Are managers really 'found out'?

[Sooty57 403]

As soon as a manager takes his team up from Championship to PL and starts to experience a dip in form the accusations start to fly that they were a good Championship manager but have been 'found out' in the PL. A few games in and I have already heard Vincent Kompany accused of this. Just a few off the top of my head that have had this said of them are Daniel Farke, David Wagner, Frank Lampard Wayne Rooney, and many, many more.

Surely this is a very simplistic argument that ignores the massive gulf in the size and quality of the playing squads they are up against. Maybe it's more a case of trying to win a Grand Prix in a sports car.

Look what a sh!tshow Newcastle were. Have they improved so much because Eddie Howe took charge, or because a Saudi resident came in with a blank cheque book? And no, I'm not advocating the sale of NCFC to the Saudis. 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Sooty57

[Peregrine Shorts 331]

when did Rooney manage in the premier league?

[Mason 47 1,399]

Case in point is Farke's Norwich playing through Buendia to feed Pukki. At Championship level, the opposition managers + players don't find solutions to these problems in any effective way. At PL level it wasn't enough and without our ferocious goalscoring available, our defensive lack was quickly exposed, thereby we were 'found out'.

 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

The three best managers in my view my lifetime have been Brian Clough, sir Alex and Pep. All three had their own philosophies but for me thing they all have in common was/ is an uncompromising view on how they want football to be played. It would seem from the outside, that to them, they were less about the opposition they were playing and more about an unyielding faith that they had the best team and system to get results against anyone. 
 

If you have uncompromising belief in a system you play and make your players feel loved and unbeatable while playing it, it goes a long way to being successful. They all played systems that allowed their best and most creative players to flourish while having solid defensive cover to protect the flashier players. 
 

Pep and Sir Alex also evolved the way they set their sides as other teams started to copy or identify how to play against them. Pep made the 433 fashionable now he’s changed to the 352 system. So with the technological advances and data analysis available it’s about staying ahead of the curve. 

[Yobocop 1,105]

33 minutes ago, Sooty57 said:

As soon as a manager takes his team up from Championship to PL and starts to experience a dip in form the accusations start to fly that they were a good Championship manager but have been 'found out' in the PL. A few games in and I have already heard Vincent Kompany accused of this. Just a few off the top of my head that have had this said of them are Daniel Farke, David Wagner, Frank Lampard Wayne Rooney, and many, many more.

Surely this is a very simplistic argument that ignores the massive gulf in the size and quality of the playing squads they are up against. Maybe it's more a case of trying to win a Grand Prix in a sports car.

Look what a sh!tshow Newcastle were. Have they improved so much because Eddie Howe took charge, or because a Saudi resident came in with a blank cheque book? And no, I'm not advocating the sale of NCFC to the Saudis. 

 

Whilst Newcastle have added to their squad I wouldn’t say they have ‘taken the pîšś’ in terms of signings, so whilst they have been taken over by the Saudi’s their spending has been relatively modest and thus Howe has done a great job 

[TheGunnShow 5,995]

Would Pep have been able to do that without the bankrolling? At least with Clough and Sir Alex you can argue that they built teams from lower down the table. Pep's always had top teams that were close to being ready-finished. He's definitely superb at taking top teams to the next level though.

But I'd rate Claudio Ranieri's Premier League win with that Leicester side above any of Pep's title wins.

[Bradwell canary 109]

12 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Would Pep have been able to do that without the bankrolling? At least with Clough and Sir Alex you can argue that they built teams from lower down the table. Pep's always had top teams that were close to being ready-finished. He's definitely superb at taking top teams to the next level though.

But I'd rate Claudio Ranieri's Premier League win with that Leicester side above any of Pep's title wins.

The best of all was Clough. Won the league, and European cup, with two different clubs, neither of which had ever achieved much in their past history.

Never made England manager, far too outspoken……some things never change.

He would have hated the words Head Coach!!

 

[Midlands Yellow 4,079]

David Pleat was on more than one occasion. 

[shefcanary 2,451]

28 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

The three best managers in my view my lifetime have been Brian Clough, sir Alex and Pep. All three had their own philosophies but for me thing they all have in common was/ is an uncompromising view on how they want football to be played. It would seem from the outside, that to them, they were less about the opposition they were playing and more about an unyielding faith that they had the best team and system to get results against anyone. 
 

If you have uncompromising belief in a system you play and make your players feel loved and unbeatable while playing it, it goes a long way to being successful. They all played systems that allowed their best and most creative players to flourish while having solid defensive cover to protect the flashier players. 
 

