Webber

[Ulfotto 660]

Smith was simply carrying too much baggage from last season. The issues of out of control expectations, totally lack of a defensive midfield and fragile confidence have not gone away.

The squad is stuffed with players whose potential ability massively outweighs there current output.

On Webber if you ask me and it is an odd thing to say the problems started in 18/19 when we won promotion. That season and the decision to basically take the money and get relegated the next have led us to where we are now. It might have been better in the long term to do what Leeds did and lose in the playoffs then get promoted in the lockdown season keeping the squad in tack and then we might have had a chance of staying up.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Ulfotto

[Tetteys Jig 831]

In all honesty, the club might as well give up and fold

[Inch High aka Inchy.. 412]

14 minutes ago, Kingston Yellow said:

The irony

Point out the irony then for me.

[norfolkngood 1,095]

18 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

I'm not sure that Attanasio knows any better because his knowledge of 'soccer' has been fed to him by Webber. But if I were him and likely to be investing millions/tens of millions into the playing side, I'd be a bit nervous handing that over to Webber tbh. I realise the scouting/recruitment team are also to blame but at this point in time I'm really struggling to be positive about any of our current acquisitions.

The Sort of point i was making 

if you are stone broke like we were Webber was the man 

since then something must have changed as we are not buying the same type or quality 

the Emi money proved he is not the man to be handed millions just not what he was used to and it showed 

 

[Robert N. LiM 4,651]

9 minutes ago, Ulfotto said:

On Webber if you ask me and it is an odd thing to say the problems started in 18/19 when we won promotion. That season and the decision to basically take the money and get relegated the next have led us to where we are now. It might have been better in the long term to do what Leeds did and lose in the playoffs then get promoted in the lockdown season keeping the squad in tack and then we might have had a chance of staying up.

Agree with this. We got promoted both too soon and too late under Farke. The stars need to align, and they didn't.  That's not to exonerate Webber from criticism, just to say that fate plays a part too. The 20-21 Championship team, plus Godfrey and Lewis, who wouldn't have left if they hadn't had a year in the shop window, would have had a very good chance of staying up had we gone up in 19-20.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

30 minutes ago, WD40 said:

There you go then, coming on 5 years. It was that window the last time anyone decent was signed permanently. 

It's all the same players we had a couple of weeks ago when we won 4-2 and everyone was over the moon.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

4 hours ago, WD40 said:

I hear from Galatasaray fans they really like Rashica so maybe we get our money back there. 

Their price cap in recent years seems to be about £5m for a player.

So I personally doubt we'll be getting full whack back, but I'd snap their hand off for £5m for that chap.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

4 hours ago, Helsinki canary said:

He pis..d over 40mil up the wall, Gibson crap, Tzolis Crap, Raschica Crap, Gianoulis crap , Sargent average, crocked and awful loans wee billy etc he has to finally be held to account, shocking recruitment 

I'll give him a pass on Sargent. 

He'll be our number 9 next season and will prove a good centre forward.

I'll just about give him a pass on Angus Gunn, although I'm not convinced we got a great deal of value there, if his surname wasn't Gunn I'm sure we could have recruited similar for half the price.

Beyond that his transfer business has been dreadful since 2018.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

3 hours ago, Foxy2600 said:

we have some players that put in a shift, we have some other highly paid ones that are baggage and make up the numbers. Not Smiths fault, not Webbers fault and certainly not Wagners fault . 

Of course it is Webber's fault.

We've recruited terribly and therefore have had to resort to using squad players out of position this season.

Placheta £2.5m, Tzolis £8m, Rashica £8m, or something in that range. Looking at almost £20m on three wingers and then we end up with squad filler Sinani out wide, Dowell playing out of position, Sargent pegged out on the right at times being wasted.

We've got people bashing Kenny McLean for some of his performances, when he's being asked to play a deeper role because for the second consecutive season we've signed a crock on loan to play DM.

And the £8m Brazilian we purchased isn't a terrible player, but if English and playing for Preston would probably fetch about £2m on the market.

It is entirely Webber's fault, we've spent a fortune, wasted on various foreign gambles, and failed to pull together a competitive Championship squad. He should be sacked.

Ward should be given an ultimatum, sack Webber of we will sack you.

Happy to keep Wagner though, none of this is his fault.

Edited February 11, 2023 by TeemuVanBasten

[Unthink road 132]

2 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I'll give him a pass on Sargent. 

He'll be our number 9 next season and will prove a good centre forward.

