The reality of the situation.

[hogesar 9,766]

49 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I think the biggest problem will be trying to remain patient and open minded while we work out our best starting 11 and the players learn how to play together in a competitive setting. I still see a lot of over expectation on here with people assuming we'll be competing for the top 6. Before we can contemplate that, we need to find our feet having basically been in free fall at the end of last season. Fans getting on the players' backs early could totally undermine the efforts to bring Wagner's tactics to fruition. 

The underlying concern that some of us have is that it takes a certain level of vision and skill to convert a high turnover into a goal. It's all very well pressing high and winning the ball, but you have to be able to pick that final pass and make the crucial run behind. I fear that we are filling those advanced positions with players who lack the ability to create and score goals. I very much hope to be wrong about this.

Whatever happens we will have to do our best to get behind the team, especially if it doesn't start well.

 

Very fair, balanced post.

[Michael Starr 522]

unlocking those mid to lower end teams in the championship, especially at home will be the make or break of us. Not how we compete with the top teams. Can we break them down. I'm quietly slightly more confident now than I was a month ago.

[Robert N. LiM 4,544]

4 hours ago, Ulfotto said:

stop being such a soft touch

I would really just settle for this to start with

[Robert N. LiM 4,544]

2 hours ago, BigFish said:

There is no room for a sitting CDM in the way we are setting up for the season.

given that we never seem able to sign one that's just as well

[Robert N. LiM 4,544]

5 hours ago, Captain Holt said:

Again, I am a negative person - no problems admitting that. But, I'm willing to give everyone a chance. I do fear the cauldron of Carrow Road is ready to bubble over and a few setbacks early doors should see to that. But this gobby internet mouth will try his hardest not to be a bubbler.

Never mind the f'ing danger.

Captain

Enjoyed this post a lot - cheers. Haven't seen a minute of pre-season (don't you lot know the Ashes is still on?!) so can't comment on whether I agree with you or not. But I like the sound of it.

But now Boris Johnson has been unceremoniously dispatched, can we drop the phrase 'oven-ready'? Made me do a bit of sick in my mouth.

[norfolkngood 1,092]

53 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I don't think our high-press would be that effective if one of the key midfielders dropped deep sitting to mop up. The opposition would always have the extra pass on. 

I guess that's why Wagner wants two 8's instead.

No idea if it'll work, mind.

we will see if it works , they will all have to be doing it unless it falls apart as seen so often if only half the team do it ,

i think smart teams with fast forwards invite the press ,

players push up CB's are high leaving massive gap in behind  then by-pass the press with longer direct ball ,

That is how leicester used to do so well with Vardy ,

i suppose like anything successful the good teams find a way to counteract  it ,

same for zonal marking at corners works for some teams and not others ,

[Capt. Pants 4,297]

I'm neither positive or negative but say it as it is. Nor have I seen much of pre season.

I like what we've done with incomings and believe that net we have a stronger squad. Can Wagner stay focused on delivering improvement ,or will he just panic on a game by game basis (e.g QPR away) like he did last season?! Don't know yet.

My expectations are mediocre but likewise I'm looking forward to the new season. 

For me Wagner needs to show he can take the club forward in a sustainable way. I hope he can as he seems a decent man, but then so was Smith. We don't have a large number of new players to integrate and hardly a playing style that's foreign to this group of players. We'll know quite quickly.

I'm looking forward to when the real games start.

 

[wcorkcanary 4,347]

2 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Enjoyed this post a lot - cheers. Haven't seen a minute of pre-season (don't you lot know the Ashes is still on?!) so can't comment on whether I agree with you or not. But I like the sound of it.

But now Boris Johnson has been unceremoniously dispatched, can we drop the phrase 'oven-ready'? Made me do a bit of sick in my mouth.

What's ' The Ashes? Is it a bit like the Archers? 

We have the ' Clash of the Ash' over here , exciting stuff.  

Edited July 26, 2023 by wcorkcanary

[ged in the onion bag 857]

16 hours ago, hogesar said:

I don't think our high-press would be that effective if one of the key midfielders dropped deep sitting to mop up. The opposition would always have the extra pass on. 

I guess that's why Wagner wants two 8's instead.

No idea if it'll work, mind.

You may be right there but I do think that will not suit McLean.    He impressed some fans last season in the deeper role primarily as he had a lot more time on the ball.   He won’t get that time in the centre and he’s not a natural CDM either so I still expect our defence to be over exposed and our full backs less inclined to overlap.  

[hogesar 9,766]

8 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

You may be right there but I do think that will not suit McLean.    He impressed some fans last season in the deeper role primarily as he had a lot more time on the ball.   He won’t get that time in the centre and he’s not a natural CDM either so I still expect our defence to be over exposed and our full backs less inclined to overlap.  

