An honest question about Norwich Management sackings

[The Real Buh 3,471]

Do we not sack managers because we are worried it’ll be awkward and we’ll look rude?

I’ve always thought that Delia and whomever else is involved is a bit afraid to sack a manager because they think he’s a thoroughly nice bloke, sacking him would be thoroughly awkward and rather rude.

What if we bump into him at the Jarrolds cheese counter? It’ll be ghastly!

I’m not totally unconvinced that we didn’t sack Dean Smith last year and allowed him to spend tens of thousands of pounds on a botched warm weather training trip because we were worried sacking him would be rude. That and to spite me as I was so, so right about him from an early point.

[Jimmy Raggatip 61]

can't get much ruder than how we sacked Farke, so no

[Ulfotto 641]

To be fair I think Wagner is the first to get longer than his performances deserve. The reason he has is because of the chaos off the field. The other managers who have had too long are for me Worthington, Neil had credit in the bank.

Ultimately the club is too loyal to anyone who has done well for the club in the past. People might not agree but I much prefer this to the sack happy approach that is all too prevalent these days.

[First Wazzock 904]

Perhaps if stopped employing such carp managers we wouldn't have to keep sacking them

[sonyc 5,541]

4 minutes ago, First Wazzock said:

Perhaps if stopped employing such carp managers we wouldn't have to keep sacking them

It is odd isn't it? The tactics employed by Wagner, the in-game decisions on formations, the messing about with midfielders playing sweeper or at CB....the negative set ups. It just isn't what is Norwich fans expect. It's not the Norwich way.

That's before we get to the recruitment. Of managers and players. Smith and Wagner were both so inferior to Farke. Why did we not get in an ambitious coach. At least we did when we appointed Neil. Same with Lambert, same with Farke.

Very poor stewardship. And here we are losing away miserably at Millwall. With barely any creativity. We've gone back to the mid to late 1990s. It feels as if we are solidly in a downward spiral. 

 

[Ulfotto 641]

18 minutes ago, Jimmy Raggatip said:

can't get much ruder than how we sacked Farke, so no

I loved Daniel Farke but the guy went 21 games without winning in the premier league. We are literally the only club where he would have lasted as long as he did.

[Nexus_Canary 1,024]

19 minutes ago, Ulfotto said:

To be fair I think Wagner is the first to get longer than his performances deserve. The reason he has is because of the chaos off the field. The other managers who have had too long are for me Worthington, Neil had credit in the bank.

Ultimately the club is too loyal to anyone who has done well for the club in the past. People might not agree but I much prefer this to the sack happy approach that is all too prevalent these days.

Smith got a year when everyone could see he was not the man for the job. He should have been out when we were mathematically down

[Ulfotto 641]

8 minutes ago, Nexus_Canary said:

Smith got a year when everyone could see he was not the man for the job. He should have been out when we were mathematically down

I get the sentiment but Smith hardly outstayed his welcome did he.

[Paul101 94]

30 minutes ago, First Wazzock said:

Perhaps if stopped employing such carp managers we wouldn't have to keep sacking them

Troll

[Nexus_Canary 1,024]

1 minute ago, Ulfotto said:

I get the sentiment but Smith hardly outstayed his welcome did he.

He outstayed his welcome from the minute he was appointed.

[Ulfotto 641]

16 minutes ago, Nexus_Canary said:

He outstayed his welcome from the minute he was appointed.

I still don’t fully the level of hate towards Smith. It’s hardly got better under Wagner in fact Wagner record in the championship is woeful compared to Smith’s. Smith was undone by the car crash of the 21/22 season rather than what happened in the season after.

[Nexus_Canary 1,024]

52 minutes ago, Ulfotto said:

I still don’t fully the level of hate towards Smith. It’s hardly got better under Wagner in fact Wagner record in the championship is woeful compared to Smith’s. Smith was undone by the car crash of the 21/22 season rather than what happened in the season after.

