Simple Reason(s) Why Wagner WON'T Go

[BroadstairsR 2,185]

I agree about Pelach and accept the reputation accredited to him for his  coaching credentials.

BUT, if he is assistant coach at NCFC then he doesn't seem to have made much impact at the club considering the team's current performances.

Still. It's worth a punt as things could hardly get any worse without the Wagner presence. We might even have a new managerial revelation at the club just patiently waiting in the wings before revealing his true worth.

[Andy G 10]

Wagner won't go till January when his contract is up.
We won't pay to get rid when we only have a few months left.

It is also difficult to find someone else who would want to take on the job with us sat in the bottom half of the table, an aging demoralised squad and 0 funds to improve our position in January without selling one of our few assetts.

I also fear that if we rush we'll end up with another terrible journeyman like Dean Smith with the owners telling us "Well you asked for it"

I think January will at least give the new man a few months to hopefully make the right choice of replacement, stamping his influence on the club. but it does ultimately leave us in a bad place till then

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

6 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Can totally see your point, @littleyellowbirdie and @Nuff Said. It's probably immaterial anyway, as I think the most likely outcome is that we're stuck with Webber and Wagner until December. Would love to be wrong, but I think we're just marking time until Knapper gets his feet under the desk.

It's why I think Adams is ideal: Everyone will be happier with him than they are with Wagner, he's a known quantity, and he's not interested in the job on a permanent basis, which means he can just get on with it for now. If we carry on like this we're not going to be in touching distance of playoffs, so there's nothing to lose.

Given that I suspect it's just going to be toxic with Wagner in place, and not without good reason, I think this would be a good way forward.

Edited October 25, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Capt. Pants 4,262]

Russell was **** and the fact he isn’t working now possibly proves that point.

Pelach is damned if he does or damned if he doesn't. Who knows he might already be part of the problem.

He was linked with the Blackpool job before he came here but chose us. I can't for one moment think he would turn the opportunity down.

[BurwellCanary 216]

According to bettingodds the most recent (15)  managers to have been sacked had an average win ratio of 31.4% of games played

Wagner is 5 wins from 13 played = 38%

6 of those sacked had win ratios of 37% or better

So from a stats perspective he is near the end unless things change quickly

[Capt. Pants 4,262]

6 minutes ago, Andy G said:

Wagner won't go till January when his contract is up.
We won't pay to get rid when we only have a few months left.

It is also difficult to find someone else who would want to take on the job with us sat in the bottom half of the table, an aging demoralised squad and 0 funds to improve our position in January without selling one of our few assetts.

I also fear that if we rush we'll end up with another terrible journeyman like Dean Smith with the owners telling us "Well you asked for it"

I think January will at least give the new man a few months to hopefully make the right choice of replacement, stamping his influence on the club. but it does ultimately leave us in a bad place till then

That's not how a rolling 12 month contract works. He will always have 12 months to go, never more, never less.

[Old Shuck 185]

I'm looking for a piece I read not long after Knapper's appointment was confirmed where he said, I'm 90% certain, that he knew and had worked with Michael Beale in some capacity previously.

Which, not unnaturally, led me to the conclusion that Beale would be 'his man' or certainly an option if and when that scenario came into play.

And he's currently unemployed....

However, given Pelach's rising reputation and his own ambitions, I wonder if his coming here included a hint that he'd be considered for the top job if the situation arose.

If Wagner leaves, Buhler and maybe Hughes might go with him. But think Pelach is ring fenced.

 

[Andy G 10]

14 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

That's not how a rolling 12 month contract works. He will always have 12 months to go, never more, never less.

Thats exactly how a rolling contract works.
He has a renewal date that will be hit in January, and it will continue UNLESS one of the parties chose to terminate at that point.
So if we chose to part ways in January we don't owe him any pay off, we just part ways and his contract never rolls over for another year.

Here is how it is defined:

"The 12 Month Rolling Contract

This is a contract that is often mentioned in relation to managers and coaches of football clubs and is favoured because it allows a person to be employed for one season during which the fortunes of the club may change; promotion or demotion may, in the club’s eyes be tackled better with a new person in charge, for instance.

The 12 Month Fixed-term Contract is well understood by most people to be one that ends automatically when the season ends but many are confused when the word “Rolling” is included. Many users of social media have said that they interpret a 12 Month Rolling Contract to be a standard Indefinite-term contract as defined in the first section above and the notice period for either party is 12 months, rather than a more normal 30 days.

However, this is not the case: a 12 Month Rolling Contract is a 12 Month Fixed-term Contract, as defined in the second section above, that includes clauses under which each party can ask the other to renew it, or “roll it over”; either party can decide not to renew and there is no obligation on either side to pay compensation in such a case.

Thus, a typical Fixed-term Rolling Contract will normally include a date at which both parties should indicate whether they wish the contract to roll over at the termination date; this will often be set some months earlier than termination rather than being something like 30 days and allows each party sufficient time to find alternative employment or employees.
There is no limitation to what clauses can be added to such fixed-term rolling contracts and it is perfectly possible to add events such as promotion or relegation to the rollover decision.

