Is Attanasio joint ownership official yet?

[Indy 3,426]

It’s been three months since the AGM and a year since his official move in loans and this set up!

Why is it taking so long and is it moving as expected or is there something going on behind the scenes?

Anyone know? Purple, GFM, Essex? Any updates appreciated.

[TheBaldOne66 768]

And Ratcliffes Man United takeover has been approved within less than three months! Something doesn’t seem quite right with the so called Attanasio takeover

[Soldier on 255]

6 minutes ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

And Ratcliffes Man United takeover has been approved within less than three months! Something doesn’t seem quite right with the so called Attanasio takeover

Yep not too sure why journalists aren’t asking more questions tbh. Guess they don’t want to be back on the naughty list ??

[stratton canary 157]

Maybe Delia will come out at half time & tell the 80% 🤣. 

My feeling is the Stow 2 will hang on as long as possible, as said in a earlier post, " No one is asking the question"   Nice little Norwich! 😏 

[Mello Yello 2,500]

[shefcanary 2,854]

No it isn't, I doubt it will be approved before end of season. The EFL has a serious backlog of cases, we are way down the list. What a mess.

[Indy 3,426]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

No it isn't, I doubt it will be approved before end of season. The EFL has a serious backlog of cases, we are way down the list. What a mess.

What happens by some miracle we go up and it hasn’t been approved by the EFL is the premier league ratification any different? Is that process started again?

[PurpleCanary 6,192]

3 hours ago, Indy said:

It’s been three months since the AGM and a year since his official move in loans and this set up!

Why is it taking so long and is it moving as expected or is there something going on behind the scenes?

Anyone know? Purple, GFM, Essex? Any updates appreciated.

No, but I do not believe it matters, in the sense that it appears he is acting as if he was and being regarded inside the club as if he was. Indy, if you came into a distressed company as a white knight (which you may even have done!) but your position hadn't been formally ratified would you sit around doing nothing or would you dive straight in and put the company to rights?!

[shefcanary 2,854]

5 minutes ago, Indy said:

What happens by some miracle we go up and it hasn’t been approved by the EFL is the premier league ratification any different? Is that process started again?

That is something to ponder. I suspect as ultimately both league's are doing the check under the auspices of the FA, the EPL would ensure the process was complete and pick up the bill. The EFL may be playing a smart move, if there was a real chance of Norwich going up mind! 

[littleyellowbirdie 3,045]

2 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

No, but I do not believe it matters, in the sense that it appears he is acting as if he was and being regarded inside the club as if he was. Indy, if you came into a distressed company as a white knight (which you may even have done!) but your position hadn't been formally ratified would you sit around doing nothing or would you dive straight in and put the company to rights?!

The interview Attanassio, Smith, and Wynn-Jones did some months back gave the strong air of Attannassio already being very much in the driving seat in practise.

[Indy 3,426]

5 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

No, but I do not believe it matters, in the sense that it appears he is acting as if he was and being regarded inside the club as if he was. Indy, if you came into a distressed company as a white knight (which you may even have done!) but your position hadn't been formally ratified would you sit around doing nothing or would you dive straight in and put the company to rights?!

Good question, I have in some capacity been involved in such a scenario, we actually formed a new company and this allowed us to incorporate the best of the staff!

I certainly wouldn’t buy into it with joint ownership, regardless of the conditions! If I was to invest 10 times the amount the other equal party had in 28 years I’d want more that equal shares.

[Fen Canary 1,357]

6 minutes ago, Indy said:

Good question, I have in some capacity been involved in such a scenario, we actually formed a new company and this allowed us to incorporate the best of the staff!

I certainly wouldn’t buy into it with joint ownership, regardless of the conditions! If I was to invest 10 times the amount the other equal party had in 28 years I’d want more that equal shares.

Even if that company was worth 10x more today than it was when the others bought it?

[Indy 3,426]

7 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Even if that company was worth 10x more today than it was when the others bought it?

It’s not as the debt is the value of the club!

[shefcanary 2,854]

9 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Even if that company was worth 10x more today than it was when the others bought it?

The club is only worth the same as when Smith & Jones took control based on the recent share sales. 20 years and no increase in share value. Its a rummun.

[PurpleCanary 6,192]

1 hour ago, Indy said:

Good question, I have in some capacity been involved in such a scenario, we actually formed a new company and this allowed us to incorporate the best of the staff!

I certainly wouldn’t buy into it with joint ownership, regardless of the conditions! If I was to invest 10 times the amount the other equal party had in 28 years I’d want more that equal shares.

That is fine, Indy, but I notice you haven’t actually answered my question, which was would you just sit around  until formally ratified or would you get straight to work irrespective of a lack of formal status? It is in reality a pretty academic question since we both know the answer!

[MrBunce 276]

Leaving aside that it's Norwich and Attanasio, it's remarkable that an individual who has not passed the EFL's Owners and Directors test can reportedly (via his apparent involvement in football affairs) and actually (via his financing of the club) have such significant influence on a football club. I absolutely don't think that Attanasio is a wrong'un, but it's concerning that there could be a football club out there who could get unlucky with an unscrupulous owner and 'fall through the cracks' like Norwich seemingly are at the moment. 

