Wagner is staying; Confirmed?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,624]

Does anyone know when Wagner's contract expires?

[hogesar 9,859]

2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

They are completely deluded in their echo chamber. Unfortunately they got off lightly against Blackburn so that will have emboldened them 

Bizarrely, but in a way nice to see, the fans ended up getting behind the team for a bit second half after the sending off too!

But I guess you were there and had the opportunity like everyone else to let the board know your feelings. Clearly the majority aren't that desperate for Wagner to go. Not that it means he shouldn't 

[canarybubbles 1,978]

So we sack him today? Then what?

One of the main reasons we're in this mess is bad decisions made in haste or panic.

Show some trust in the new SD and give him some time.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,325]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

So we sack him today? Then what?

One of the main reasons we're in this mess is bad decisions made in haste or panic.

Show some trust in the new SD and give him some time.

When has this board made a panic or haste decision? Quite often it’s the opposite.

Managers have always been kept too long and never has there been an example of them turning it around and the decision to stick  vindicated. Worthy, Roeder, Neil, Farke, Smith and now Wagner. 

[canarybubbles 1,978]

3 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

When has this board made a panic or haste decision? Quite often it’s the opposite.

Managers have always been kept too long and never has there been an example of them turning it around and the decision to stick  vindicated. Worthy, Roeder, Neil, Farke, Smith and now Wagner. 

Webber's decision to abandon possession football before our second PL season; Webber's sacking of Farke twelve games after giving him a four-year contract; Webber's hiring of Smith as soon as he unexpectedly became available; Webber's hasty hiring of Wagner when it became clear that he would have to sack Smith even though he didn't want to; Webber's/Wagner's lurch away from hiring/keeping/developing young players with technical ability in favour of our current Dad's Army and how-far-can-he-run hiring policy.

I agree with you that historically we have hung on too long. But IMO this is not the reason for our recent disastrous decline.

[Morph 19]

7 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Does anyone know when Wagner's contract expires?

It doesn’t, it’s a rolling 12 month contract. I can only assume that every day he has another 12 months to go.

presumably means termination requires paying him 12 months pay.

[PurpleCanary 5,623]

22 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

When has this board made a panic or haste decision? Quite often it’s the opposite.

Managers have always been kept too long and never has there been an example of them turning it around and the decision to stick  vindicated. Worthy, Roeder, Neil, Farke, Smith and now Wagner. 

But they did stick with Farke, Twice. And that was vindicated.

[S_81 929]

11 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

That’s poor. The theory is fine but only if you have a decent manager. I fear we don’t 

There no fear about it. We clearly don’t have a decent manager 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,624]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

But they did stick with Farke, Twice. And that was vindicated.

Partially, in the context of the championship; in the context of sticking with him for survival in the premier league it didn't work. On that score the whole holistic approach turned out to be flawed. That's not all Farke's fault, but changing approach had to include changing him.

[Capt. Pants 4,348]

With Wagner being on a rolling contract the only decision is when to end it. A knee jerk decision and we end up with another panic appointment as Smith was, as Wagner was. As it stands there isn't an obvious replacement.

Bizarrely I think Wagner is safer now that Webber is out of the picture, purely because Knapper has to get his feet under the table, run the rule over the coaching team, develop a relationship with the players and see how the land lies with the owners and BOD.

It seems daft to replace Wagner with a caretaker so I'm inclined to treat him as one. I think I would prefer that over Hughes or Pelach.

QPR is huge though. Win that and we have clear daylight over the bottom 3, lose it and they have a decision to make.

 

[MORDENCANARY 71]

2 hours ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

When has this board made a panic or haste decision? Quite often it’s the opposite.

Managers have always been kept too long and never has there been an example of them turning it around and the decision to stick  vindicated. Worthy, Roeder, Neil, Farke, Smith and now Wagner. 

There was one example of a manager turning it around. In the 81-82 season Ken Brown was under pressure going into Christmas,  City were newly relegated and sitting below mid table. City were 2-0 down at half time against Watford at FCR . Apparently the normally mild mannered Brown blew a gasket at the interval and Norwich went on to win 4-2. In the New Year City signed Martin O'Neil  and went on to gain promotion. 

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,325]

2 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

Webber's decision to abandon possession football before our second PL season; Webber's sacking of Farke twelve games after giving him a four-year contract; Webber's hiring of Smith as soon as he unexpectedly became available; Webber's hasty hiring of Wagner when it became clear that he would have to sack Smith even though he didn't want to; Webber's/Wagner's lurch away from hiring/keeping/developing young players with technical ability in favour of our current Dad's Army and how-far-can-he-run hiring policy.

I agree with you that historically we have hung on too long. But IMO this is not the reason for our recent disastrous decline.