I'll just about give him a pass on Angus Gunn, although I'm not convinced we got a great deal of value there, if his surname wasn't Gunn I'm sure we could have recruited similar for half the price.

Beyond that his transfer business has been dreadful since 2018.

A pass. Absolutely he has been woeful. I give up with the give him a chance squad. Tried to explain to a younger fan at the ground, we had a great youth system before the Webber era. Let this man carry on we're doomed. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

2 minutes ago, Unthink road said:

A pass. Absolutely he has been woeful. I give up with the give him a chance squad. Tried to explain to a younger fan at the ground, we had a great youth system before the Webber era. Let this man carry on we're doomed. 

I think you may have misunderstood my point. I wasn't giving Webber any praise at all, I was giving the Sargent and Gunn signings a pass.

I was saying that the Sargent and Gunn signings were OK. I'll add Rupp to that, perfectly capable all rounder.

Pretty much every other permanent signing since 2018 has been dreadful. Trust me, this wasn't praise.

Edited February 11, 2023 by TeemuVanBasten

[hogesar 9,808]

2 minutes ago, Unthink road said:

A pass. Absolutely he has been woeful. I give up with the give him a chance squad. Tried to explain to a younger fan at the ground, we had a great youth system before the Webber era. Let this man carry on we're doomed. 

How many young players made there way into the first team in the 5 years prior to Webber as opposed to the 5 years since?

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

14 minutes ago, hogesar said:

How many young players made there way into the first team in the 5 years prior to Webber as opposed to the 5 years since?

That's not a massively fair comparison as clearly harder to break into a mid-table Premier League side, which is what we were for 2 of those years and what we've never been under Webber.

We utilised our youth players massively to rise from League One to the Premier League, but rising three levels in three years is always going to see the club progress too quickly for some players, even Chris Martin who has undoubtedly been a Championship stalwart ever since. Korey Smith and Tom Adeyemi were two who were victims of our success but both important to our turnaround before both having Championship careers.

But Declan Rudd, Josh Murphy, Jacob Murphy, as a starting point.

And its always a bit awkward to point out that out of Jamal Lewis, Jacob Murphy, Josh Murphy, Ben Godfrey, and James Maddison, the young players that have been sold by Webber for large sums since arriving, none of them were brought to the club by Webber. And when Max Aarons leaves he hasn't discovered him either.

Omobamidele shows glimpses of big money potential, and Liam Gibbs looks at least Championship quality. but McCallum and Idah, both Webber signings, one for allegedly pretty big money, I can't see either of them ever being more than half decent Championship players in all honesty. Meanwhile, Harry Toffolo the Webber reject, who was swiftly ditched in favour of James Husband of all people, is now a Premier League player.

Edited February 11, 2023 by TeemuVanBasten

[nutty nigel 7,656]

1 hour ago, Tetteys Jig said:

In all honesty, the club might as well give up and fold

Because we lost at Bristol City?

 

[Unthink road 132]

12 minutes ago, hogesar said:

How many young players made there way into the first team in the 5 years prior to Webber as opposed to the 5 years since?

Fzzzk me how many years have you followed city. I take it politely not many. We have produced many a player before Webber, who I am proud as as a City fan who have up to the standard. You are a fair fan, and I respect your opinion and I think you see the best in our club, but I feel you are wrong

👍

[Unthink road 132]

20 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I think you may have misunderstood my point. I wasn't giving Webber any praise at all, I was giving the Sargent and Gunn signings a pass.

I was saying that the Sargent and Gunn signings were OK. I'll add Rupp to that, perfectly capable all rounder.

Pretty much every other permanent signing since 2018 has been dreadful. Trust me, this wasn't praise.

I get you, sorry bud. Times up on Webber. Football people I know believe so to. 

[hogesar 9,808]

9 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

That's not a massively fair comparison as clearly harder to break into a mid-table Premier League side, which is what we were for 2 of those years and what we've never been under Webber.

We utilised our youth players massively to rise from League One to the Premier League, but rising three levels in three years is always going to see the club progress too quickly for some players, even Chris Martin who has undoubtedly been a Championship stalwart ever since. Korey Smith and Tom Adeyemi were two who were victims of our success but both important to our turnaround before both having Championship careers.

But Declan Rudd, Josh Murphy, Jacob Murphy, as a starting point.

And its always a bit awkward to point out that out of Jamal Lewis, Jacob Murphy, Josh Murphy, Ben Godfrey, and James Maddison, the young players that have been sold by Webber for large sums since arriving, none of them were brought to the club by Webber. And when Max Aarons leaves he hasn't discovered him either.