Disagree
He had the charisma of a wet paper bag and clearly his heart was still in the Midlands somewhere rather than with us.
Players regressed under him. We went from playing exciting football to boring pragmatic stuff, he made us boring and started the rot we have in place here. At least under Wagner at times we get a bit of entertainment and good football.

Anyway, its like harping on about an old school bully or crazy ex. Hes gone and better forgotten frankly.

[Ulfotto 641]

6 minutes ago, Nexus_Canary said:

Disagree
He had the charisma of a wet paper bag and clearly his heart was still in the Midlands somewhere rather than with us.
Players regressed under him. We went from playing exciting football to boring pragmatic stuff, he made us boring and started the rot we have in place here. At least under Wagner at times we get a bit of entertainment and good football.

Anyway, its like harping on about an old school bully or crazy ex. Hes gone and better forgotten frankly.

I agree with the point on Villa anything after that for Smith was simply sloppy seconds. Personally after the 21/22 season was finished I wiped the whole thing from memory and started afresh. The hangover of that season is still with us today and will remain with us for a long while yet I feel.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Ulfotto

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

1 hour ago, Ulfotto said:

I loved Daniel Farke but the guy went 21 games without winning in the premier league. 

Then got informed of his sacking in the dressing room after an away win in the Premier League.

The Leeds home game was probably what lost him his job, however people do forget that in the 10 games that he was sacked for (Brentford being the 11th, played after the decision was made in the boardroom) we did play Liverpool, Man City, Arsenal, and Chelsea. And Leicester who were holders of the FA Cup, got to the Semi's of the Europa Conference that season and had beaten Mab City in the Community Shield three weeks before playing us.

Edited December 29, 2023 by JonnyJonnyRowe

[Ulfotto 641]

1 minute ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

Then got informed of his sacking in the dressing room after an away win in the Premier League.

The Leeds home game was probably what lost him his job, however people do forget that in the 10 games that he was sacked for (Brentford being the 11th, played after the decision was made in the boardroom) we did play Liverpool, Man City, Arsenal, and Chelsea. And Leicester who were holders of the FA Cup, got to the Semi's of the Europa Conference that season and had beaten Mab City in the Community Shield three weeks before playing us.

I loved the guy but 21 games without a win in the Premier League. 21 games.

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

Just now, Ulfotto said:

I loved the guy but 21 games without a win in the Premier League. 21 games.

The fans had turned after that Leeds game.

It was an appalling decision to let him take the Brentford game though, or at least tell the chap on Monday morning at Colney rather than in the dressing room.

And Dean Smith was a disaster of a replacement.

Sacking Farke I had no massive opposition to at the time, the way it was done was dreadful, sacking him without a decent succession plan was criminal. Lets not forget that Farke was sacked before Dean Smith was unemployed.

[Nexus_Canary 1,024]

17 minutes ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

The fans had turned after that Leeds game.

It was an appalling decision to let him take the Brentford game though, or at least tell the chap on Monday morning at Colney rather than in the dressing room.

And Dean Smith was a disaster of a replacement.

Sacking Farke I had no massive opposition to at the time, the way it was done was dreadful, sacking him without a decent succession plan was criminal. Lets not forget that Farke was sacked before Dean Smith was unemployed.

See I dont recall that they had. 
Like i remember the types who think we should win the Champions League ( I put them in the same camp as Ipswich fans who still think they are European greats) who will boo over anything and then everyone else who knew that we had recruited badly.
I think Farke had enormous credit in the bank at this stage.

Also look at that run, we shouldnt have expected many more points than we got, 7-0 at Stamford Bridge was probably the toughest one to take.

Also just for interest, look at those first 4 games, that and the media sending us down before we kicked a ball what did we expect?

