Toxic, but is calm needed?

[NFN FC 1,123]

[lake district canary 4,539]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

2 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Are you talking about Smith?  You neeed to get over it, he was not suited to this club. The sheer lack of intensity in training after Farke left is the single worst thing about his regime. And the football was pretty bad too.

You have absolutely no f*king right to say that with your bellyaching over Farke.

Farke had built up plenty of credit in the way he handled being manager. More class, more character, more philosophy, more intelligence and more charisma than Smith had in his little finger. Imo.

[lake district canary 4,539]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

2 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Are you talking about Smith?  You neeed to get over it, he was not suited to this club. The sheer lack of intensity in training after Farke left is the single worst thing about his regime. And the football was pretty bad too.

You have absolutely no f*king right to say that with your bellyaching over Farke.

Farke had built up plenty of credit in the way he handled being manager. More class, more character, more philosophy, more intelligence and more charisma than Smith had in his little finger. Imo.

[Nuff Said 5,146]

6 minutes ago, Canarywary said:

Do you genuinely think that every time we go on a bad run, the fans should turn toxic and we should sack the manager? And anything else is 'happy clapping' and causing the downfall of the club?

Clubs that get into cycles of replacing managers at the first sound of a boo often struggle to get out of that cycle, and also don't get very far.

This x 1000.
 

Knee-jerk changes are not a recipe for long-term success, look at Watford. I know many will say it’s not knee-jerk as the writing has been on the wall for a while, but things did look very different at the start of the season. For an outgoing SD to choose a new coach would be crazy, we have to either hang on to Wagner for now or make a temporary appointment.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,559]

3 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Farke had built up plenty of credit in the way he handled being manager. More class, more character, more philosophy, more intelligence and more charisma than Smith had in his little finger. Imo.

Nevertheless, Farke was sacked, and with good reason, with many fans calling for it, even though I was still sticking up for him when he was.

You should have got over it.

Edited October 25, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[lake district canary 4,539]

3 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

14 minutes ago, Canarywary said:

Do you genuinely think that every time we go on a bad run, the fans should turn toxic and we should sack the manager? And anything else is 'happy clapping' and causing the downfall of the club?

Clubs that get into cycles of replacing managers at the first sound of a boo often struggle to get out of that cycle, and also don't get very far.

This x 1000.

Knee-jerk changes are not a recipe for long-term success, look at Watford. I know many will say it’s not knee-jerk as the writing has been on the wall for a while, but things did look very different at the start of the season. For an outgoing SD to choose a new coach would be crazy, we have to either hang on to Wagner for now or make a temporary appointment.

 Agree 100%

[littleyellowbirdie 2,559]

What we don't need is another philosophy manager. Farke was the best go at that, but it was ultimately a failure, and the second go has seen us go backwards.

Lambert wasn't a philosophy manager, nor was Hughton; they're the ones who have given us the most success in the last 20 years. Let's have a manager who works his style to suit the players, not the other way around.

[S_81 805]

15 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

This x 1000.
 

Knee-jerk changes are not a recipe for long-term success, look at Watford. I know many will say it’s not knee-jerk as the writing has been on the wall for a while, but things did look very different at the start of the season. For an outgoing SD to choose a new coach would be crazy, we have to either hang on to Wagner for now or make a temporary appointment.

I think the latter. At this point I don’t think either the young coach we brought in or Neil Adams would be worse on a temporary basis than keeping Wagner in charge. It would also clear the decks so the new DoF didn’t have to make that choice - instead focussing on who comes next. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,559]

33 minutes ago, Canarywary said:

Do you genuinely think that every time we go on a bad run, the fans should turn toxic and we should sack the manager? And anything else is 'happy clapping' and causing the downfall of the club?

Clubs that get into cycles of replacing managers at the first sound of a boo often struggle to get out of that cycle, and also don't get very far.

Ironically, the time for pragmatism was last season. At worst,  we would have seen through the season in an okay position under Smith ready to pick another manager in the Summer in a considered process with a bigger pool to choose from.

The situation now is far far worse. Never mind anyone would be better than Wagner; no manager at all would be better than Wagner.

