Back 5 no longer fashionable?

[hogesar 9,691]

Whether you class it as a 3 or a 5, it's been something I've seen suggested on here, albeit injuries to CB now make this difficult.

But I just read that this weekend only 3 of 24 teams played with a back 5. All three of those teams are in the bottom 5!

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

Be impossible to do next game as Duffy will be suspended as well as the injuries 

[S_81 803]

We could fit Bali Mumba in. Oh…. Maybe not.  

[Worthy Nigelton 1,055]

2 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Be impossible to do next game as Duffy will be suspended as well as the injuries 

Please tell me he's suspended for the next 11 years....

[hogesar 9,691]

1 minute ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

Please tell me he's suspended for the next 11 years....

If we're lucky we'll find out he's been guilty of breaching betting rules this week

[S_81 803]

Just now, hogesar said:

If we're lucky we'll find out he's been guilty of breaching betting rules this week

He’d win even more money than his contract if he was betting on us to lose 

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,288]

 

7 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Whether you class it as a 3 or a 5, it's been something I've seen suggested on here, albeit injuries to CB now make this difficult.

But I just read that this weekend only 3 of 24 teams played with a back 5. All three of those teams are in the bottom 5!

Lol. 

The house is on fire, but keep on cooking pal 😅

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

3 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

Please tell me he's suspended for the next 11 years....

1 game, Duffy massively disappoints me thought he started off OK and he was going to be what we were missing defensively, even had him as captain material, but he's turned into an utter liability. Although similar to Gibson penalised for a lack of dedicated CDM and having to shoehorn McLean into that role.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,055]

Just now, Ken Hairy said:

1 game, Duffy massively disappoints me thought he started off OK and he was going to be what we were missing defensively, even had him as captain material, but he's turned into an utter liability. Although similar to Gibson penalised for a lack of dedicated CDM and having to shoehorn McLean into that role.

He has undoubtedly been our worst player this year. I haven't seen every team in the league but I struggle to see how there has been a worse regular starter in the entire league and possibly even the league below. I am genuinely shocked at how bad he is. I was over the moon when he signed and thought he was just what we needed. I don't think I've ever been so badly wrong. For all the stick Gibson has got over the years, he's been head and shoulders above Duffy this year (that doesn't make him good, I  know).

[Pyro Pete 1,897]

Currently watching Luton playing with a back three against Liverpool.

Doing ok, so far.

[? 20]

I get the point being made, but can't help but feel that, considering that our defenders are terrible, I'm not sure putting more of them in the starting 11 is the answer.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

We virtually play a back 5 anyway with Kenny being so deep. 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,742]

18 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Be impossible to do next game as Duffy will be suspended as well as the injuries 

And Batth STILL won't get to play

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,822]

I like the back three system with two attacking wing backs. It would certainly suit our full backs, but we don't have enough centre backs at the moment to give it a proper go, and we're overloaded with wingers as well, so we don't really have the squad to do it. 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,822]

10 minutes ago, ? said:

I get the point being made, but can't help but feel that, considering that our defenders are terrible, I'm not sure putting more of them in the starting 11 is the answer.

The other side of the coin is that they need an extra body in there to help them.

[Virtual reality 712]

Defending and marking seem unfashionable as well

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,822]

2 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

I grew up with Craig Brown playing with a back three. We qualified for Euro 96, France 98 and we should have qualified for the 2000 World Cup as we battered England in the playoffs.

When Brown left and Berti Vogts came in he ripped up Craig Brow's blueprints that were so successful. He went to s back 4.

For the next 20 years we failed to qualify for anything as Vogts, Smith, McLeish, Levein, McLeish (again) and Strachan stubbornly stuck with a back 4.

Then Steve Came in. He got to the point where he switched to a back 3. Suddenly we qualified for Euro 20. Reaching the playoffs of WC 22 and now qualification for 24.

I was calling for a return to a back 3 for 20 years. Only to face universal ridicule.

I was right.