Omobamidele shows glimpses of big money potential, and Liam Gibbs looks at least Championship quality. but McCallum and Idah, both Webber signings, one for allegedly pretty big money, I can't see either of them ever being more than half decent Championship players in all honesty. Meanwhile, Harry Toffolo the Webber reject, who was swiftly ditched in favour of James Husband of all people, is now a Premier League player.

Well let's not do the prior 5 years. Pick 5 years where we were championship regulars and then league one? How many young players did we develop from the academy during that point? I remember us being vaguely excited by a Kris Renton who i think offered nothing more than Kings Lynn in the end. Oh, Rossi Jarvis and Spillane too. 

It doesn't matter who signed these young players. The young players signing for an academy has always been a thing, let's look at how the club actually makes use and develops them as useful for the first team. 

Maybe you can prove me wrong but I don't remember any other time in our history where we have developed the likes of Cantwell, Godfrey, Lewis, Godfrey, Maddison to a point some of them are making 10s of millions of pounds of revenue for the club. Even comparatively when taking into account the increase in transfer spend.

[hogesar 9,808]

8 minutes ago, Unthink road said:

Fzzzk me how many years have you followed city. I take it politely not many. We have produced many a player before Webber, who I am proud as as a City fan who have up to the standard. You are a fair fan, and I respect your opinion and I think you see the best in our club, but I feel you are wrong

👍

I'm 30 so you can work it out from there.

Of course we've produced players long before Webber. When is the last time our club was able to make circa £100m from developing relative unknowns into Premier League players? We might not like it but it's been a vital part of modern football and pretty much a necessity for us to have continued to compete at the levels we have done without external funding.

That doesn't mean he hasn't got transfers wrong by the way.

[vos 155]

3 hours ago, Hucks6 said:

Perhaps with a bit of luck when the Americans get hold of city they will sack him because Delia hasn’t got the B—-s to do it

I think you might be right there!!!!!

[Unthink road 132]

24 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I'm 30 so you can work it out from there.

Of course we've produced players long before Webber. When is the last time our club was able to make circa £100m from developing relative unknowns into Premier League players? We might not like it but it's been a vital part of modern football and pretty much a necessity for us to have continued to compete at the levels we have done without external funding.

That doesn't mean he hasn't got transfers wrong by the way.

It’s all relevant. Sutton and Bellamy today would have cost a lot. 100m on who? Don't include Maddison as from people I know, he was accepted as gone before Webber. That's just outgoings which I accept a club like ours is run. Today's showing seemed to back up most away support, that it is poor. Again I respect your opinions and support. We need to all get behind the team, but this is a very average squad assembled at a big cost for a club like ours. Unfortunately your age probably suggests you didn't witness what better sides we have had on smaller budgets at a higher level before. So tell me who was better at recruitment? 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

58 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Well let's not do the prior 5 years. Pick 5 years where we were championship regulars and then league one?

Well if we pick 2006/07 to 2010/11 which is a 5 year run out of the Prem

The thing is though, what Webber has been really good at is getting great prices for some players who frankly aren't anything special. I mean, Josh Murphy is now in League One, Jamal Lewis is deadwood at Newcastle and will clearly be heading to the Championship when he's finished getting paid loads at Newcastle. Even Ben Godfrey, who is clearly a good player, is looking at Championship football next season. Todd Cantwell has gone to the SPL where I'm sure he'll look good, but just can't see him going from there to the Prem.

And I do fear actually that Webber has made his own job harder by squeezing so much money out of players who haven't gone on to show that they were worth the outlay. Credit where credit is due, to get £15m for Jamal Lewis, and £11m for Josh Murphy, and £10m for Pritchard, all amazing business. I do fear that will make other clubs somewhat weary of lumping big money on a Norwich player in the future though, only James Maddison has gone on to achieve great things, and Ben Godfrey got an England cap or two didn't he (Jacob Murphy to give him his dues did end up being alright at Newcastle). 

But anyway, from that five years:

Joe Lewis, Chris Martin, Korey Smith, Tom Adeyemi, Jed Steer, Declan Rudd, are probably the only players who proved over their careers to be Championship standard. And yeah, three of them are keepers. So not a great period of productivity at all.

However, with Ben Godfrey and James Maddison having been signed for seven figure fees I'm not sure they really count. Obviously if you spend £4m on a teenage midfielder you expect them to break through.

Jamal Lewis, Jacob Murphy, Josh Murphy are the youth products we've flogged under Webber, but are any of them really Premier League standard? Jacob Murphy is the best of the three, I'd 100% have him back here now, but I'd be hugely underwhelmed if we got promoted and he was the best player we signed, even as the team who keeps finishing 20th.

