Sold talent

[BigFish 1,988]

2 hours ago, Ulfotto said:

Really? The guy is 19 he has Cole Palmer ahead of him and Chelsea have spent a billion pounds on transfers in the last two season and will continue to spend without a thought for developing players. What Matos has signed up for is being loaned out for the next 2-3 seasons before being sold at an inflated price to Crystal Palace to fulfill Chelsea financial fair play requirements and that is the best case. You can call it ambition but it is really about money.  If he is as good as obviously thinks he is he could have committed to Norwich last season instead of trialling at premier league teams and would have been a semi regular first team player this season getting the minutes this season that have gone to Springett, Placheta and Hernandez.

Chelsea's record of developing top level Pros far exceeds ours, what you describe is true but if he stays he is on a pathway to the Champs, but if he goes he is on a pathway to the Champions League. If sold to Palace that sadly is still a step up to playing at CR.

[JonnyJonnyRowe 446]

On 30/12/2023 at 10:39, Yellowhammer said:

I always thought Sean raggett should have been given a chance 

But since leaving he's on his 5th consecutive season in League One, and in that time we've had two seasons in the top tier, so he's not exactly proven you right has he? 

I always rated Carlton Morris though and we've seen much poorer strikers in our team since letting him go, Hugill, Srbeny, and Barnes for a start (Barnes as he is now, not Barnes as he was four years ago).

[JonnyJonnyRowe 446]

On 30/12/2023 at 10:44, ged in the onion bag said:

Harry Toffolo

The club could never admit this of course, but do have to wonder, in hindsight, whether we knew about his gambling problem and in particular his fondness of betting on football matches - his offences were committed between January 2014 and March 2017 and we ditched him in January 2018.

[Harry53 209]

On 30/12/2023 at 10:39, Yellowhammer said:

Matos, Morris , mumba 3 players we should have kept and give game time to ,instead of these older players , what other players should not have been sold ? I always thought Sean raggett should have been given a chance 

Sam Byram too. Was injury prone but not now. 

Todd too. Attitude but a very creative and skilful player given away. Add to that Kieran Dowell. Better than anything we have brought in. 

[JonnyJonnyRowe 446]

23 hours ago, king canary said:

Ah the great Carlton Morris delusion continues. He was an injury prone 25 year old who'd never managed double figures even in League One, while we were sitting top of the championship table. 

That's because he's typically the hold up player, drops deep, drifts out wide and holds up the ball, plays the ball off to wide players, draws fouls, flicks headers from the front post to the back post, an Emile Heskey.

For a better reflection also consider his assist stats. Josh Sargent 2 assists for us last season, Carlton Morris had 6 for Barnsley, 5 for Rotherham, 5 for Shrewsbury, 7 last season for Luton etc. He's a focal point and an outlet and somebody who can keep the ball in the final third, rather than somebody who stands around in the 6 yard box waiting for somebody to plonk the ball on his head. You'd find that Sara (when playing advanced) Sainz, and Rowe would absolutely love playing alongside a Carlton Morris.

Allow me to introduce you to Kevin Davies. Now if you considered how many assists he got, particularly at Bolton where the Kevin Davies knock down to Kevin Nolan was a speciality, it would tell a different story. But also at Preston where his 4 goals were matched two to one with 8 assists. Premier League website says that Kevin Davies scored 88 Premier League goals, but also chipped in with 55 assists. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by JonnyJonnyRowe

[JonnyJonnyRowe 446]

On 30/12/2023 at 10:39, Yellowhammer said:

Matos, Morris , mumba 3 players we should have kept and give game time to ,instead of these older players , what other players should not have been sold ? I always thought Sean raggett should have been given a chance 

Has anybody mentioned Sergi Canos yet? Now at Valencia.