Scotland haven't produced good enough centerbacks to accommodate a back 4 since the late 80s/early 90s.

So, if you're leaking goals. If you're easy to play against, a back 3 is the only way to tighten up as it adds an extra body in defence and it generally tightens things up in midfield.

For some reason, the entire concept of a back three just completely disappeared in British football for about 15 years until Antonio Conte brought it back at Chelsea in 2016. 

I like it, and it doesn't have to be a defensive system either. Plenty of teams/coaches have used it in an attacking manner.

[Barham Blitz 653]

34 minutes ago, ? said:

I get the point being made, but can't help but feel that, considering that our defenders are terrible, I'm not sure putting more of them in the starting 11 is the answer.

That was going to be my point !

The issue with a back 3/5 is that it doesn't address - and indeed probably exacerbates - the fundamental issue around vertical depth in transition (big holes in central midfield when we lose the ball up the pitch if you don't like the jargon.).

It's fine if you are anticipating camping on your own 18 yard line for much of the game, and can be attacking if you have a defender capable of being the ball into midfield but I don't think it is the answer with the personnel available to us.

I still believe that a double pivot of some combination of Kenny / Gibbs / Sorenson and Forshaw, with Sara ahead of them in a slightly freer role is the only workable solution at the moment. Sara just cannot be relied upon to do the hard yards and is essentially wasted picking the ball off our own defence.

Don't have both full backs overlapping at the same time - one of them can still support but the other needs to be no further forward than the opposition midfield and ideally tucked in slightly to provide an option behind to retain possession and also cover the counter.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Barham Blitz

[pete 319]

Back 3,4 or 5 simply not merely unfashionable but unfeasible with our defenders.  That includes the current two favoured CB's Duffy and Gibson, Gibson fortunately out but with him missing the defence was unreliable.  We need CB's that are compatible and capable abd are able.  Currently they are deplorable and despicable.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,822]

8 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

I used to love watching Seria A and seeing the sweeper system in all it's glory. (The back three is a variant of the sweeper system.)

I grew up with it under Brown and I could see how effective it was.

British football fans are obsessed with a back four. Even if your team is clearly being torn apart.

And you're absolutely correct. A back three doesn't have to be negative.

One variant is to push the wingback forward into wingers and spread the centerbacks wide, this general creates an attacking overload while maintaining a defensive foundation, particularly if you're playing with an anchorman.

Then there's what Sheffield United done in their first season in the EPL, playing with overlapping centerbacks.

Yup, one of the best teams to watch in recent times was Gasperini's Atalanta, mainly in the 2018/19 and 2019/20 seasons. They never played with anything other than a back three and if I'm not mistaken, the only two sides to score more than them in Europe's big five leagues over those two seasons were Man City and Bayern. 

[Ken Hairy 3,773]

22 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

For some reason, the entire concept of a back three just completely disappeared in British football for about 15 years until Antonio Conte brought it back at Chelsea in 2016. 

I like it, and it doesn't have to be a defensive system either. Plenty of teams/coaches have used it in an attacking manner.

For years 3-5-2 was my go to tactic on FM 

[The Real Buh 3,445]

15 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

I used to love watching Seria A and seeing the sweeper system in all it's glory. (The back three is a variant of the sweeper system.)

I grew up with it under Brown and I could see how effective it was.

British football fans are obsessed with a back four. Even if your team is clearly being torn apart.

And you're absolutely correct. A back three doesn't have to be negative.

One variant is to push the wingback forward into wingers and spread the centerbacks wide, this general creates an attacking overload while maintaining a defensive foundation, particularly if you're playing with an anchorman.

Then there's what Sheffield United done in their first season in the EPL, playing with overlapping centerbacks.

Who actually gives a s@£t about what you think, grass?

[Mello Yello 2,296]

Back five is no longer fashionable but us probably being bottom five seems to be....

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,822]

8 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

For years 3-5-2 was my go to tactic on FM 

3-4-1-2 still is mine!