P.S. I'm still of the view that Attanasio should have been required to pass the Owners and Directors Test (not just the Directors Test) in September 2022 when the Shareholders' Agreement was entered into. 

[Indy 3,426]

8 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

That is fine, Indy, but I notice you haven’t actually answered my question, which was would you just sit around  until formally ratified or would you get straight to work irrespective of a lack of formal status? It is in reality a pretty academic question since we both know the answer!

I have I wouldn’t have invested in this scenario full stop without actually taking majority share ownership and moving the full legal control to me! This joint ownership is questionable as it technically doesn’t allow you to drive your new business. That’s my view and how it legally stands, regardless of comments in the AGM or what a few fans perceive.

But I’m still unsure why if it’s so clear cut it’s taking so long to be formally pushed through! It’s strange to me that it’s taking so long.

I hope it gets sorted before June, I hope we have a clear leader at the top who comes out and is going to work alongside Knapper and I really hope they sort out the manager too, if Wagner is staying that needs to be clear in May or change it before the end of the season to allow the new manager to review the squad before the summer.

The crowd yesterday were flat, reacted negatively and from what I saw it wasn’t 20% either it’s more in the 50%. We need to sort this all out it’s been too long! Just my view.

[Indy 3,426]

10 hours ago, shefcanary said:

The club is only worth the same as when Smith & Jones took control based on the recent share sales. 20 years and no increase in share value. Its a rummun.

Share value is set by the club owner, the purchase price agreed by parties in that process, the value of the club is always based on assets, playing staff potential values, incoming revenue streams and debts!

[Soldier on 255]

1 hour ago, Indy said:

I have I wouldn’t have invested in this scenario full stop without actually taking majority share ownership and moving the full legal control to me! This joint ownership is questionable as it technically doesn’t allow you to drive your new business. That’s my view and how it legally stands, regardless of comments in the AGM or what a few fans perceive.

But I’m still unsure why if it’s so clear cut it’s taking so long to be formally pushed through! It’s strange to me that it’s taking so long.

I hope it gets sorted before June, I hope we have a clear leader at the top who comes out and is going to work alongside Knapper and I really hope they sort out the manager too, if Wagner is staying that needs to be clear in May or change it before the end of the season to allow the new manager to review the squad before the summer.

The crowd yesterday were flat, reacted negatively and from what I saw it wasn’t 20% either it’s more in the 50%. We need to sort this all out it’s been too long! Just my view.

I agree backlog or not surely there comes a time when you have to push for things to be hurried along. We need to go into the summer window with some clarity on where the club is heading on and off the pitch.

[Fromage Frais 14]

6 hours ago, Indy said:

I have I wouldn’t have invested in this scenario full stop without actually taking majority share ownership and moving the full legal control to me! This joint ownership is questionable as it technically doesn’t allow you to drive your new business. That’s my view and how it legally stands, regardless of comments in the AGM or what a few fans perceive.

But I’m still unsure why if it’s so clear cut it’s taking so long to be formally pushed through! It’s strange to me that it’s taking so long.

I hope it gets sorted before June, I hope we have a clear leader at the top who comes out and is going to work alongside Knapper and I really hope they sort out the manager too, if Wagner is staying that needs to be clear in May or change it before the end of the season to allow the new manager to review the squad before the summer.

The crowd yesterday were flat, reacted negatively and from what I saw it wasn’t 20% either it’s more in the 50%. We need to sort this all out it’s been too long! Just my view.

Maybe there is a performance element to it dragging on.

Improbably getting promoted results in a world of difference in value. 

I am like you no way would I invest in something without the ability to change things.  I am surprised they can do a deal with the current owners as doing well enough to stay/not doing bad enough to leave is not the recipe for a bargain per se.  Why would you spend ages on Norwich when other teams go kaput and you can have total control, a bargain and delighted fans having been saved.

 

[GMF 924]

16 hours ago, MrBunce said:

Leaving aside that it's Norwich and Attanasio, it's remarkable that an individual who has not passed the EFL's Owners and Directors test can reportedly (via his apparent involvement in football affairs) and actually (via his financing of the club) have such significant influence on a football club. I absolutely don't think that Attanasio is a wrong'un, but it's concerning that there could be a football club out there who could get unlucky with an unscrupulous owner and 'fall through the cracks' like Norwich seemingly are at the moment. 

P.S. I'm still of the view that Attanasio should have been required to pass the Owners and Directors Test (not just the Directors Test) in September 2022 when the Shareholders' Agreement was entered into. 

Maybe it wasn’t a requirement in September 2022, but, by December 2022 / January 2023, the Club had entered into various loan agreements, as detailed in the Term Sheet, dated 19 January 2023.

The EFL website outlines the requirements on clubs to submit certain financial records at certain points of the year, including future financial information (FFI) in relation to the PSR (profitability and sustainability rules).

At this stage MA would have had 21% of the share capital, so below the EFL ownership threshold of 25%, but the FFI obligation still applies to the Club.