Again it just goes along my hate for Dean Smith, Farke will always be the one that got away. 
Fcuking criminal decision which is the worst of the modern era by the club.
Ironically hiring him being perhaps the best - although (tin hat on) hiring Webber who found him was perhaps the best hire of the modern era.
Although he out stayed his welcome dramatically. Many strands in a spiders web i guess 🙂

[Robert N. LiM 4,464]

On 29/12/2023 at 23:42, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

The Leeds home game was probably what lost him his job

I think it was a combination of the appalling surrender at Chelsea and the chaotic home games against Watford and Leeds, where it seemed we couldn't even get points off our direct relegation rivals.

 

On 29/12/2023 at 23:47, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

It was an appalling decision to let him take the Brentford game though, or at least tell the chap on Monday morning at Colney rather than in the dressing room.

Just on a point of order, the Brentford game was before an international break, so the players were all heading off in different directions that evening. My understanding was that Farke was told immediately after the game so that they could organise a farewell for him at Colney that evening. Had it been done on a Monday morning, a lot of the players would not have got that farewell.

And the decision to let him take the Brentford game was clearly based on a desire to not disrupt preparations for that game, which I guess was justified since we won it. It was a club-first, Farke-second decision.

Completely fair to disagree with both parts of that decision, but there was a logic behind both of them, and I don't think it was as callous as it's been portrayed.

[essex canary 504]

On 29/12/2023 at 21:34, Jimmy Raggatip said:

can't get much ruder than how we sacked Farke, so no

Delia was probably confident that she wouldn't encounter Farke in future at the Jarrold Cheese Counter.

Edited January 14 by essex canary

[lake district canary 4,542]

On 29/12/2023 at 23:45, Ulfotto said:

I loved the guy but 21 games without a win in the Premier League. 21 games.

AARRRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!   This stupid useless meaningless stat........again!

Yes, it's a fact, but do people that dwell on it actually realise the circumstances of it all?   

The last 9 results of the first PL season were a direct result of the lockdown and the way the lack of fans impacted games. It totally favoured the technically better teams - which was every other team in the league. We saw that the following season when we walked the league - it helped us then - but in the PL, we were done for as soon as lockdown hit.  Momentum too was lost, although that is harder to judge or assess.

It is always the same, if you dwell on the past too much in anything, it is unhelpful in every way. That stat even ignores the superb record breaking season we had in between the two PL seasons. I never look too far back when it comes to football - there are so many variables that can affect things. For instance, even if you are bottom of the championship at Christmas, it is possible to get in the play offs......football is that open to unpredictability.

The affects of covid, lockdowns, injuries, horendous fixture list, certain players being difficult behind he scenes, the fact that we never got the right players in for that second PL season, all of that appears to mean nothing to some people. They say "it is was the same for all teams", but that - again - just ignores our partcular situation.

It was bad enough to sack Farke at all, worse that they did it when they did and folly upon folly to have no credible plan for his replacement. Inability to buy good enough players for the PL was the problem, not Farke, who - with his coaching team - were the best chance we had of rebulding again long term. We were always going to be relegated that season - at least with Farke we had a manager who was a good fit for the club - and a proven ability to re-group and succeed again after a bad season. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,576]

On 29/12/2023 at 22:51, sonyc said:

It is odd isn't it? The tactics employed by Wagner, the in-game decisions on formations, the messing about with midfielders playing sweeper or at CB....the negative set ups. It just isn't what is Norwich fans expect. It's not the Norwich way.

That's before we get to the recruitment. Of managers and players. Smith and Wagner were both so inferior to Farke. Why did we not get in an ambitious coach. At least we did when we appointed Neil. Same with Lambert, same with Farke.

Very poor stewardship. And here we are losing away miserably at Millwall. With barely any creativity. We've gone back to the mid to late 1990s. It feels as if we are solidly in a downward spiral. 

 

Farke wasn't an ambitious appointment; he was an unproven B team manager from a big club in Germany that our then sporting director, Stuart Webber, thought was worth a go. Both Wagner and Smith came here with higher level achievements on their CV.

The odd thing with Norwich is we actually seem to be good at getting the best out of bargain basement. It's when we try to get a bit more ambitious in our recruitment of both players and managers that the wheels seem to come off.