Idah, Gibbs, Rowe, Mumba, etc have it all left to prove in respect of whether they'll have better careers than the likes of Rudd, Smith, Martin. I think most players coming through would be delighted to finish up having a CV (and presumably bank balance if he hasn't been silly) like Chris Martin's to be honest, Championship stalwart and scored on his debut at 34 today for QPR. 

What I struggle to come to terms with is the lack of appreciation for the fact that a few months before leaving our club McNally spent £1m and £4m on two English teenagers, one from League Two and one from League One, both of whom are now England Internationals, and who achieved combined transfer fees of £50m with more likely on the way through sell on clauses. A third player signed for a fee in that same window was Ebou Adams, from Dartford, who Webber discarded, now back in the Championship with Cardiff on a three year deal and an international player (unfortunately seriously crocked as soon as he joined Cardiff, very unlucky).

Whatever we were doing with our lower league scouting and recruitment at that point in time under McNally, lets return to that, because that was just extraordinary business. It feels like our lower league scouting only stretches as far as Suffolk, where we've pinched a couple from Ipswich. If we could extend that all the way back up to York then it would be interesting to see who else we could pinch; feels like a better strategy than taking a punt on Greeks and Brazilians at this point. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by TeemuVanBasten

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

When is the last time our club was able to make circa £100m from developing relative unknowns into Premier League players?

James Maddison was about as far away from being a complete unknown as possible, was widely accepted to be a massive coup landing that signing as he was expected to sign for Liverpool or Tottenham and our agreement to loan him back to Coventry to wrap the deal up in mid-season was crucial in Coventry's decision to accept our offer.

McNally signed 19 year old James Maddison, Stuart Webber signed 19 year old Christos Tzolis. Clearly one doesn't know what they are doing. I suspect the problem may lie in the fact that David McNally actually played the game of football to a high non-league level, and Stuart Webber just played lots of Football Manager.

Edited February 11, 2023 by TeemuVanBasten

[repman 640]

My biggest problem with Webber is that he has twice in a row picked managers he seems to get along with on a personal level. Not to say that the relationship between him and the manager should be good, but I think with him it seems like maybe they feel indebted to him for the job (both coming off failures). This also leads to them being afraid to speak out per se on transfer matters. In return however he deferred to Smith plenty, both Hayden and Ramsey were picked by Smith and also of course he kept him in the job a month longer than he should have at the very least.

[chicken 2,677]

7 hours ago, Kingston Yellow said:

You’re making our point for us. Moron. Conflict of interests. They’re both failing but no one to hold them to account.0

I'm afraid the moron is you.

Nowhere did I say there wasn't a conflict of interest. However, that would depend upon how the policies and procedures work in regards to the set up. Most companies have very strict rules around conflicts of interest when it comes to family/relatives. Mainly because otherwise, it can leave them open for all kinds of issues.

To clarify, I was correcting the error of incorrect order of events. In response you took a dive off the deep end, missed the pool, hit every diving board and then try to claim something without evidence - eg a conspiracy theory.

By all means though, carry on. 

[chicken 2,677]

7 hours ago, Channon’s Windmill said:

I thinks we have gone full circle now and we are exactly where we were when Webber arrived, yes we have a vastly improved training environment, but other than that we have little to show for those two seasons at the top table. We now have an ageing squad on the decline with little resale value and no money to spend on the massive squad change that is needed. I feel we are in for a good few seasons in the Championship, hovering around mid table. Webber really should go, but he won’t , it’s all too comfortable at the club.

Improved academy too, better working model of club in terms of being self sustaining.

First of all, when Webber first arrived our squad was worse than the one we have now, certainly in depth and arguably in quality, and it was aging more than this one is currently. A lot of players in and around 30, many moved on that summer or in the following January.

Arguably in fact, it wasn't until the following season that we assembled a squad that is certainly better than the one we have now - at least, in terms of success on the pitch. I'm still not sure about actual quality all over the pitch.

The one thing people seem to not discuss is genuinely how much harder the market has become. If you dare mention that the pool of players we can look at has shrunk you get told you are exaggerating. But the reality is this. Since we are now governed by the post Brexit point system, no European 2nd tier is open for us to buy from. The only exception is if there is a player in the 2nd tier who has played enough games for a high enough FIFA ranked international side to get points that way.