[S_81 805]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Ironically, the time for pragmatism was last season. At worst,  we would have seen through the season in an okay position under Smith ready to pick another manager in the Summer in a considered process with a bigger pool to choose from.

The situation now is far far worse. Never mind anyone would be better than Wagner; no manager at all would be better than Wagner.

I didn’t rate Smith. But I don’t rate Wagner either. The common denominator in both is Webber. Thank god he’s going. Problem is he’s not going quick enough. The only solution I can see to stop us sinking further toward the trouble zone is to let go of Wagner now -install an interim from within the club - and not let Webber anywhere near recruitment of the next perm manager. 

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,420]

1 hour ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

Webbers going, Wagner needs to go with him and the fans need to start letting the owners know this isn’t acceptable

Off you go then...

[littleyellowbirdie 2,559]

5 minutes ago, S_81 said:

I didn’t rate Smith. But I don’t rate Wagner either. The common denominator in both is Webber. Thank god he’s going. Problem is he’s not going quick enough. The only solution I can see to stop us sinking further toward the trouble zone is to let go of Wagner now -install an interim from within the club - and not let Webber anywhere near recruitment of the next perm manager. 

I get tired of the stupid straw man I get over Smith as LDC resorted to earlier on deflecting from his hang up over Farke. My argument was never that he was great, simply that he wasn't as bad as that, and it wasn't the case that 'anyone could do better than Smith'. The club sacked him because its hand was forced by the fans and we finished up worse off for it. Part of me is actually delighted to see a more phlegmatic outlook to the situation at the moment, I just wish it had appeared last year instead of this year.

Edited October 25, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Canarywary 107]

8 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Ironically, the time for pragmatism was last season. At worst,  we would have seen through the season in an okay position under Smith ready to pick another manager in the Summer in a considered process with a bigger pool to choose from.

The situation now is far far worse. Never mind anyone would be better than Wagner; no manager at all would be better than Wagner.

Is it THAT bad? If we'd played like this all season, with Sarge and Barnes fit the whole time, then I'd say yes, of course sack DW, but you're talking like we're 23rd and scoring no goals. How good did we look under Wagner until Sarge got crocked? (And no, before anyone says, I'm NOT happy with where we are right now, I'm just saying it's not panic stations, and saying 'no manager is better than Wagner' is hyperbole).

[Dr Greenthumb 750]

Just now, Wings of a Sparrow said:

Off you go then...

Unfortunately I cannot get to carrow road at present (personal issues), but thanks for reminding me I have a voice and can use it

[shefcanary 2,412]

15 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Let's have a manager who works his style to suit the players, not the other way around.

I agree that's what we need at the moment, but long term we need a manager that does both! A perfect scenario that few teams can ever succeed with long term with the same person, but this was what Webber originally promised. Maybe Knapper can deliver on this, let's hope he can.

However our club has financially to make the most of its Academy by the application of a philosophy throughout the club, with teams using a similar basic structure at junior levels whilst allowing a little more pragmatism in the first team at times where squad injuries reduce the ability to successfully compete with the same set-up. Ideally in time the aim is that as players get injured, the academy has produced a suitable replacement for the injured player to seamlessly continue with the structure.

Where we are now however is the result of a discontinuity in our academy over the past few years where the youngsters coming through were not good enough to fit into the sudden switch in structure under Webber / Farke from 4-2-3-1 to 4-3-3 in order to preserve the EPL status. This led to panic buys of youngsters that we not capable of delivering in the EPL straight away under Farke, a total mish mash under Smith, and now under Wagner as injuries have bitten the lack of youngsters experienced enough to play in his preferred structure. For this I blame Webber and the fact he listened to the noise being made by Talk****e and other pundits after our first campaign with Farke in the EPL.

Under Knapper, we need Attanasio and his team to support Knapper to develop this philosophy again. We also need fans to recognise it won't lead to immediate success, unless the up front recruitment and refresh of senior players and their subsequent freedom from injury is absolutely spot on.  

Just a dream? Well, we nearly got there, but injuries and a Sporting Dirctor who took frit and listened to the noise ****ed it up!