[Harry53 209]

23 hours ago, norfolkngood said:

i do wonder if someone like Matos would have walked out if he was in first team ?

i never saw him play but he is on the bench for a big PL team ,

so he must be good enough for our 1st 11 ,

was it a case of you are signing older players like Batth so i will not get a chance i am off ? 

was it chelsea offered more money ? in that case why didn't we as in i would rather have Matos who could earn us millions on good money than a 30 + year old ,

Same with Sara and Rowe i would rather not have a Barnes and give his salary to Rowe and Sara in extended deals 

Sara and Rowe are our best players who perform Barnes does not 

Sara and Rowe have resale values Barnes does not 

Matos must have been good enough for our team 

 

 

I see teams bringing on 17 yo lads who are ready,  but we don't seem to either have any in our Academy, or we don't take a risk. Instead we sign old slow discarded players and on insane long contracts. Mr Webber, take a bow

[TheBaldOne66 690]

12 hours ago, Ulfotto said:

Gotta to love someone who leaves Norwich for Chelsea in the search of more first team minutes. A club who literally have no track record of developing young players. 

But he has had minutes in the Chelsea first team this year! 

[Ulfotto 635]

28 minutes ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

But he has had minutes in the Chelsea first team this year! 

4 minutes across 2 substitute appearances to be precise. If he would have stayed here he would have conservatively had all of Springett and Placheta minutes which would be about 7 appearances and the same again in substitute appearances. 

I dunno get why Matos the individual has made the move but to me it sums up everything wrong with football today. Chelsea are hoovering up other teams best talent simple to sell back to them to cover there financial fair play requirements for there actual first team. Before someone says Luton accordingly to Wikipedia he left Luton for Norwich aged 11.
 

This message board hammers the club for nearly everything it does of the things we are doing wrong I don’t think getting young players into the first team is one of one them.

[Nuff Said 5,145]

2 hours ago, Harry53 said:

Sam Byram too. Was injury prone but not now. 

Todd too. Attitude but a very creative and skilful player given away. Add to that Kieran Dowell. Better than anything we have brought in. 

Have I misread that, or are you claiming that Kieran Dowell is a better player than Sara and Sainz? Even better than Nunez is a stretch.

Dowell had ok moments, but also long, long periods of meh, which is why he would get picked for the first team for a few games and then get dropped. Or injured. Again.

[cornish sam 954]

3 hours ago, BigFish said:

Chelsea's record of developing top level Pros far exceeds ours, what you describe is true but if he stays he is on a pathway to the Champs, but if he goes he is on a pathway to the Champions League. If sold to Palace that sadly is still a step up to playing at CR.

Whilst they may have produced more top level pros, how many minutes have they actually had on the pitch for Chelsea first team? It seems like the bulk of the former Chelsea pros are farmed out until they get sold and then have a good career, but a far greater number don't... I would be willing to wager that over he last 5 years we have given more competitive minutes to our young prospects than Chelsea have.

[BigFish 1,988]

35 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

Whilst they may have produced more top level pros, how many minutes have they actually had on the pitch for Chelsea first team? It seems like the bulk of the former Chelsea pros are farmed out until they get sold and then have a good career, but a far greater number don't... I would be willing to wager that over he last 5 years we have given more competitive minutes to our young prospects than Chelsea have.

True, but irrelevent. It is clear if you want to be a top level pro the chances are better and more lucrative at Chelsea than Norwich. Whether you do it Stamford Bridge or win the Champions League with Man City.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

15 hours ago, NewNestCarrow said:

The recent article on Matos in The Athletic is interesting. 

Matos was going on trial to PL clubs in March. Does that strike you as someone who was committed to NCFC? 

Matos was a boyhood Chelsea fan. Again, that was always likely to sway his decision-making.

He was not exactly tearing it up for us last season [just 7 starts for the U23s, zero gls & two assists], and beyond U15 level he had been ignored by the England set-up.

He's made a couple of appearances for a Chelsea side decimated by injury & struggling in mid-table, so he's not exactly Frank Lampard!