Of course a normal Fixed-term Contract can be renewed when it ends but the benefit of the Rolling Fixed-term Contract is that both parties declare their intentions well in advance. Many a football manager/coach has been left in limbo until late in the season by indecisive club owners and Chairmen; the rolling contract helps to minimise this by allowing discussions between both parties to occur early and plans to be laid."

So as mentioned, if we wait till January and choose not to roll over his contract, he leaves in Jan and we're not out of pocket compensation wise.

[TheBaldOne66 693]

He won’t go cos we’ve got a **** for a Sporting Director working his notice and a gutless board. End of story. 

[shefcanary 2,435]

2 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

Also, are Andy Hughes and Pelach both first team coaches? It looks that way. How does that work?

I believe Hughes does the basic physical stuff (that is how to pass, run, head, tackle etc), whilst Pelach does the mental stuff (that is coaching players in how to approach the opposition positionally on the pitch, how to stop runs, how to press, etc. according to Wagner's structure). 

[shefcanary 2,435]

2 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

Maybe, but what has happened to Allan Russell, our ex-set piece coach who temporarily took the reins before Wagner came in? I don’t think it worked out too well for him, he’s had to emigrate to the US by the looks of things to get over the experience and still isn’t working.

I think there was the incentive to move there from his partner. 😉 

[repman 635]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

I believe Hughes does the basic physical stuff (that is how to pass, run, head, tackle etc), whilst Pelach does the mental stuff (that is coaching players in how to approach the opposition positionally on the pitch, how to stop runs, how to press, etc. according to Wagner's structure). 

Hughes is in charge of the set pieces I know that. When Pelach joined there was talk about his in possession coaching, some seem to think the deep build up shape that we saw early this year came from him. 

It's always hard to know how much input coaches are having but the fact our possession play looked so different from last year at least suggests he had some, however there's probably a bigger question mark on how much influence he has on addressing the new problems we face while Wagner's job isn't secure and our biggest issue seems to be the fact we give up too many chances. 

[Robert N. LiM 4,427]

15 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

There is such a thing as a caretaker manager.

Knapper's first job should not be to sack the manager. Webber created the mess and should do the decent thing. 

We had a respectful disagreement about this a couple of weeks ago but I have to say I'm coming round to your point of view.

Essentially I thought Wagner was already the caretaker manager, and that there was no point getting rid until the new guy is in place to make an appointment. 

But given Wagner's bizarre refusal to change the structure of the team (when it's obvious that's what the problem is), there does seem to be a point now.

I thought we were drifting, and we'd still be drifting with a caretaker in charge. But now we're sinking.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Robert N. LiM

[Robert N. LiM 4,427]

8 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Russell was ****

.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Robert N. LiM
thought better of it

[Nuff Said 5,149]

1 hour ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Personally I'd introduce the phrase 'a piece of' into this assessment. 

Why? Did he park in your space or something?

[king canary 7,624]

5 hours ago, Andy G said:

Thats exactly how a rolling contract works.
He has a renewal date that will be hit in January, and it will continue UNLESS one of the parties chose to terminate at that point.
So if we chose to part ways in January we don't owe him any pay off, we just part ways and his contract never rolls over for another year.

Here is how it is defined:

"The 12 Month Rolling Contract

This is a contract that is often mentioned in relation to managers and coaches of football clubs and is favoured because it allows a person to be employed for one season during which the fortunes of the club may change; promotion or demotion may, in the club’s eyes be tackled better with a new person in charge, for instance.

The 12 Month Fixed-term Contract is well understood by most people to be one that ends automatically when the season ends but many are confused when the word “Rolling” is included. Many users of social media have said that they interpret a 12 Month Rolling Contract to be a standard Indefinite-term contract as defined in the first section above and the notice period for either party is 12 months, rather than a more normal 30 days.

However, this is not the case: a 12 Month Rolling Contract is a 12 Month Fixed-term Contract, as defined in the second section above, that includes clauses under which each party can ask the other to renew it, or “roll it over”; either party can decide not to renew and there is no obligation on either side to pay compensation in such a case.

Thus, a typical Fixed-term Rolling Contract will normally include a date at which both parties should indicate whether they wish the contract to roll over at the termination date; this will often be set some months earlier than termination rather than being something like 30 days and allows each party sufficient time to find alternative employment or employees.
There is no limitation to what clauses can be added to such fixed-term rolling contracts and it is perfectly possible to add events such as promotion or relegation to the rollover decision.

Of course a normal Fixed-term Contract can be renewed when it ends but the benefit of the Rolling Fixed-term Contract is that both parties declare their intentions well in advance. Many a football manager/coach has been left in limbo until late in the season by indecisive club owners and Chairmen; the rolling contract helps to minimise this by allowing discussions between both parties to occur early and plans to be laid."