I’m not suggesting for one moment that there’s a PSR issue here, but it seems somewhat odd that information that should have been given previously remains outstanding now. 

[Soldier on 255]

3 hours ago, GMF said:

Maybe it wasn’t a requirement in September 2022, but, by December 2022 / January 2023, the Club had entered into various loan agreements, as detailed in the Term Sheet, dated 19 January 2023.

The EFL website outlines the requirements on clubs to submit certain financial records at certain points of the year, including future financial information (FFI) in relation to the PSR (profitability and sustainability rules).

At this stage MA would have had 21% of the share capital, so below the EFL ownership threshold of 25%, but the FFI obligation still applies to the Club.

I’m not suggesting for one moment that there’s a PSR issue here, but it seems somewhat odd that information that should have been given previously remains outstanding now. 

Any idea why it would remain outstanding. Still in the hands of lawyers ?

[essex canary 587]

This issue could be a political minefield.

Rugby Union has lost 3 clubs recently. Very informative is the case of Worcester Warriors with debts of £30 million or so accompanied by this verdict from DCMS "Unscrupulous owners mis-managed club finances while attempting to strip the club of it's assets' and accused the RFU of 'watching on with bovine inertia'.(Delayed Gratification issue 51 tells the story)

Interesting to reflect therefore as to how DCMS will view our White Knight situation? The EFL maybe feeling very sensitive in the circumstances.

The PL/EFL battle over parachute payments as detailed in the editorial of the current edition of WSC is also a factor. It maybe further complicated by NCFC's current membership of the EFL whilst appearing to support the PL position.

 

[MrBunce 276]

6 hours ago, GMF said:

Maybe it wasn’t a requirement in September 2022, but, by December 2022 / January 2023, the Club had entered into various loan agreements, as detailed in the Term Sheet, dated 19 January 2023.

The EFL website outlines the requirements on clubs to submit certain financial records at certain points of the year, including future financial information (FFI) in relation to the PSR (profitability and sustainability rules).

At this stage MA would have had 21% of the share capital, so below the EFL ownership threshold of 25%, but the FFI obligation still applies to the Club.

I’m not suggesting for one moment that there’s a PSR issue here, but it seems somewhat odd that information that should have been given previously remains outstanding now. 

My view regarding EFL approval is from reading the regulations. Helpfully, the EFL provide a Q&A on the Owners and Directors Test. On control they write:

"The Regulations also allow the League to consider shareholders holding less than 25% if they are acting “in concert” with others and together they go over 25%, and the definition of ‘control’ also applies to persons who have been given the authority to give directions or instructions which the Club’s management are accustomed to act in accordance with."

Leaving that aside, I completely agree with you that it is odd regarding the FFI which is an obligation. Perhaps 1+1=2 didn't twig for the EFL or the Club didn't fully meet it's requirements. I don't know. However, I feel safe in saying that something doesn't seem right. 

Taking a hypothetical and say it turned out Mr Attanasio is a loan shark (he's a distressed debt investor after all!). Joking aside, Norwich miss their budget end of last season, they default on the loans to Mr Attanasio. An inability to refinance could lead him to putting the club into administration. 

I do not think for one moment that ever would or will happen. Maybe you think I'm crazy. However, it happened to Wigan - their new owner put the club into administration the day he took control of the club.

That this saga is still rumbling on, with no resolution from the EFL in sight, seems like a loophole that could allow unscrupulous owners to cause severe damage to a football club. 

(I've now removed my tin foil hat) 

[GMF 924]

13 hours ago, Soldier on said:

Any idea why it would remain outstanding. Still in the hands of lawyers ?

My understanding is that the matter is still with the EFL for approval. It’s probably nothing more than a resourcing issue at the League, although a cynic might say that they have bigger priorities at moment, sorting out Reading and a new funding deal from the Premier League being two examples.

[GMF 924]

@MrBunce the interest play is almost certainly part of his return calculation, something that’s easily overlooked when considering his investment.

Personally, I remain sceptical that’s his likely direction of travel, especially as @Parma Ham's gone mouldy has repeatedly lectured us all about the potential inherent unrealised equity gain. The long term upside seems far greater than any shorter term play.

[Capt. Pants 4,777]

So the longer this takes the more interest Attanasio earns? The more the debt increases?

It's pretty rubbish on all fronts.

[shefcanary 2,854]

2 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

So the longer this takes the more interest Attanasio earns? The more the debt increases?

I assume the EFL prioritisation recognises this issue when deciding where to invest its scant investigating resource. However the interest element is probably less than our highest paid players annual salary so from the EFL perspective is manageable for now. 

The only thing probably softening the issue of the delay for Attanasio is the concordat between the majority shareholders. Oh and the fact Wagner is a "lucky" manager and there hasn't been a major "club crisis" for a while.

But surely he must be shaking his head on a regular basis, saying remind me not to do business in England again!

[Leedscanary 384]

West Brom takeover announced this morning. 
By an American. 
 

And approved by the EFL…

[Bristol Canary 94]

I do find it slightly mad that because we're not a (complete) basket case we're effectively being punished by our case being lower priority than less fortunate clubs. Surely it should just be a whoever is in the line first?