No one is claiming he’s frank lampard. Just saying I heard he left because he felt he deserved an opportunity in the first team. 

[BigFish 1,988]

2 hours ago, Ulfotto said:

I dunno get why Matos the individual has made the move but to me it sums up everything wrong with football today. Chelsea are hoovering up other teams best talent simple to sell back to them to cover there financial fair play requirements for there actual first team. Before someone says Luton accordingly to Wikipedia he left Luton for Norwich aged 11.
 

This message board hammers the club for nearly everything it does of the things we are doing wrong I don’t think getting young players into the first team is one of one them.

Much to agree with here, that is the shape of the modern game. We can't change it, we can only go with it and accept that we will lose our best young players  to the likes of Chelsea leaving us with the talent they don't want.

[BigFish 1,988]

3 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

No one is claiming he’s frank lampard. Just saying I heard he left because he felt he deserved an opportunity in the first team. 

That isn't why he left though, that is just the stick to beat the club with. He left because being a young player with Chelsea is better than being a young player at Norwich.

[king canary 7,609]

3 hours ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

That's because he's typically the hold up player, drops deep, drifts out wide and holds up the ball, plays the ball off to wide players, draws fouls, flicks headers from the front post to the back post, an Emile Heskey.

For a better reflection also consider his assist stats. Josh Sargent 2 assists for us last season, Carlton Morris had 6 for Barnsley, 5 for Rotherham, 5 for Shrewsbury, 7 last season for Luton etc. He's a focal point and an outlet and somebody who can keep the ball in the final third, rather than somebody who stands around in the 6 yard box waiting for somebody to plonk the ball on his head. You'd find that Sara (when playing advanced) Sainz, and Rowe would absolutely love playing alongside a Carlton Morris.

Allow me to introduce you to Kevin Davies. Now if you considered how many assists he got, particularly at Bolton where the Kevin Davies knock down to Kevin Nolan was a speciality, it would tell a different story. But also at Preston where his 4 goals were matched two to one with 8 assists. Premier League website says that Kevin Davies scored 88 Premier League goals, but also chipped in with 55 assists. 

That's fair but also the absolute opposite of what we asked strikers to do under Farke. 

I just find the idea that Morris was hard done by to not get more minutes not very persuasive. Not to say he isn't good but he isn't what we needed and likely needed the move to get the success he's had since.

[king canary 7,609]

2 hours ago, Ulfotto said:

This message board hammers the club for nearly everything it does of the things we are doing wrong I don’t think getting young players into the first team is one of one them.

Yeah exactly. It was an issue pre Webber but it's one of his biggest successes since he arrived.

Of the top of my head since he joined we've given significant minutes to...

Lewis

Aaron's

Godfrey

Cantwell

Omobamidele

Rowe

Idah

Gibbs

Along with some minutes for Warner, Tomkinson, Springett, Fisher and others.

That's a fantastic production line.

 

[hogesar 9,676]

2 hours ago, Ulfotto said:

4 minutes across 2 substitute appearances to be precise. If he would have stayed here he would have conservatively had all of Springett and Placheta minutes which would be about 7 appearances and the same again in substitute appearances. 

I dunno get why Matos the individual has made the move but to me it sums up everything wrong with football today. Chelsea are hoovering up other teams best talent simple to sell back to them to cover there financial fair play requirements for there actual first team. Before someone says Luton accordingly to Wikipedia he left Luton for Norwich aged 11.
 

This message board hammers the club for nearly everything it does of the things we are doing wrong I don’t think getting young players into the first team is one of one them.

Welcome to the PinkUn.

[Branston Pickle 3,661]

1 hour ago, Nuff Said said:

Have I misread that, or are you claiming that Kieran Dowell is a better player than Sara and Sainz? Even better than Nunez is a stretch.

Dowell had ok moments, but also long, long periods of meh, which is why he would get picked for the first team for a few games and then get dropped. Or injured. Again.