Fair comment.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,325]

1 minute ago, MORDENCANARY said:

There was one example of a manager turning it around. In the 81-82 season Ken Brown was under pressure going into Christmas,  City were newly relegated and sitting below mid table. City were 2-0 down at half time against Watford at FCR . Apparently the normally mild mannered Brown blew a gasket at the interval and Norwich went on to win 4-2. In the New Year City signed Martin O'Neil  and went on to gain promotion. 

I meant under the current ownership.. but nice example!

[Google Bot 3,419]

2 hours ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

When has this board made a panic or haste decision? Quite often it’s the opposite.

Quite often it is delayed, but I quite like that from a morality perspective.

Currently, if we got a new coach in to replace Wagner it would be the 4th permanent manager to sit in the dugout in just over 2 years. That's a lot of changing for a club that has to keep things tight. 

The way I look at it is that Wagner and the system employed is a blueprint developed for both promotion and survival in the prem league, and this is why the club will be applying longterm logic to assess the situation. 

What makes it a very hard call is where we've shown that when players are fit and available, we're a free scoring team that causes problems to most teams.   But when not fit or available the defensive frailties are evident.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

If he is staying, and it appears so, then we have to hope Knapper isn't a wallflower. It is probably our only hope that he can say to Wagner that he has got it wrong and we want to play the way we did for the last 20 minutes against Cardiff.

[Tetteys Jig 831]

6 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

So we sack him today? Then what?

One of the main reasons we're in this mess is bad decisions made in haste or panic.

Show some trust in the new SD and give him some time.

Exactly. The win gives Wagner a stay of execution and the new SD time to actually assess things before he pulls the trigger. Not like we’re near relegation or promotion at the moment.

[Jim Smith 2,367]

11 hours ago, hogesar said:

Bizarrely, but in a way nice to see, the fans ended up getting behind the team for a bit second half after the sending off too!

But I guess you were there and had the opportunity like everyone else to let the board know your feelings. Clearly the majority aren't that desperate for Wagner to go. Not that it means he shouldn't 

They are. They have just been numbed into apathy unfortunately. 

[hogesar 9,859]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

They are. They have just been numbed into apathy unfortunately. 

If they're "numbed into apathy" they can't be that desperate for Wagner to leave, otherwise they wouldn't be apathetic towards it would they? It can't be both. 

I was more vocal about Wagners weaknesses / the players not turning up vs Blackburn than most of those around me in the Lower Barclay which says enough!

[norfolkngood 1,101]

Knapper has known he has had the job quite a while ,

he has been in contact with the club since so he should know what is going on ,

I would also be disappointed if he already didn't have a plan .

might be his first week in the job but he must have been watching thinking how he can improve things ,

Every since he accepted the you would be getting plans put in place  not wait until you got there surely ? 

if Knapper keeps Wagner another month and nothing improves that is lesson No1 and showing us knapper has a lot to learn 

 

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,325]

3 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Quite often it is delayed, but I quite like that from a morality perspective.

Currently, if we got a new coach in to replace Wagner it would be the 4th permanent manager to sit in the dugout in just over 2 years. That's a lot of changing for a club that has to keep things tight. 

The way I look at it is that Wagner and the system employed is a blueprint developed for both promotion and survival in the prem league, and this is why the club will be applying longterm logic to assess the situation. 

What makes it a very hard call is where we've shown that when players are fit and available, we're a free scoring team that causes problems to most teams.   But when not fit or available the defensive frailties are evident.

Do you genuinely believe this? Wagner was a poor appointment, and contrary to my earlier point was knee jerk and the easy option for Webber. I see no blue print of any sort or style of play from Wagner that could possibly achieve either outcome.

Wagners tactics and decisions are bizarre and appear to lack competence. Playing PP at left back is just insane. 

Wagner faces a near impossible battle to overturn this situation. Even if he gets some positive results in the next few weeks, the damage that two very poor runs has done will not be repaired. There will always be that doubt in supporters minds, and as soon as results turn negative, we’ll be back here again quickly. It’s just not sustainable for long term success. 

The situation is such that Wagner has been bought more time by the events of changing sporting directors. Wagner should’ve gone before Knapper arrived, but the board took the easy option to leave him in post and allow Knapper to ‘assess’ the situation. Which in reality, means another few weeks / months of poor form for us fans to suffer, before he is inevitably dismissed. 
 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Creedence Clearwater Couto

[Google Bot 3,419]

22 hours ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Do you genuinely believe this? Wagner was a poor appointment, and contrary to my earlier point was knee jerk and the easy option for Webber. I see no blue print of any sort or style of play from Wagner that could possibly achieve either outcome.

Yes definitely believe this, Personally I see Wagner as being the man we should've bought in when Farke went.  And it's clear to see what his blueprint is but we lack the players to fulfil it currently.

The reason it looks so poor right now is his reluctance to change style, and I believe that instruction comes relates to the SD and not a decision that the head coach makes on his own.

Our system dictates everything from youth development, to player recruitment and through to first team training.  If we chop and change in a reactive manner because of a few losses which can be explainable due to injuries then the Sporting Director/Head Coach role is undermined.   

