Live ratings from the Den

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

It was certainly an exciting second half, full of spice and drama. But man are we average to poor! Tactically we sit back and pass so very slowly across the defence that the opposition could go home, have a bath and a cup of tea and then come back and set themselves up defensively. When we do break the players look bewildered as to what to do and- as our wingers cannot cross - nothing much happens. 
 

Gunn- 8 - solid 

Stacey- 4- he is looking worse by the week 

Gibson- 5 - at fault for goal but left exposed by McAllum who goes awol 

baath- 7- did nothing wrong. 

maccalum - 4 goes missing when it matters 

kenny - 6 - put in a shift nothing more 

Sara- 7- talent is  wasted where he is being played but that’s the managers fault 

Fassnacht- 3- has there been a more average anonymous player? 

onel- 1 - for passion. He can’t cross and he can’t shoot. Why does he keep being picked? 

barnes- 10 for entertainment - 2 for football. How he wasn’t sent off is beyond me. 

Hwang - 5- was anonymous once more 

subs: sarg 6, idah 5, placheta 4, Nunez 7, Rowe 8 

referee 2 - lost control of the game - missed one penalty and a foul on Sara outside the box 

Wagner - 2 - can’t manage a game. Can’t set a team up very well- stubbornly sticks to rubbish tactics - he needs to go 

[Hairy Canary 704]

I love Sara but he was poor tonight. So many miss placed passes, caught in possession and nothing creative of any note.

Just a one off hopefully 

[canarybubbles 1,915]

Agree with most of that, except for Sara, who I thought had the worse game I've seen him play for us. I'm not slagging him off - he has been so good that we can't complain about an off-day.

 

[NFN FC 1,123]

I agree with all except placeta, he gets a 1 from me. Squandered possession every single time he got the ball.

[Capt. Pants 4,236]

6 at most for Sara. Same for Batth.

4 for Hwang who was largely hopeless.

[Monty13 2,234]

7 minutes ago, Hairy Canary said:

I love Sara but he was poor tonight. So many miss placed passes, caught in possession and nothing creative of any note.

Just a one off hopefully 

Russell was really down on him on the commentary and you can understand why as he was just using tonight as his reference point, he was really poor with the ball.

[hogesar 9,676]

11 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

Agree with most of that, except for Sara, who I thought had the worse game I've seen him play for us. I'm not slagging him off - he has been so good that we can't complain about an off-day.

 

Yep. Sara has way more quality on the ball than McLean yet it was left to McLean to try and play intricate forward passes because Sara was far too safe. I also don't think he was up for the physical battle with Millwall.

[canarybubbles 1,915]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yep. Sara has way more quality on the ball than McLean yet it was left to McLean to try and play intricate forward passes because Sara was far too safe. I also don't think he was up for the physical battle with Millwall.

From what we've seen recently, I think he works better with Nunez than with McLean.

I am not one of the people who slags off McLean. He has been a great servant for the club and he will always do his best to follow whatever instructions he is given. As it seems you also feel, I just think Sara should be the main man doing the creative stuff because he is technically far superior.

I'm not sure I agree with your last sentence. He's coped OK with physical battles before, and the game wasn't really that physical until Barnes decided to turn it into a war.

[hogesar 9,676]

13 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

From what we've seen recently, I think he works better with Nunez than with McLean.

I am not one of the people who slags off McLean. He has been a great servant for the club and he will always do his best to follow whatever instructions he is given. As it seems you also feel, I just think Sara should be the main man doing the creative stuff because he is technically far superior.

I'm not sure I agree with your last sentence. He's coped OK with physical battles before, and the game wasn't really that physical until Barnes decided to turn it into a war.

Nah. They were pulling at everyone from about 10 minutes in and Sara is one of the biggest culprits for backing out of 50/50s. From a pure strength point of view he's normally OK.

[canarybubbles 1,915]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Nah. They were pulling at everyone from about 10 minutes in and Sara is one of the biggest culprits for backing out of 50/50s. From a pure strength point of view he's normally OK.

Pulling. So you don't rise to the bait, you outplay them. But that braindead thug, Barnes, decided to turn it into a war. At Millwall, FFS! Just want they want.

I really hope that when the inevitable finally happens and we sack Wagner, we get a manager who has no place for a fu*king moron like Barnes. He's not Grant Holt. He hasn't got the brains.

That powder-puff shot in the first minute that should have been a goal. Not so manly there, were you, Barnes? Ug ug! Perhaps you should spend a bit more time trying to be a footballer rather than a bouncer at a nightclub.

 

[shefcanary 2,409]

Sara was constrained playing alongside Kenny. As soon as Kenny went to LCB and Nunez was alongside him, Sara seemed a different player. But too late by then as Millwall just closed the game out. 