Quite. He was out injured more than he was available. As he has been at Rangers.

This is v much the ‘hindsight thread’.  Decisions made on players are done at that point in time and usually make reasonable sense for where we are.  Of course there will be others where we’re left head-scratching as supporters but we don’t know what’s gone on behind the scenes.  Not all players will love the club/area, for example.

If a player comes good a few seasons later that doesn’t necessarily make the decision ‘wrong’ -  but there will always be players who come back and bite you on the bum.  That’s just the way it is.  Football isn’t an exact science.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Branston Pickle

[JonnyJonnyRowe 446]

1 minute ago, Branston Pickle said:

Quite. He was out injured more than he was available. And has been at Rangers.

This is v much the ‘hindsight thread’.  Decisions made on players are done at that point in time and usually make reasonable sense for where we are.  Of course there will be others where we’re left head-scratching.  If a player comes good a few seasons later that doesn’t necessarily make the decision ‘wrong’ -  but there will always be players who come back and bite you on the bum.

There is also no evidence that we didn't offer Dowell a contract, we may well have tried to keep him.

[Nora's Ghost 157]

16 hours ago, Ulfotto said:

I think the difference between Delia and Chase is that Delia is honest about how the club is run. The goal is to break even. Robert Chase said Sutton wouldn’t be sold he was. He told Martin O’Neill there was money to spend there wasn’t. 

You overlook the great years Chase gave the supporters and the many other players he saw at the club besides Sutton and 'want away' big time Charlie O'Neill. Sutton would have left anyway in due course as he was too good to stay much longer.

 

Delia hasn't been honest about very much from the original 'I saved the club' nonsense her spin machine pumped out. I surprised you have understood that yet.

[cornish sam 954]

1 hour ago, BigFish said:

True, but irrelevent. It is clear if you want to be a top level pro the chances are better and more lucrative at Chelsea than Norwich. Whether you do it Stamford Bridge or win the Champions League with Man City.

Whilst I do agree, the point that was being challenged was about him not getting enough first team minutes and the chances of that being even slimmer at Chelsea... From a career perspective there is almost no doubt that he is better off at Chelsea than with us (unfortunately), even if he is only there a few years he could earn enough to last him a lifetime (if he properly handles it)

[BigFish 1,988]

38 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

Whilst I do agree, the point that was being challenged was about him not getting enough first team minutes and the chances of that being even slimmer at Chelsea... From a career perspective there is almost no doubt that he is better off at Chelsea than with us (unfortunately), even if he is only there a few years he could earn enough to last him a lifetime (if he properly handles it)

.....and on that we agree entirely 😀

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

I see Matos is going to Huddersfield on loan. Really wonder what could have been with him.

[Ulfotto 635]

3 hours ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

I see Matos is going to Huddersfield on loan. Really wonder what could have been with him.

A strange tale gets even stranger. Why not just stay at Norwich and play first team football with the club who has developed you since the age of 11.

[Monty13 2,235]

On 30/12/2023 at 12:05, norfolkngood said:

that's fair enough ,

one thing we need to break though is if we do get a very good youth player he we need to pay him more ,

i get this wages thing but someone like Rowe and Sara  should be our highest paid because he performs ,

at the moment we waste far to much of the likes of Gibson , Barnes ,Argos , PP , Bartth , Forshaw  etc 

 

Yes I hate this argument, players that offer more are worth more, that’s simply the case across even the biggest teams.

If a 17/18 year old is playing regularly for the 1st team he’s going to get more money than any one playing Under 18s who hasn’t broken through. That shouldn’t be a surprise, it should be encouragement.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,051]

On 30/12/2023 at 12:49, TheBaldOne66 said:

Matos left because he didn’t get a chance in the first team apparently. I’m sure he’d have been better than the dross on show currently!

I know for a fact that this is not true. He left because Chelsea offered him much more money. It really was that simple.

[Ulfotto 635]

I see the Huddersfield move is confirmed.