[S_81 805]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I get tired of the stupid straw man I get over Smith as LDC resorted to earlier on deflecting from his hang up over Farke. My argument was never that he was great, simply that he wasn't as bad as that, and it wasn't the case that 'anyone could do better than Smith'. The club sacked him because its hand was forced by the fans and we finished up worse off for it. Part of me is actually delighted to see a more phlegmatic outlook to the situation at the moment, I just wish it had appeared last year instead of this year.

Wagner arguably finished worse than Smith would have. And the early season promise this year, which was without doubt better than Smith football, has fast evaporated and we are back at a point of unenjoyable to watch and ineffective football. I hope the club show the same decisiveness with Wagner now as they did with Smith. But I expect it not to be the case - I think it will take a sadly sizeable loss at Ipswich to do the obvious. 

[S_81 805]

2 minutes ago, Canarywary said:

Is it THAT bad? If we'd played like this all season, with Sarge and Barnes fit the whole time, then I'd say yes, of course sack DW, but you're talking like we're 23rd and scoring no goals. How good did we look under Wagner until Sarge got crocked? (And no, before anyone says, I'm NOT happy with where we are right now, I'm just saying it's not panic stations, and saying 'no manager is better than Wagner' is hyperbole).

My god man, look at the form. Look at the tactics and the incompetent substitutions. This goes beyond Sarge and Barnes. When the latter got injured he’d been somewhat ineffective for a few weeks anyhow. That early season bounce is long gone. This really is relegation form now. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,559]

4 minutes ago, Canarywary said:

Is it THAT bad? If we'd played like this all season, with Sarge and Barnes fit the whole time, then I'd say yes, of course sack DW, but you're talking like we're 23rd and scoring no goals. How good did we look under Wagner until Sarge got crocked? (And no, before anyone says, I'm NOT happy with where we are right now, I'm just saying it's not panic stations, and saying 'no manager is better than Wagner' is hyperbole).

i think there's a legitimate question over sustainability. We had some epic performances last season when he first arrived, that dissolved into a really awful end to the season, largely down to injuries, but then again, balancing the workload on players so that they don't pick up too many injuries is also part of the job.

This season seems to have followed the same pattern.

Edited October 25, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,559]

6 minutes ago, S_81 said:

Wagner arguably finished worse than Smith would have. And the early season promise this year, which was without doubt better than Smith football, has fast evaporated and we are back at a point of unenjoyable to watch and ineffective football. I hope the club show the same decisiveness with Wagner now as they did with Smith. But I expect it not to be the case - I think it will take a sadly sizeable loss at Ipswich to do the obvious. 

To be honest, if nobody steps up to be a caretaker, then just leaving Wagner in post may be the lesser of the evils, but my God, you definitely can't blame fans for not bothering to turn up while he's still in post based on yesterday, or maybe even Leeds, although I have a little more sympathy with Wagner over Leeds.

[Making Plans 936]

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

Read it again. I didn't blame fans, I just said how a spiral of negativity isn't going to help us.

The spiral of negativity started at the top with the people who run this club by delaying the American's full involvement and then delaying Webber's departure.

Not surprisingly these unecessary delays, and subsequent uncertainty, has filtered down to the players and now further down to the supporters.

Nobody knows where this Club is at just now or where it's going. It's a shambles.

At the end of the day, the supporters are the only ones who fork out good money week after week to follow their club so if they don't like what they see then they have every right to express their views the best way they see fit.

 

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,559]

4 minutes ago, Making Plans said:

The spiral of negativity started at the top with the people who run this club by delaying the American's full involvement and then delaying Webber's departure.

Not surprisingly these unecessary delays, and subsequent uncertainty, has filtered down to the players and now further down to the supporters.

Nobody knows where this Club is at just now or where it's going. It's a shambles.

At the end of the day, the supporters are the only ones who fork out good money week after week to follow their club so if they don't like what they see then they have every right to express their views the best way they see fit.

 

 

We don't know that they are delaying it. For all we know this is the pace that suits Attanassio. He made it quite clear he wanted to get his feet under the table and get to understand the business from the outset.

Attanassio isn't just a wealthy guy interested in buying a club as a hobby. He's a bona fide sports businessman.