I said from the minute Barnes/Sarge were injured that we've got to dig in throughout this period.  That's changed with Knapper coming, all eyes on him to see what decisions are made I guess.  I don't think he's going to feel all that upset with Wagner based on his experience, play style, demeanour and results when players are fit.

I'd rather a more reasoned longterm decision be made, rather than rash short-terms, personally.

[PurpleCanary 5,623]

On 14/11/2023 at 10:30, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

I meant under the current ownership.. but nice example!

We sacked John Bowman in June 1907 despite him having a win percentage of 39.7...😍

[Jim Smith 2,367]

23 hours ago, norfolkngood said:

Knapper has known he has had the job quite a while ,

he has been in contact with the club since so he should know what is going on ,

I would also be disappointed if he already didn't have a plan .

might be his first week in the job but he must have been watching thinking how he can improve things ,

Every since he accepted the you would be getting plans put in place  not wait until you got there surely ? 

if Knapper keeps Wagner another month and nothing improves that is lesson No1 and showing us knapper has a lot to learn 

 

I agree with this. It’s inconceivable to me that, given the step up it is for him, Knapper has not been preparing for day 1 in the job since he got it. I would have expected him to be watching all our games, speaking to people in the game and formulating his first moves, including what to do about the coach. If he hasn’t been doing that then I’d find it disappointing. 

[hogesar 9,859]

27 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I agree with this. It’s inconceivable to me that, given the step up it is for him, Knapper has not been preparing for day 1 in the job since he got it. I would have expected him to be watching all our games, speaking to people in the game and formulating his first moves, including what to do about the coach. If he hasn’t been doing that then I’d find it disappointing. 

I suspect he will have been, obviously, but is buying himself time and the Cardiff result has allowed that.

Ultimately, for all Wagner's weaknesses, there is clear evidence he hasn't lost the dressing room yet, and for Knapper having time to assess from inside the club rather than looking from the outside in is probably pretty important. How do the players feel? The other coaches? How many players are p*ssed off with not playing, do experienced players believe in the system Wagner is trying to deploy? 

He won't know that until, well, now. Ish.

[PurpleCanary 5,623]

29 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I suspect he will have been, obviously, but is buying himself time and the Cardiff result has allowed that.

Ultimately, for all Wagner's weaknesses, there is clear evidence he hasn't lost the dressing room yet, and for Knapper having time to assess from inside the club rather than looking from the outside in is probably pretty important. How do the players feel? The other coaches? How many players are p*ssed off with not playing, do experienced players believe in the system Wagner is trying to deploy? 

He won't know that until, well, now. Ish.

Quite, and exactly what Knapper is now saying. Yes, he has done research from the outside but needs to assess everything from the inside before making any crucial decisions.

[Michael Starr 527]

I think people thought that Knapper would just come in and immediately release Wagner. That was never going to happen. Knapper needs time to assess the entire operation as it is before even considering change. Like any top position. The best leaders observe / research / learn before they make their next moves. I'm actually relieved that Knapper isn't changing anything because it kinda shows that he's not for making quick uninformed decisions.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Michael Starr

[......and Smith must score. 1,375]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

Ultimately, for all Wagner's weaknesses, there is clear evidence he hasn't lost the dressing room yet, and for Knapper having time to assess from inside the club rather than looking from the outside in is probably pretty important. 

There’s equally clear evidence he’s lost the fans if not the dressing room.

Lose either of those and it’s goodnight Vienna.

[hogesar 9,859]

23 minutes ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

There’s equally clear evidence he’s lost the fans if not the dressing room.

Lose either of those and it’s goodnight Vienna.

Apparently that wasn't the case at Cardiff. I wasn't there so only going what others who were have said.

And he certainly hasn't lost them to even Dean Smith early levels - I was one of the most vocal critics of his in the lower barclay vs Blackburn at home which should tell you enough!

[Google Bot 3,419]

3 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

he has done research from the outside but needs to assess everything from the inside before making any crucial decisions.

Oh, it's like being at a nightclub in Yarmouth for our Ben, how exciting!

[Capt. Pants 4,348]

20 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

I agree with this. It’s inconceivable to me that, given the step up it is for him, Knapper has not been preparing for day 1 in the job since he got it. I would have expected him to be watching all our games, speaking to people in the game and formulating his first moves, including what to do about the coach. If he hasn’t been doing that then I’d find it disappointing. 

Perhaps the 'people in the game' you are referring to, or any other trusted ally, recommend that he initially stick with the Head Coach.

I'm not totally happy with it either but it seems the sensible approach. It would be incredibly brave or foolish to walk into a new (high profile job) and effectively isolate yourself on Day 1. 

Obviously he hasn't got a replacement Head Coach in tow, hasn't met the players yet and built no relationships with the existing coach team, so I would have been concerned had he sacked Wagner right now.