It is also true to say that outside of around half a dozen, give or take, European top tiers - the others don't meet the criteria either. For example Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Some folks seem to think this is mitigated by other nations in North, Central and South America now being "easier" to recruit from. This is somewhat arguable in itself, after all, there is a long history of South American's moving to the continent - Messi and Buendia - before this whilst we were in the EU.

Moreover, the top leagues have been mining those areas for young talent for decades. Ronaldinho was 21 when PSG brought him to Paris. Robinho was also 21 when he was taken from Santos to Real Madrid. Neymar was, guess what? 21 when he moved from Santos to Barcelona. And the list goes on. Brazilians at various levels of European football is not new. Neither is seeing Chilean footballers, Mexican, Columbian, US or Canadian footballers especially.

However, the reality is that it is also fair to say that the footballing/soccer culture isn't as strong, certainly in Canada and the United States, to produce a steady stream of players. Nor is the MLS even considered that good a league - and it covers all of North America - that's over 350million people.

In other words, the model that worked for us so well when Webber arrived has changed, and we're not the only club to be struggling with it. It's just that we actually operate with less backing from ownership than a good number of other sides.

I am pretty sure that last time round in the championship, when we bounced back to the premier league, we were in the bottom 5 in terms of owners wealth. That impacts on things like supplementing wage budgets and means we have to play much truer to the line we have to cut our cloth by. 

At the same time, players in the EFL have seen their price increase too. Both because of "homegrown" rules and also because of them becoming a more desirable asset now that we are shopping in a smaller pool abroad, and ones that have less comparable approaches, styles and facilities to that of the UK, as compared to those in Europe who do.

 

[chicken 2,677]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

James Maddison was about as far away from being a complete unknown as possible, was widely accepted to be a massive coup landing that signing as he was expected to sign for Liverpool or Tottenham and our agreement to loan him back to Coventry to wrap the deal up in mid-season was crucial in Coventry's decision to accept our offer.

McNally signed 19 year old James Maddison, Stuart Webber signed 19 year old Christos Tzolis. Clearly one doesn't know what they are doing. I suspect the problem may lie in the fact that David McNally actually played the game of football to a high non-league level, and Stuart Webber just played lots of Football Manager.

Was it McNally that scouted and made the decision to sign Godfrey and Maddison? Or was that a different set up where the ultimate decision came down to the manager?

Maddison wasn't "about as far away as being a complete unknown as possible" - massive exaggeration. The links to Liverpool or Tottenham was all fan talk, I can say that pretty confidently as neither of those clubs came in for him when he was eventually sold. Neither of them have shown an interest in him since he moved to Leicester and Newcastle appear to be the first serious suitors for him. That's not to say he is rubbish, but we had him for two seasons, one of which he played very little football for us.

Equally, comparing players just by age is, well, poor. If you want to go there, Omobamidele was signed at age 16/17 in 2019. Liam Gibbs was 18. What's more, it's worth noting that whilst Maddison, Godfrey, Aarons, Lewis plus the likes of Cantwell were all at the club prior to Webber arriving, it is equally fair to say their game time had been minimal. It was the change in philosophy to get much more out of our academy than we had previously been getting that meant a move to give youth more of a chance.

We saw in that first season under Farke that Maddison was more than capable and should have been used a lot more under Alex Neil who repeatedly insisted he was not ready, despite, as you say, making 40+ appearances by the time he was 19 for Coventry. Similar could be said of Godfrey. Aarons was unheard of, as was Lewis - unless you were an avid watcher of our youth fixtures perhaps.

Equally, Tzolis was a gamble, was identified as a gamble, and was said to be one for the future. The biggest issue with him, was not his stats which made him a very interesting prospect that other teams were no doubt looking at too, but that the very valid argument that we were not really in a position to spend such a chunk on a player who was unlikely to be able to contribute heavily to that season. We simply were not in a position with the squad we had to take that gamble at that time, IMHO. He has talent, whether we will see the best period in his career remains to be seen.

[The Bunny 314]

5 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's all the same players we had a couple of weeks ago when we won 4-2 and everyone was over the moon.

Your point is that we won two games and so the other 28 don't count? 

[Unhinged Canary 375]

11 hours ago, Mello Yello said:

The dilution of the webberlution.....

It does appear that you CAN fool the children of the webberlution.

[Unhinged Canary 375]

8 hours ago, Newtopia said:

I was being sarcastic - the other option was to flap my arms in the air and shout we are all doomed.

Ahh, it's just not the same without Lapps about.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

3 hours ago, The Bunny said:

Your point is that we won two games and so the other 28 don't count? 

I thought that was everybody else's point a couple of games back?