[Norfolk Dan 308]

On 29/12/2023 at 20:56, The Real Buh said:

What if we bump into him at the Jarrolds cheese counter? 

Jarrolds has a cheese counter!? As a Norfolk expat in Dorset I can't wait for my next visit... 

Smell my cheese! 

[The Real Buh 3,471]

2 minutes ago, Norfolk Dan said:

Jarrolds has a cheese counter!? As a Norfolk expat in Dorset I can't wait for my next visit... 

Smell my cheese! 

Mate… They’ve got a cheese ROOM.

[Well b back 3,263]

25 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

AARRRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!   This stupid useless meaningless stat........again!

Yes, it's a fact, but do people that dwell on it actually realise the circumstances of it all?   

The last 9 results of the first PL season were a direct result of the lockdown and the way the lack of fans impacted games. It totally favoured the technically better teams - which was every other team in the league. We saw that the following season when we walked the league - it helped us then - but in the PL, we were done for as soon as lockdown hit.  Momentum too was lost, although that is harder to judge or assess.

It is always the same, if you dwell on the past too much in anything, it is unhelpful in every way. That stat even ignores the superb record breaking season we had in between the two PL seasons. I never look too far back when it comes to football - there are so many variables that can affect things. For instance, even if you are bottom of the championship at Christmas, it is possible to get in the play offs......football is that open to unpredictability.

The affects of covid, lockdowns, injuries, horendous fixture list, certain players being difficult behind he scenes, the fact that we never got the right players in for that second PL season, all of that appears to mean nothing to some people. They say "it is was the same for all teams", but that - again - just ignores our partcular situation.

It was bad enough to sack Farke at all, worse that they did it when they did and folly upon folly to have no credible plan for his replacement. Inability to buy good enough players for the PL was the problem, not Farke, who - with his coaching team - were the best chance we had of rebulding again long term. We were always going to be relegated that season - at least with Farke we had a manager who was a good fit for the club - and a proven ability to re-group and succeed again after a bad season. 

With the squad he has at Leeds he has no excuses. If he does get promoted however, it will be with a far better team than we had and if he loses 5 games on the run, let alone 21 he will be out on his ear.

[Ulfotto 641]

10 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

AARRRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!   This stupid useless meaningless stat........again!

Yes, it's a fact, but do people that dwell on it actually realise the circumstances of it all?   

The last 9 results of the first PL season were a direct result of the lockdown and the way the lack of fans impacted games. It totally favoured the technically better teams - which was every other team in the league. We saw that the following season when we walked the league - it helped us then - but in the PL, we were done for as soon as lockdown hit.  Momentum too was lost, although that is harder to judge or assess.

It is always the same, if you dwell on the past too much in anything, it is unhelpful in every way. That stat even ignores the superb record breaking season we had in between the two PL seasons. I never look too far back when it comes to football - there are so many variables that can affect things. For instance, even if you are bottom of the championship at Christmas, it is possible to get in the play offs......football is that open to unpredictability.

The affects of covid, lockdowns, injuries, horendous fixture list, certain players being difficult behind he scenes, the fact that we never got the right players in for that second PL season, all of that appears to mean nothing to some people. They say "it is was the same for all teams", but that - again - just ignores our partcular situation.

It was bad enough to sack Farke at all, worse that they did it when they did and folly upon folly to have no credible plan for his replacement. Inability to buy good enough players for the PL was the problem, not Farke, who - with his coaching team - were the best chance we had of rebulding again long term. We were always going to be relegated that season - at least with Farke we had a manager who was a good fit for the club - and a proven ability to re-group and succeed again after a bad season. 

Firstly I love Daniel Farke. My points from the posts above are the club is normally too loyal to managers who have brought the club success. 
 