Sara was ****ed tonight by Wagner's stupid team selection. Wagner has to go.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

3 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Sara was constrained playing alongside Kenny. As soon as Kenny went to LCB and Nunez was alongside him, Sara seemed a different player. But too late by then as Millwall just closed the game out. 

Sara was ****ed tonight by Wagner's stupid team selection. Wagner has to go.

That was my point when I graded. He was stupidly moved to play the Nunez role and we know it doesn’t work- wasted there. Manager does love playing people out of position for no obvious reason though. He has to go- I’m firmly Wagner out camp

[hogesar 9,676]

4 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Sara was constrained playing alongside Kenny. As soon as Kenny went to LCB and Nunez was alongside him, Sara seemed a different player. But too late by then as Millwall just closed the game out. 

Sara was ****ed tonight by Wagner's stupid team selection. Wagner has to go.

No, as much as you want to make it about Kenny it wasn't. Sara was moved into basically the 10 position later on in the game as the heatmap shows and was no more effective. He rarely passed forward, he apologised to be fair to him, several times, for being massively out of position which Kenny pointed out to him. 

There is no excuse for Sara passing sideways at every opportunity.

It doesn't surprise me that yet another ex-pro in Darrel Russel thought Sara was very poor but Kenny at least tried to force something to happen. Sara was happy to pass it backward and sidewards 700 times if given the opportunity. He was even told to turn by coaches and still faced with his back to goal and played it back unnecessarily

[mastoola 183]

1 hour ago, Hairy Canary said:

I love Sara but he was poor tonight. So many miss placed passes, caught in possession and nothing creative of any note.

Just a one off hopefully 

sara was everywhere!!!!!     but he had no one with him

[canarybubbles 1,915]

I'd like to say in Hwang's defence that, yes, he lost the ball in their penalty area, which led to their goal. But he was surrounded by three of their players. Where were our players helping him out?

[canarybubbles 1,915]

7 hours ago, hogesar said:

Nah. They were pulling at everyone from about 10 minutes in and Sara is one of the biggest culprits for backing out of 50/50s. From a pure strength point of view he's normally OK.

You're getting dangerously close to accusing Sara of cowardice. 

What's your view on the idea that what we need is more muscle and aggression and sh/ithousery? I notice that you haven't criticised Barnes for his total lack of discipline which should have led to a red card and us being down to ten men again.

We brought in these old experienced pros to make us tougher mentally but, if anything, judging by the way we have folded in games this season, our underbelly is softer than ever. Could it be that technical ability is a better way of toughening up than mindless loutishness? 

We used to outplay teams like Millwall. Now we try to out-thug them. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by canarybubbles

[Peregrine Shorts 315]

too many square pegs in round holes.

 

players playing out of position asked to do jobs they are unfamiliar with or just cant do

[Midlands Yellow 3,986]

We’re a grim watch these days. Southampton should get a conservative 3 goal win on Monday. 

[city4eva 211]

47 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

We’re a grim watch these days. Southampton should get a conservative 3 goal win on Monday. 

On the plus side it means they could go level with Ipswich

[canarybubbles 1,915]

7 minutes ago, city4eva said:

On the plus side it means they could go level with Ipswich

That's what this season has been reduced to, isn't it? Hoping to watch Ipswich fail.

[unique 435]

I would think Sara has lost the will to play football.

Imagine what he would be like  if he was supported by proper footballers, instead of the dross that currently surrounds him.

[city4eva 211]

28 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

That's what this season has been reduced to, isn't it? Hoping to watch Ipswich fail.

Fraid so.  While Delia has the reigns nothing will change , if only the 80% could see that

[hogesar 9,676]

3 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

You're getting dangerously close to accusing Sara of cowardice. 

What's your view on the idea that what we need is more muscle and aggression and sh/ithousery? I notice that you haven't criticised Barnes for his total lack of discipline which should have led to a red card and us being down to ten men again.

We brought in these old experienced pros to make us tougher mentally but, if anything, judging by the way we have folded in games this season, our underbelly is softer than ever. Could it be that technical ability is a better way of toughening up than mindless loutishness? 

We used to outplay teams like Millwall. Now we try to out-thug them. 

I dont think there's any misunderstanding between fans that Barnes was useless yesterday, Stacey fouled more than he passed, Kenny gave the ball away and Plachetas second touch is always trying to win the ball back because his first tends to lose it.

So I don't see much value in talking about it. But I do see value in talking about Sara because I think he gets away with stuff no other player would which is fine when he's delivering in an attacking sense but he hasn't done recently.

A poster even blamed Kenny for Sara being poor. It would make sense but even the players on the pitch and Sara himself knew it was his own fault as did the ex-pro on co-comms. 