Pep and Sir Alex also evolved the way they set their sides as other teams started to copy or identify how to play against them. Pep made the 433 fashionable now he’s changed to the 352 system. So with the technological advances and data analysis available it’s about staying ahead of the curve. 

I would argue that they didn't do it all themselves but picked a really good right hand man to help them out. 

Cloughie & Taylor got a group of players who had been previously rejected by previous clubs (apart from Francis) and turned them into monsters, whereas the latter two have been able to cherry pick the best available (aside from Dion 🙂 ). Cloughie's problems started when he and Taylor fell out, and he took to the beer big style, to mourn his loss. Fergie leant on Phelan quite heavily, Pep has had a revolving door of strong sidekicks who seem to have a bit about them, and invariably go on to have good management careers themselves. 

Farke never really seemed to have a standout sidekick, he seemed quite collegiate with a team of background staff. Smith and Shakey was a new relationship, which in hindsight didn't work out, were they potentially too similar and too old school?

Wagner and Pelach together smack to me of another of Webber's impositions, a new pairing that seems to be very much less than the sum of its two parts.

Therein lies the dilemma for Knapper - he must make sure the head coach he brings in has the backroom staff they want. 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

I would argue that they didn't do it all themselves but picked a really good right hand man to help them out. 

Cloughie & Taylor got a group of players who had been previously rejected by previous clubs (apart from Francis) and turned them into monsters, whereas the latter two have been able to cherry pick the best available (aside from Dion 🙂 ). Cloughie's problems started when he and Taylor fell out, and he took to the beer big style, to mourn his loss. Fergie leant on Phelan quite heavily, Pep has had a revolving door of strong sidekicks who seem to have a bit about them, and invariably go on to have good management careers themselves. 

Farke never really seemed to have a standout sidekick, he seemed quite collegiate with a team of background staff. Smith and Shakey was a new relationship, which in hindsight didn't work out, were they potentially too similar and too old school?

Wagner and Pelach together smack to me of another of Webber's impositions, a new pairing that seems to be very much less than the sum of its two parts.

Therein lies the dilemma for Knapper - he must make sure the head coach he brings in has the backroom staff they want. 

I was under the impression that Pelach has previously worked with Wagner. I’ve not checked to see if that is correct or not though as of writing this. 

[shefcanary 2,451]

8 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

I was under the impression that Pelach has previously worked with Wagner. I’ve not checked to see if that is correct or not though as of writing this. 

As far as I understand, although Pelach came from Huddersfield (Webber again not straying from previous ground), but he didn't start with them until after both Webber and Wagner had left. He joined Huddersfield as part of Corberan's back room staff.

[king canary 7,674]

3 hours ago, Mason 47 said:

Case in point is Farke's Norwich playing through Buendia to feed Pukki. At Championship level, the opposition managers + players don't find solutions to these problems in any effective way. At PL level it wasn't enough and without our ferocious goalscoring available, our defensive lack was quickly exposed, thereby we were 'found out'.

 

Yes the unfortunate truth is that Farke's style of football at Norwich is actually really easy to play against if you've got the quality.

In the Championship we were so devastating going forward that teams would largely not press us or get in our face because they knew it was game over if their press got beaten and at that level the likes of Hanley, Gibson, McLean, Trybull or whoever is talented enough to do that.

However even midtable Premier League teams felt comfortable pressing us high because they were athletically and physically able to deal with our attack if we beat their press and that was rare because Hanley, Gibson, McLean, Trybull or anyone we signed wasn't capable of doing it very often.

So it was remarkably simple to beat us- press high, wait for one of our defenders or midfielders to either make an error or panic and hit it long, where you can pretty confident Pukki isn't winning many headers.

Where Farke was 'found out' (and I'd assume Kompany is similar although I haven't watched much Burnley this year) is an inability to adapt to that and find different ways to play. 

Watching Leeds it seems he's learned somewhat though- there is a much more organised high press and a focus on winning the ball back up the pitch and more of a willingness to play out quickly and slightly longer (Leeds have played the 8th most passes this season- at Norwich Farke's team were 3rd, 3rd and 1st in this stat in our respective promotion seasons). That, combined with a bigger budget may allow him a chance to avoid being 'found out' a third time.

Edited November 7, 2023 by king canary

[Mason 47 1,399]

11 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yes the unfortunate truth is that Farke's style of football at Norwich is actually really easy to play against if you've got the quality.