The points made are well argued but I feel dwell on the fact that managerial change didn’t work. If it had and had someone had kept us in the premier league? Would the sacking of Farke still come up to the extend it does. It is seen as crossroads moment where keep Farke is good and sack Farke bad. You mention the lockdowns and yes project restart was a unique situation but you can’t have it both ways. The following season Farke benefited from not having fans in the ground with the team shuttering start to the season and Emi and Todd being difficult. We relied on moments of magic  from Vrancic to win a few very close games. I can’t imagine the atmosphere on Carrow road being particular good following relegation if we then losing to Derby 1-0 or struggling to beat Rotherham.

My point remains that sacking Farke was not an unreasonable decision. On a human level remember Webber is a human being he knew that if the sacking went wrong he was trashing his own reputation and making Farke a saint. It would have much easier to sit on his hands and allow Farke to become a hate figure like Worthington became.

[Barham Blitz 654]

1 hour ago, The Real Buh said:

Mate… They’ve got a cheese ROOM.

Spurs fan forum about to melt down with why aren't we Norwich threads....

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/feb/11/tottenham-new-stadium-no-cheese-room-spurs?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

 

Edited January 14 by Barham Blitz

[The Real Buh 3,471]

19 minutes ago, Barham Blitz said:

Spurs fan forum about to melt down with why aren't we Norwich threads....

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/feb/11/tottenham-new-stadium-no-cheese-room-spurs?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

 

https://www.jarrolds.co.uk/departments/the-deli/the-cheese-room
 

Absolute plebs! don’t have a cheese room? And they wanted to be in the superleague?

[Big Vince 318]

On 29/12/2023 at 21:41, Ulfotto said:

To be fair I think Wagner is the first to get longer than his performances deserve. The reason he has is because of the chaos off the field. The other managers who have had too long are for me Worthington, Neil had credit in the bank.

Ultimately the club is too loyal to anyone who has done well for the club in the past. People might not agree but I much prefer this to the sack happy approach that is all too prevalent these days.

No. Gino Pozzo has it about right.

But at Norwich sacking the manager rather misses the point. It is the owners who are to blame because they always sell players to shore up their own position. Realistically, what manager is ever going to succeed here, especially longer term, which, ironically, is what Delia craves so much.

[Norfolk Dan 308]

On 14/01/2024 at 09:50, The Real Buh said:

Mate… They’ve got a cheese ROOM.

Cheese Room... If anyone knows the real Cheeseboard I would love to borrow his hat for my visit! 

[hogesar 9,720]

On 14/01/2024 at 09:23, lake district canary said:

AARRRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!   This stupid useless meaningless stat........again!

Yes, it's a fact, but do people that dwell on it actually realise the circumstances of it all?   

The last 9 results of the first PL season were a direct result of the lockdown and the way the lack of fans impacted games. It totally favoured the technically better teams - which was every other team in the league. We saw that the following season when we walked the league - it helped us then - but in the PL, we were done for as soon as lockdown hit.  Momentum too was lost, although that is harder to judge or assess.

It is always the same, if you dwell on the past too much in anything, it is unhelpful in every way. That stat even ignores the superb record breaking season we had in between the two PL seasons. I never look too far back when it comes to football - there are so many variables that can affect things. For instance, even if you are bottom of the championship at Christmas, it is possible to get in the play offs......football is that open to unpredictability.

The affects of covid, lockdowns, injuries, horendous fixture list, certain players being difficult behind he scenes, the fact that we never got the right players in for that second PL season, all of that appears to mean nothing to some people. They say "it is was the same for all teams", but that - again - just ignores our partcular situation.

It was bad enough to sack Farke at all, worse that they did it when they did and folly upon folly to have no credible plan for his replacement. Inability to buy good enough players for the PL was the problem, not Farke, who - with his coaching team - were the best chance we had of rebulding again long term. We were always going to be relegated that season - at least with Farke we had a manager who was a good fit for the club - and a proven ability to re-group and succeed again after a bad season. 

Bits of your post above are totally fair and correct but I don't think Brentford or Burnley or Watford were technically superior to that side yet they all finished above us and done better in that 9 game no-fan spell