I could be wrong but I think in-possession Mclean will take up that deeper role still more often than most. At least, i've seen signs of that in pre-season. Out of possession he's then expected to push up and partner the other number 8 in the press.

Mclean generally speaking has the engine to do it but what we don't know yet is how good as a team we're going to be at this high-press. We saw times last season where we hideously exposed an entire 3rd of the pitch because we couldn't maintain it and left huge gaps for opposition to pass into. Clearly Wagner thinks he's got players more capable and with the fitness required to do it so let's wait and see!

[Jim Smith 2,345]

I’m quietly optimistic. The key will be the midfield and whether we can find the right blend. On the face of it 5 from Fassnacht, Nunez, Sara, Onel, Sainz, Kenny, Gibbs, Sorensen and Tzolis playing behind Sargent or Barnes looks to provide good options, especially as Barnes can also play in the deeper role. M

Stacey looks like he gets forward, as does Dimi so the full backs should provide more threat this season. Max has stopped being the same threat in the last 2 years other than the occasional exceptional game. 

[S_81 889]

We still desperately need a holding mid. The game passes McClean by and puts too much pressure on our defence. The weakness is glaring and I really hope they’re working on a transfer to address it. 

[Number9 272]

17 minutes ago, S_81 said:

We still desperately need a holding mid. The game passes McClean by and puts too much pressure on our defence. The weakness is glaring and I really hope they’re working on a transfer to address it. 

No CDM and no creative number 10 apparently. Putting it all on hard, fast, organised pressing. 

It's gonna end in tears.

[S_81 889]

4 minutes ago, Number9 said:

No CDM and no creative number 10 apparently. Putting it all on hard, fast, organised pressing. 

It's gonna end in tears.

The No10 issue we may get away with between Sara and Barnes, but the DCM issue is glaring and will be disastrous 

[hogesar 9,766]

7 minutes ago, Number9 said:

No CDM and no creative number 10 apparently. Putting it all on hard, fast, organised pressing. 

It's gonna end in tears.

A number 10 isn't the only way of playing football...

[BigFish 1,988]

34 minutes ago, S_81 said:

We still desperately need a holding mid. The game passes McClean by and puts too much pressure on our defence. The weakness is glaring and I really hope they’re working on a transfer to address it. 

 

15 minutes ago, Number9 said:

No CDM and no creative number 10 apparently. Putting it all on hard, fast, organised pressing. 

It's gonna end in tears.

 

10 minutes ago, S_81 said:

The No10 issue we may get away with between Sara and Barnes, but the DCM issue is glaring and will be disastrous 

 

7 minutes ago, hogesar said:

A number 10 isn't the only way of playing football...

It is, if your entire football knowledge is based on playing Sunday League in the Eighties

[Robert N. LiM 4,544]

14 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

What's ' The Ashes? Is it a bit like the Archers?

I never know if you're joking, but in case you're serious, the Ashes is a series of cricket matches between the old enemies England and Australia. It is a bit like the Archers in that it goes on for ages and never really ends.  This summer's series of five games has been particularly gripping (albeit spoiled a bit by rain in the last game). The final game of the series starts today at the Oval in London, conveniently finishing before the football season starts. There's a whole thread on it if you want to find out more.

https://forum.pinkun.com/index.php?/topic/152799-ot-the-ashes/#comments

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by Robert N. LiM

[hogesar 9,766]

2 minutes ago, BigFish said:

 

 

 

It is, if your entire football knowledge is based on playing Sunday League in the Eighties

Sheffield United generally played a 3-5-2 all season without playing a numbr 10. Ndiaye can play there but he was actually up top with McBernie generally. 

Luton sometimes played that way too, although did sometimes play with Campbell as a number 10 but even then he only got 2 assists all season.

So really only Burnley of the promoted sides played with a natural number 10 who regularly impacted the game (Browhill). 

[Robert N. LiM 4,544]

20 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

That's what gets you in the end

But it's also the reason we keep coming back for more. Nice to see some optimism on this thread. As Petriix said, hopefully it can be allied to some patience. It would be nice if CR was a fun place to be this season - feels like a while....

 

[canarybubbles 1,947]

Even I, as one of the forum's miserabilists, felt some twinges of hope in the third quarter of the Toulouse game. We had been dour but compact and combative in the first two quarters, and suddenly there were some signs of creativity in the third. I know the opposition played a lot of young players at the end but the introduction of Sara and Fassnacht and the contributions of Fisher on the right, Nunez in the centre, and Gianoullis and Tzolis on the left meant that we created at least four good chances as well as the two we scored.

I'm still wary of unbeaten pre-seasons, though.

 

[BigFish 1,988]

30 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Sheffield United generally played a 3-5-2 all season without playing a numbr 10. Ndiaye can play there but he was actually up top with McBernie generally. 