[king canary 7,613]

23 minutes ago, Canarywary said:

Is it THAT bad? If we'd played like this all season, with Sarge and Barnes fit the whole time, then I'd say yes, of course sack DW, but you're talking like we're 23rd and scoring no goals. How good did we look under Wagner until Sarge got crocked? (And no, before anyone says, I'm NOT happy with where we are right now, I'm just saying it's not panic stations, and saying 'no manager is better than Wagner' is hyperbole).

It is pretty bad.

We've got the joint most goals conceded in the League. It isn't sustainable to concede nearly two goals a game even with our best strikers fit. This is backed up by one of the worst xGa stats in the division, suggesting we're not just being a bit unlucky with teams taking their chances but we're consistently giving teams loads of opportunities to score. 

That has to be fixed and I'm not seeing any evidence Wagner knows how.

[Nuff Said 5,146]

1 hour ago, NFN FC said:

 

[ron obvious 1,513]

It would be interesting to see some stats about our form before we lost Sargent & Barnes compared to afterwards. I suspect they would be very different.

Everyone seems to think that taking injuries into account is an 'excuse' but that is palpably ridiculous.

Our early season formation clicked, & the players we have now do not. The good form may not happen even after those two return. That's how football goes sometimes. Incidentally I'd also be interested to see the collision that crippled Josh again. I did wonder at the time how much was accidental & how much deliberate.

[Nuff Said 5,146]

1 hour ago, S_81 said:

I think the latter. At this point I don’t think either the young coach we brought in or Neil Adams would be worse on a temporary basis than keeping Wagner in charge. It would also clear the decks so the new DoF didn’t have to make that choice - instead focussing on who comes next. 

Like most decisions in football, it’s a roll of the dice. No-one can know if it will be successful. On the one hand, Wagner is a known quantity, he has experience, and he has had *some* success in the Chamoionship. On the other, things are clearly not working and don’t seem to be improving. I’m glad it’s not my call to make.

[king canary 7,613]

Just now, ron obvious said:

Everyone seems to think that taking injuries into account is an 'excuse' but that is palpably ridiculous.

Injuries should be considered but they aren't the be all and end all. All teams suffer them, coaches need to deal with them.

In the 4 games we played pre his injury we took 10 points from 12 over 4 games. 2.5ppg.

Since he went out we've taken 7 points from a possible 27. So under 1ppg.

Obviously losing him hasn't helped. But firstly the 4 games with him is a very small sample size (we lost plenty of games with him in the team last season). 

And secondly losing one key player shouldn't lead to league winning form becoming relegation form. That it has is a failure on the part of the manager.

[Midlands Yellow 4,007]

A Friendly Friday could bring us together again. Leave it with me lads. 

[hogesar 9,702]

1 hour ago, S_81 said:

He’s not leaving soon enough. That’s the problem. 

I'm not hearing a single "Webber Out" at Carrow Road, presumably because everyone else knows he's going.

I don't see why we're ranting on here about the fact he's not gone yet. Had he left yesterday it would have had zero bearing on the result or performance. I think Knapper deserves opportunity in his own right and it's not as if Webber and Knapper won't be in regular comms right now. If Knapper want's rid and is intending to sack Wagner as soon as he's in place then I doubt it'd stop anything happening now.

[S_81 805]

12 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I'm not hearing a single "Webber Out" at Carrow Road, presumably because everyone else knows he's going.

I don't see why we're ranting on here about the fact he's not gone yet. Had he left yesterday it would have had zero bearing on the result or performance. I think Knapper deserves opportunity in his own right and it's not as if Webber and Knapper won't be in regular comms right now. If Knapper want's rid and is intending to sack Wagner as soon as he's in place then I doubt it'd stop anything happening now.

I’d suggest that Webber being there does have a bearing on whether Knapper asks for Wagner to be dismissed at this stage - or at any stage that Webber remains during handover. I imagine Webber’s relationship with Wagner also makes it less likely the latter is dismissed before Knapper starts. So I do see it as a key issue that leaves us in a limbo with regard to dismissing Wagner. 
 

Albeit I doubt very much that anyone at the club is giving genuine thought to doing so 

[pete 319]

Farke maybe have been a good coach and got the results required, but he was terrible at man management fell out at regular intervals.  Perhaps he was instrumental in the travails of Todd Cantwell which started to go wrong after the PL season in 2019/20 and got worse.