So as mentioned, if we wait till January and choose not to roll over his contract, he leaves in Jan and we're not out of pocket compensation wise.

Huh, you learn something new every day. I thought the same as @Capt. Pants so appreciate the knowledge. 

[king canary 7,624]

Just now, king canary said:

Huh, you learn something new every day. I thought the same as @Capt. Pants so appreciate the knowledge. 

Also, considering Knapper starts in November I'd be surprised if the club refuse to back him in getting rid in order to save one months compensation. 

[Cityfc2 4]

18 hours ago, JB said:

For me, the game was the final straw in terms of my faith in Wagner at the helm. Other threads have handled, and are handling what he is doing wrong, so I won't go into those aspects again, but I believe he won't go regardless of how bad he is, or how much he's lost the dressing room etc. This is because of Knapper coming in soon and he will ultimately determine his fate. Knapper will be seeing all of this now and I suspect he will move Wagner on once his reign starts, but before then, there is no logic for Webber to get rid. He is leaving so likely doesn't care too much any more, but if he was to remove Wagner, who's he bringing in for what could well be extremely short-term until Knapper comes in and wants his own man in the job? To me, it just wouldn't make any sense for a Sporting Director who is about to leave, to sack a manager and source a replacement he'll have nothing to do with in a few months. 

Unfortunately, we'll be waiting a lot longer than we'd like for managerial/coaching changes, is how I'm seeing things.

They can quite easily talk to each other, Webber sacks him  and Knapper chooses replacement, simple really !!!

[duke63 543]

Jack Wilshere - you heard it here first!

[essex canary 497]

6 hours ago, Andy G said:

Thats exactly how a rolling contract works.
He has a renewal date that will be hit in January, and it will continue UNLESS one of the parties chose to terminate at that point.
So if we chose to part ways in January we don't owe him any pay off, we just part ways and his contract never rolls over for another year.

Here is how it is defined:

"The 12 Month Rolling Contract

This is a contract that is often mentioned in relation to managers and coaches of football clubs and is favoured because it allows a person to be employed for one season during which the fortunes of the club may change; promotion or demotion may, in the club’s eyes be tackled better with a new person in charge, for instance.

The 12 Month Fixed-term Contract is well understood by most people to be one that ends automatically when the season ends but many are confused when the word “Rolling” is included. Many users of social media have said that they interpret a 12 Month Rolling Contract to be a standard Indefinite-term contract as defined in the first section above and the notice period for either party is 12 months, rather than a more normal 30 days.

However, this is not the case: a 12 Month Rolling Contract is a 12 Month Fixed-term Contract, as defined in the second section above, that includes clauses under which each party can ask the other to renew it, or “roll it over”; either party can decide not to renew and there is no obligation on either side to pay compensation in such a case.

Thus, a typical Fixed-term Rolling Contract will normally include a date at which both parties should indicate whether they wish the contract to roll over at the termination date; this will often be set some months earlier than termination rather than being something like 30 days and allows each party sufficient time to find alternative employment or employees.
There is no limitation to what clauses can be added to such fixed-term rolling contracts and it is perfectly possible to add events such as promotion or relegation to the rollover decision.

Of course a normal Fixed-term Contract can be renewed when it ends but the benefit of the Rolling Fixed-term Contract is that both parties declare their intentions well in advance. Many a football manager/coach has been left in limbo until late in the season by indecisive club owners and Chairmen; the rolling contract helps to minimise this by allowing discussions between both parties to occur early and plans to be laid."

So as mentioned, if we wait till January and choose not to roll over his contract, he leaves in Jan and we're not out of pocket compensation wise.

So why did Moxey leave with more compensation than salary?

[duke63 543]

23 minutes ago, essex canary said:

So why did Moxey leave with more compensation than salary?

Because the whole point of it is it runs for 12 months at which point both sides can not renew. But if the employer ends the contract early them compensation will be due otherwise why would an employee agree to a 12 month rolling contract in the first place?

[Making Plans 936]

If we can sack Farke in the dressing room immediately after a win away from home in the PL then sacking Wagner now after 6 losses in quick succession should be a no brainer.

[Channon’s Windmill 327]

I suspect we are probably waiting for the next win, then sack him after the post match press conference. Probably safe for this weekend.

[Robert N. LiM 4,427]

3 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

Why? Did he park in your space or something?

Just think that this is a really sh*tty thing to do:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57109401

But as I suspect you're suggesting, there's nothing to be gained by just insulting people online. So I'm going to delete the original post. Cheers.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Robert N. LiM

[Nuff Said 5,149]

3 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Just think that this is a really sh*tty thing to do:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57109401

But as I suspect you're suggesting, there's nothing to be gained by just insulting people online. So I'm going to delete the original post. Cheers.

I’d forgotten that, if I ever knew it in the first place. You’re right, it’s not ok, but people make mistakes. Fortunately it appears no-one was hurt.