Luton sometimes played that way too, although did sometimes play with Campbell as a number 10 but even then he only got 2 assists all season.

So really only Burnley of the promoted sides played with a natural number 10 who regularly impacted the game (Browhill). 

I was agreeing with you @hogesar and diagreeing with the other two.

Most teams play without specialist CDMs and No 10s preferring a more fluid approach.

[S_81 889]

3 minutes ago, BigFish said:

I was agreeing with you @hogesar and diagreeing with the other two.

Most teams play without specialist CDMs and No 10s preferring a more fluid approach.

Generally, every successful team has someone in central mid who can tackle, protecting the defence. We don’t. 

[hogesar 9,766]

3 minutes ago, S_81 said:

Generally, every successful team has someone in central mid who can tackle, protecting the defence. We don’t. 

Burnley only had one player who made over 2 tackles a game and that was Brownhill with 2.1

Sorensen makes 1.9 Tackles per game, so really small difference.

Their DMC options were Cullen and Cork who both made the same amount of tackles per game as Mclean did for us last season, with Mclean making slightly more interceptions than Cork per game.

[S_81 889]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Burnley only had one player who made over 2 tackles a game and that was Brownhill with 2.1

Sorensen makes 1.9 Tackles per game, so really small difference.

Their DMC options were Cullen and Cork who both made the same amount of tackles per game as Mclean did for us last season, with Mclean making slightly more interceptions than Cork per game.

A fair example, and a sign of what can be done if the rest of the side works as a unit and is competent enough. 
Given the sum of our parts I still think we need a better DCM option than we have right now 

Edited July 27, 2023 by S_81

[BigFish 1,988]

8 minutes ago, S_81 said:

Generally, every successful team has someone in central mid who can tackle, protecting the defence. We don’t. 

But not a specialist CDM

[S_81 889]

2 minutes ago, BigFish said:

But not a specialist CDM

I’d argue that the best teams do actually. But granted that it’s a tricky position to fill. 

[hogesar 9,766]

1 hour ago, S_81 said:

A fair example, and a sign of what can be done if the rest of the side works as a unit and is competent enough. 
Given the sum of our parts I still think we need a better DCM option than we have right now 

You could be right, but it sounds like club / manager thinks they can make it work without 

[It's Character Forming 1,167]

18 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Enjoyed this post a lot - cheers. Haven't seen a minute of pre-season (don't you lot know the Ashes is still on?!) so can't comment on whether I agree with you or not. But I like the sound of it.

But now Boris Johnson has been unceremoniously dispatched, can we drop the phrase 'oven-ready'? Made me do a bit of sick in my mouth.

Funny, I was thinking exactly the same...

[It's Character Forming 1,167]

23 hours ago, Captain Holt said:

I am a negative person. You will not be shocked to read that if you have read one of my posts in the last twelve months. I need to say the following:

The 40 minutes we had last night in the third period are the most exciting signs I've seen since the Coventry game, despite the youthful Toulouse side we were up against.

We had creativity, nous, flair and accuracy with what we were trying to do. It left me thinking that with Sara, Nunez and most interestingly, Tzolis (cutting in from the left to fill the half space pockets and positively impact the game) we might be on to something, I hope they don't sell Tzolis - I'm convinced there is a player in there. 

We look as if we should be as defensively solid as any Norwich side I can remember in recent history. I alluded to in the match thread. Not many Championship clubs would baulk at the idea of Duffy, Gibson and Hanley being the senior centre backs in the squad.

Kellen Fisher is giving off serious 18/19 Max Aarons vibes and looks oven ready. 

Sargent will score goals IF he has enough chances created for him. He is a decent finisher - not on the Teemu level but he will score different goals - accurate, meaningful crossing is a must. I really, desperately want Adam Idah to do well. I hope one goes in off his **** against Hull and he goes on to score 20.

If Aarons, Rashica and Omobamidele do leave - we will re-invest and dare I say be stronger for it (if our boy Stu spends it well...this window looks to be one of his hits so far - to his credit).

Again, I am a negative person - no problems admitting that. But, I'm willing to give everyone a chance. I do fear the cauldron of Carrow Road is ready to bubble over and a few setbacks early doors should see to that. But this gobby internet mouth will try his hardest not to be a bubbler.

Never mind the f'ing danger.

Captain

 

--------------

@littleyellowbirdie

@hogesar

From where can I collect my badge?

Good post.  It's only pre-season but at least we are seeing some positive signs.

[mrD66M 106]

20 hours ago, hogesar said:

I don't think our high-press would be that effective if one of the key midfielders dropped deep sitting to mop up. The opposition would always have the extra pass on. 

I guess that's why Wagner wants two 8's instead.

No idea if it'll work, mind.

This is where I see Nunez wavering a bit. Sara is a more natural 8, Nacho is more suited as a 10.