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,822]

22 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Yeah. I was about to mention Atalanta. It seemed like every week they were scoring 5 and 6 goals. It was astonishing.

Did you ever watch them? They played with both centerbacks overlapping simultaneously with the wingback becoming inverted anchormen.

It was awesome to watch.

I did watch them. In fact, I had a season ticket at Lecce in the 2019/20 season and my last live game in March 2020 before COVID hit was watching Atalanta spank Lecce 7-2. The front three of Gomez, Ilicic and Zapata were incredible and it was a pleasure to watch them live, even though they destroyed my team. It was the third time they'd hit seven in a league game that season, and they also won 5-0 against both Milan and Parma if I remember rightly. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

If Wagner is still here he might put Sara in the back 5.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,822]

15 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

It was pretty much a fluid 3 in attack wasn't it? I remember watching a few matches that season (I'm bad with years) and they just steamroller over teams.

It was incredible to watch. It was the epitome of idealistic football. I wouldn't be surprised if that Atalanta team wasn't everyone's second team. Much like Brighton are.

Lecce? Cool. Is that the season Liam Henderson played for Lecce? Still surprised that Henderson is uncapped.

Well, Zapata (or Muriel) was the focal point with Gomez and Ilicic basically doing whatever they want around him. As you say, a lot of neutrals really loved that team, and rightly so. 

Henderson was at Lecce the year after in the 2020/21 season. I didn't go to any games that year as I moved back to the UK in the autumn of 2020, but I still watched most of the games, as I do now (the less said about this evening's game, the better). Henderson had an incredible work rate and was a very likeable character, but Lecce lost in the playoffs and he was sold to help fund the following season's title win. He probably merited a call-up when he was playing regularly in the Serie A at Empoli, but if we're talking Scots in Italian football, then Henderson won't stand a chance if Lewis Ferguson is struggling for international minutes.

[Aggy 755]

3 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

For some reason, the entire concept of a back three just completely disappeared in British football for about 15 years until Antonio Conte brought it back at Chelsea in 2016. 

I like it, and it doesn't have to be a defensive system either. Plenty of teams/coaches have used it in an attacking manner.

Wasn’t van gaal playing 3/5 at the back at Man Utd before then? The manager of my Sunday league side at the time was a Man Utd fan and tried to get us playing it…

Edited November 5, 2023 by Aggy

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,822]

14 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Wasn’t van gaal playing 3/5 at the back at Man Utd before then? The manager of my Sunday league side at the time was a Man Utd fan and tried to get us playing it…

Yeah, he did, but it wasn't really successful.

I remember seeing a stat that only two of the Premier League's 20 teams started with a back three in at least one match during the 2015/16 season. After Conte's early success at Chelsea, I think it was 18 or 19 who did it in 2016/17.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,822]

3 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Yeah. Sounds more accurate. One up top and two number 10s? That's kinda what Scotland are morphing into.

Ah. I see. (I was going to mention tonight's game. 😉) Yes. He was a worker and he was almost neat and tidy. I remember watching him way back when he was playing for Celtic's youth team. He was always the standout player.

I just looked it up. He's still only 27! It's like he's been around forever. He did Well last season. I don't think it's too late for him.

Ah. Lewis Ferguson. I watched the Lazio game (he scored). I'll be honest, I'm shocked that he's doing so well. Not to knock the lad, but I think it's more to do with the dropping of standards of Seria A than Ferguson being good.

His brother (Derek) and uncle (Barry) were far better. I hope he proves me wrong, though. He's a good lad. Always turns up for Scotland even though he knows that he won't see much (or any) action.

I also watched the Bologna-Lazio game, and I like Ferguson; he may not get bums off seats but he's a very intelligent player and I believe he's leading the distance covered stats in Serie A this season. A combination of those two things is why he's such a goalscoring threat when he arrives in the box at the right time. He's also worn the captain's armband a couple of times recently and is an undisputed starter in a team which could challenge for Europe this season.