really good at! Consistently! He was very very good at pressing high, chasing players down, disrupting their play etc etc, as highlighted in the quote I provided from the blog about him. This wasn't a weakness on his game it was a major strength. Compared to most other attacking midfielders he's excellent defensively in terms of work rate and willingness to disrupt.

Everything you say about people's misreading of Howson is exactly what you're doing here. You seemed to see some occasionally frustrated body language and decide his defensive contribution was lacking which just wasn't the case.

[chicken 2,648]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

But this is where you don't make any sense- these are all things Buendia was really good at! Consistently! He was very very good at pressing high, chasing players down, disrupting their play etc etc, as highlighted in the quote I provided from the blog about him. This wasn't a weakness on his game it was a major strength. Compared to most other attacking midfielders he's excellent defensively in terms of work rate and willingness to disrupt.

Everything you say about people's misreading of Howson is exactly what you're doing here. You seemed to see some occasionally frustrated body language and decide his defensive contribution was lacking which just wasn't the case.

You've used one blog, and some stats. He was at times, frustrating in the premier league. Yes, he did get back at times, but I disagree with the "blog" that his defensive positioning and work rate, was always on point. At this point I am not slating him, just pointing out that he saw himself as a No.10 and that it wasn't the best part of his game. And that part of the reason we had a soft underbelly was a preference for attacking players and a formation that largely exposed space in our flanks.

It's also not "body language"... which is more subtle. It's his actual disciplinary record and being susceptible to moments of brashness. Sent off four times in three seasons. I am not the only to reflect on that. His work rate certainly improved the longer he was with us. March 2019 is at the end of his first season, he did improve.

Clearly you disagree with an aspect of that, which is fine, but not really relevant. The main point still stands, that as a team, we were not defensively good enough. From the head coach down. We did have defensive injuries to Hanley, Klose, Zimmermann and Byram which hardly helped mind you. 

[king canary 7,679]

21 minutes ago, chicken said:

You've used one blog, and some stats. He was at times, frustrating in the premier league. Yes, he did get back at times, but I disagree with the "blog" that his defensive positioning and work rate, was always on point. At this point I am not slating him, just pointing out that he saw himself as a No.10 and that it wasn't the best part of his game. And that part of the reason we had a soft underbelly was a preference for attacking players and a formation that largely exposed space in our flanks.

It's also not "body language"... which is more subtle. It's his actual disciplinary record and being susceptible to moments of brashness. Sent off four times in three seasons. I am not the only to reflect on that. His work rate certainly improved the longer he was with us. March 2019 is at the end of his first season, he did improve.

Clearly you disagree with an aspect of that, which is fine, but not really relevant. The main point still stands, that as a team, we were not defensively good enough. From the head coach down. We did have defensive injuries to Hanley, Klose, Zimmermann and Byram which hardly helped mind you. 

No doubt the team was poor defensively, I just find Buendia an odd one to highlight. I'd argue our defensive issues would have been even more apparent without him. Do well for example provided much less defensive cover and pressing ability.

Our issues were almost entirely structural - Farke wanted his wide players coming in narrow to create space for overlapping full backs and he was happy to have players breaking from deep, which left us hugely exposed on counters. We improved on this by adding Skipp, who was the best Norwich player I've seen in that role (I loved Tettey but he lacked positional discipline and loved chasing the ball when he shouldn't) and we swapped the exciting but positionally questionable Godfrey for Gibson but that system would have had frailities whatever personnel we put out.

Edited February 21 by king canary

[nutty nigel 7,642]

5 hours ago, It's Character Forming said:

LOL you just made those numbers up, didn't you ?!

Well, that’s how the numbers looked to me. But I weren’t good at anything at school. Especially sums where I was always bottom of the class. I was particularly bad at the times tables and they refused to give me any marks for knowing the tune…

[The Bunny 314]

11 hours ago, lake district canary said:

It was such a strange time. That season was heading towards an interesting conclusion up to lockdown - we were still competitive as demonstrated against Leicester and that could easily have carried through to the end of the season had it not been for lockdown - so at least a fighting end to the season, even if we had still been relegated. 

A good fight to the end of the season would have given a completely different reflection of Farke's ability in the PL too. As it was we got every pundit, newspaper, fans from other clubs - and many of our own fans - stuck with the "he can't get results in the PL", lumping the end of that season with the start of the second PL season, which to me has always been ridiculous, given the unprecedented conditions of those times. Always struck me as such a simplistic way of looking at it - an easy accusation - yes, we had a terrible end to that season, but we were the least resourced club - and people who say that lockdown "was the same for all clubs" are ignoring circumstances.

If we had put in a good fight in an uninterupted season, which I believe we were on the way to doing, followed by that good championship season, the hunting pack of pundits, media and blinkered fans, would not have had the ammunition and temerity to call for Farke's sacking after just a few games into another difficult PL season, again without the extra ability players we needed to do well.

Farke was unlucky and he should not have been sacked on the strength of the so called stats of "hasn't won in the  PL in 21 games", or however many it was. No point in mithering over it now, we are on the up at the moment with Wagner - but watching him do well at Leeds is quite difficult to take, given he was such a good fit for our club.

He was sacked because he managed 6 wins in 49 PL games over his Norwich City Managerial career. And at the point the decision was made, it was 5 in 48. Most managers would have been gone well before that point. 

Don't get me wrong, there were mitigating circumstances, lack of budget, selling our best player etc. But that's still a terrible record at the top level.