Sara has always backed out of 50/50s so I can live with that. I can live with him being caught out of position regularly. I can live with him apologising to Kenny for not making any movements off the ball at times. So long as he's doing the stuff he is good at well, because he's very good at it.

Yesterday he didn't. He was painfully safe on the ball and made it so, so easy for Millwall. I don't think the wide players helped with their movement etc but still.

[rock bus 852]

15 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I dont think there's any misunderstanding between fans that Barnes was useless yesterday, Stacey fouled more than he passed, Kenny gave the ball away and Plachetas second touch is always trying to win the ball back because his first tends to lose it.

So I don't see much value in talking about it. But I do see value in talking about Sara because I think he gets away with stuff no other player would which is fine when he's delivering in an attacking sense but he hasn't done recently.

A poster even blamed Kenny for Sara being poor. It would make sense but even the players on the pitch and Sara himself knew it was his own fault as did the ex-pro on co-comms. 

Sara has always backed out of 50/50s so I can live with that. I can live with him being caught out of position regularly. I can live with him apologising to Kenny for not making any movements off the ball at times. So long as he's doing the stuff he is good at well, because he's very good at it.

Yesterday he didn't. He was painfully safe on the ball and made it so, so easy for Millwall. I don't think the wide players helped with their movement etc but still.

Think this is the point with Sara, I don’t want him being the player going in to 50/50 tackles with the intent of getting the ball or the man. That’s the role that is missing in the team and one that neither Nunez or McLean is suitable for.it’s not about thuggery but about being a hard working and hard tackling player either basic like Tettey or a bit classier like Skipp.

Sara is the player that I want to receive the ball after the tackler wins it back. He can then uses his undoubted class to create something with a FORWARD pass (sadly Wagner seems to have told him only to pass sideways or backwards!)

 

[hogesar 9,676]

15 minutes ago, rock bus said:

Think this is the point with Sara, I don’t want him being the player going in to 50/50 tackles with the intent of getting the ball or the man. That’s the role that is missing in the team and one that neither Nunez or McLean is suitable for.it’s not about thuggery but about being a hard working and hard tackling player either basic like Tettey or a bit classier like Skipp.

Sara is the player that I want to receive the ball after the tackler wins it back. He can then uses his undoubted class to create something with a FORWARD pass (sadly Wagner seems to have told him only to pass sideways or backwards!)

 

I think its really letting Sara off the hook to say Wagner has told him not to pass forward, Wagner seemed to be shouting and arm Waving at Sara to pass it forwards!

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

I think a lot of our players are being hampered and held back by rigid system that gets the worst out of them. If they don’t conform they get dropped- see Wagner’s comment about Rowe not playing well enough - even though Onel starts every game with zero end product. And Barnes plays week in and week out despite it being obvious he is a spent force. Get out Wagner you are holding us back 

[shefcanary 2,409]

14 hours ago, hogesar said:

No, as much as you want to make it about Kenny it wasn't. Sara was moved into basically the 10 position later on in the game as the heatmap shows and was no more effective. He rarely passed forward, he apologised to be fair to him, several times, for being massively out of position which Kenny pointed out to him. 

There is no excuse for Sara passing sideways at every opportunity.

It doesn't surprise me that yet another ex-pro in Darrel Russel thought Sara was very poor but Kenny at least tried to force something to happen. Sara was happy to pass it backward and sidewards 700 times if given the opportunity. He was even told to turn by coaches and still faced with his back to goal and played it back unnecessarily

I wasn't making it Kenny per se, just that Sara looked happier alongside Nunez! Not sure why, but he does. And Kenny's best position now seems to be LCB. Let's play them in their right shaped holes FFS.

[hogesar 9,676]

2 hours ago, shefcanary said:

I wasn't making it Kenny per se, just that Sara looked happier alongside Nunez! Not sure why, but he does. And Kenny's best position now seems to be LCB. Let's play them in their right shaped holes FFS.

To be honest I think it's because on the ball Kenny steps up into that deep midfield position when he's at CB, almost like a temporary additional midfielder. So perhaps the answer is not to play Barnes and allow the additional midfielder.

[Yobocop 1,099]

8 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

That's what this season has been reduced to, isn't it? Hoping to watch Ipswich fail.

Calm down dear it’s only December 

[Yobocop 1,099]

2 hours ago, shefcanary said:

I wasn't making it Kenny per se, just that Sara looked happier alongside Nunez! Not sure why, but he does. And Kenny's best position now seems to be LCB. Let's play them in their right shaped holes FFS.

So let’s play a midfielder in defence and not play 2 out of the 3 Centre halves we have available there? 

definitely see the point you’re making and but it’s unorthodox to say the very least