In the Championship we were so devastating going forward that teams would largely not press us or get in our face because they knew it was game over if their press got beaten and at that level the likes of Hanley, Gibson, McLean, Trybull or whoever is talented enough to do that.

However even midtable Premier League teams felt comfortable pressing us high because they were athletically and physically able to deal with our attack if we beat their press and that was rare because Hanley, Gibson, McLean, Trybull or anyone we signed wasn't capable of doing it very often.

So it was remarkably simple to beat us- press high, wait for one of our defenders or midfielders to either make an error or panic and hit it long, where you can pretty confident Pukki isn't winning many headers.

Where Farke was 'found out' (and I'd assume Kompany is similar although I haven't watched much Burnley this year) is an inability to adapt to that and find different ways to play. 

Watching Leeds it seems he's learned somewhat though- there is a much more organised high press and a focus on winning the ball back up the pitch and more of a willingness to play out quickly and slightly longer (Leeds have played the 8th most passes this season- at Norwich Farke's team were 3rd, 3rd and 1st in this stat in our respective promotion seasons). That, combined with a bigger budget may allow him a chance to avoid being 'found out' a third time.

And therein sort of lies a link to the money aspect the OP was getting at. Leeds have enough cash to have Summerville, Gnonto, Piroe and Dan James as a front 4 if they wish, at Championship level. Arguably individually better than Pukki, Buendia, Hernandez, Stiepermann.

I think what the modern game comes down to is how much cash you have, which dictates how adaptable you can be in-game (similarly the move go more subs). At this level, it's enough to be so good at something specific, other teams can't counter; a level up, a Swansea or Stoke archetype simply gets brushed aside now as every team above 15th has the set-up to pass or bully to a similar degree.

That doesn't even get started on a player like Haaland, who can go in behind, hold the ball up, drop deep or literally any connotation of modern striker you can think of. The Hanleys of the world aren't built to cope with that.

 

 

[Indy 3,315]

Until Salary caps and squad number control requiring say players over 23 being released if not included in a 30 man roster for that season, most promoted sides will no doubt struggle unless they’re well funded or fortunate through the season with injuries and results! Just the nature of the game and I don’t buy into this managers being found out as teams with best players win in general!

[Ulfotto 644]

On the OP comment I do wonder how much the win bonus increased by after the Saudi took over. Lots of players all of a sudden  seemed to redouble there efforts.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

The stupid thing with us is that Delia said top 26 and sacked a coach who achieved it.

[MORDENCANARY 71]

I believe the key is managers adopting philosophies and tactics that suit the standard of the squad . I recall a former Orient player years ago complaining about ex Forest player Frank Clark's tenure at the club. He said he wanted the players to play like the French national side of the era......when they were near the bottom of the old 4th division. 

 

[Sooty57 403]

7 hours ago, Peregrine Shorts said:

when did Rooney manage in the premier league?

Apologies, I meant he was accused of being 'found to' after a promising start.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Sooty57
typo

[zema abbey football genius 36]

I think the reality is, teams / players get found out. If Pep was in charge here, we might be doing better, but certainly wouldn’t be setting the league on fire.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,039]

17 hours ago, king canary said:

Yes the unfortunate truth is that Farke's style of football at Norwich is actually really easy to play against if you've got the quality.

In the Championship we were so devastating going forward that teams would largely not press us or get in our face because they knew it was game over if their press got beaten and at that level the likes of Hanley, Gibson, McLean, Trybull or whoever is talented enough to do that.

However even midtable Premier League teams felt comfortable pressing us high because they were athletically and physically able to deal with our attack if we beat their press and that was rare because Hanley, Gibson, McLean, Trybull or anyone we signed wasn't capable of doing it very often.

So it was remarkably simple to beat us- press high, wait for one of our defenders or midfielders to either make an error or panic and hit it long, where you can pretty confident Pukki isn't winning many headers.

Where Farke was 'found out' (and I'd assume Kompany is similar although I haven't watched much Burnley this year) is an inability to adapt to that and find different ways to play. 

Watching Leeds it seems he's learned somewhat though- there is a much more organised high press and a focus on winning the ball back up the pitch and more of a willingness to play out quickly and slightly longer (Leeds have played the 8th most passes this season- at Norwich Farke's team were 3rd, 3rd and 1st in this stat in our respective promotion seasons). That, combined with a bigger budget may allow him a chance to avoid being 'found out' a third time.

Agree that our style of play is easy to play against if you have quality......but.........only because the players playing it were not of high enough quality in the Premier League, the way Farke wants his teams to play is not that different to how Liverpool and Man City play the difference being of course those team have massively superior players...............