Parma’s State of the Nation

[hogesar 9,787]

9 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Daniel Farke has himself today spoken:

’“With Norwich, let’s be honest, I had one go a few years ago, with all respect I loved my players and I loved the club and Norwich will always be a big, big part of my CV and my history and we had amazing players who gave everything for the club, but if we’re really honest, it was not a Premier League side,” 

And then we sell Buendia? And buy Tzolis and Sargent and Rashica for £30m instead?

I am quite happy to accept that Webber had difficult choices to make to square the self-sufficiency circle. But it just didn’t come close to working did it?

In actual fact post Buendia-Skipp it’s all been about as poor as it could conceivably have been hasn’t it?

And now we buy in old sweats and lags to stop us sinking further. 

The worst thing about that is that it is probably right for our current circumstances.

And then Webber moves on.  And Farke goes to Leeds. 

 

Parma 

Well, let's be clear - Farke is referring to the first Prem season. Interestingly, he very much avoids discussing his second attempt.

[hogesar 9,787]

2 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

 

Which, btw, now seems more likely than promotion. We also have a serious gap in the main striker department and no budget to plug that gap. Barnes is not a replacement for peak Pukki. Yet when I point this out I am just attacked for being miserable- a realist more like! 

The bookies rely on being right to make money and they hugely disagree with you - I wonder why?

[king canary 7,695]

I do rather feel this 'old lags' part is a bit overdone. 

We've signed 4 players aged 22, 27, 31 and 33 respectively. Average age of 28. Hardly clearing out the nursing home.

I'd imagine Webber and co believe the next round of young players who may raise good fees if we don't go up are already here. Gibbs, Mumba, Sargent, Sainz, any of these have a very good season and we can be asking for 8 figures. 

I actually prefer adding players like Barnes who clearly address needs that we have (leadership, physicality) than adding players like Dowell who were just lesser versions of what we already had and with little resale value due to their ceiling being pretty obvious. 

[hogesar 9,787]

8 minutes ago, king canary said:

I do rather feel this 'old lags' part is a bit overdone. 

We've signed 4 players aged 22, 27, 31 and 33 respectively. Average age of 28. Hardly clearing out the nursing home.

I'd imagine Webber and co believe the next round of young players who may raise good fees if we don't go up are already here. Gibbs, Mumba, Sargent, Sainz, any of these have a very good season and we can be asking for 8 figures. 

I actually prefer adding players like Barnes who clearly address needs that we have (leadership, physicality) than adding players like Dowell who were just lesser versions of what we already had and with little resale value due to their ceiling being pretty obvious. 

Yeah, I'd said this elsewhere:

On 03/07/2023 at 13:02, hogesar said:

Rowe

Gibbs

Omobamidele

Tzolis

Mumba

Sainz

Idah

McCallum

Nunez

Sargent

Sara

Are all under 24 and in-and-around the first team squad.

 

Of the players we have signed this window:

 

Duffy and Barnes are over 30.

Stacey is 27

Mainz is 22

Reyes is 19

Forsyth is 16.

 

So this new rhetoric that we are selling young players and only signing old players with no resale value or potential is completely made up in people's heads. It's weird.

I don't deny we've signed more experience than in other windows under Webber but we've had experience to replace...

[Monty13 2,267]

23 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Well, let's be clear - Farke is referring to the first Prem season. Interestingly, he very much avoids discussing his second attempt.

I thought that was very interesting, he was clearly referencing his first PL season. I’ve often wondered if Farke was disillusioned that second season. He came across overly negative IMO, but in hindsight I wonder if that was a restrained frustration at the position he was in.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,417]

2 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I thought that was very interesting, he was clearly referencing his first PL season. I’ve often wondered if Farke was disillusioned that second season. He came across overly negative IMO, but in hindsight I wonder if that was a restrained frustration at the position he was in.

I’ve heard rumours that he asked for three high quality players but instead the board sold Buendia and purchased a whole raft of lesser players and had a clear out. One can understand how this might have left him frustrated - it broke the spirit and vision and left us trying to compete with a poor squad. That was the window of doom- so many bad decisions made and awful sales and purchases 

[king canary 7,695]

9 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I thought that was very interesting, he was clearly referencing his first PL season. I’ve often wondered if Farke was disillusioned that second season. He came across overly negative IMO, but in hindsight I wonder if that was a restrained frustration at the position he was in.

I think we'll always have to look back at that first season as a huge missed opportunity. We had a young team high on momentum and confidence who approached it fearlessly but were let down by a lack of reinforcements in key positions. I honestly feel two or three really good signings could have made all the difference. 

[ged in the onion bag 862]

6 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

I still think the real issue is having owners who have clung to power far too long- mainly with good intentions and too much sentimentality - causing the club to stagnate and now decline. They belong to a different era. I still wonder if they hamper a proper takeover as they won’t relinquish control? 
 

The bottom line is lack of investment is what forced our hand so that we sold Buendia and replaced with lesser standard players instead of adding one or two more Buendia standard players on serious wages whilst keeping him too- that is what was needed to cement our place. See Brentford etc as examples of how it is done. Keep your best and add a couple. But we lacked ability to offer serious wages and went straight for bargain basement 
 

As Parma notes we really have slid since then in the most shocking way - only previous successes mask that- with almost no positives. Recruitment has been woeful and we are now having to sign journeymen with no resale value to shore up the team and avoid relegation to L1.
 

Which, btw, now seems more likely than promotion. We also have a serious gap in the main striker department and no budget to plug that gap. Barnes is not a replacement for peak Pukki. Yet when I point this out I am just attacked for being miserable- a realist more like! 

here is hoping the old battlers galvanise us and youth come good- otherwise it will be another long season. The tail end of the last one should have rung serious alarm bells for even the most clapping fan- but no-  they just make excuses about injuries etc as if they don’t happen at other clubs.

We were in relegation form for the last third of last season with a manager who looked clueless with tactics and substitutions. And we are now betting the house on ageing free signings and hoping that manager- who failed his audition and who failed at last two clubs- suddenly comes good.

people will argue we are yet to finish buying players- but only after selling our best ones. Let’s cross fingers for another miracle as happened when we signed Pukki and Emi. Because the slide needs to be halted

off field we seem in limbo. The plan has been ripped up- there doesn’t seem to be a vision to replace it and the takeover isn’t what most fans are pretending. Investment remains a problem. 

My hope is Sarge comes of age and remains injury free- a more realistic proposition than Idah ever doing so. Yet Barnes didn’t come here to warm the bench. Time will tell. It’s the hope that kills you. OTBC 

They aren’t presidents, they don’t ‘cling to power’.    They own the club, make decisions and aren’t voted out.   
 

We haven’t stagnated either since we’ve tried various methods, the latest being the Webberlution!    
 

We've regressed only recently primarily due to mistakes (lots of them), not lack of funds or ambition.    

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

4 hours ago, Monty13 said:

I thought that was very interesting, he was clearly referencing his first PL season. I’ve often wondered if Farke was disillusioned that second season. He came across overly negative IMO, but in hindsight I wonder if that was a restrained frustration at the position he was in.

If this is how he felt about our quality promo season 1, how do you think he felt when he faced promo season 2 without Buendia and Skipp?

We don’t need to guess. Farke has given us the answer. 

In football-speak he has already said far more than is common. 

Leeds wouldn’t sell their Buendia at the point of promotion. It hasn’t ever happened at that level of club and it won’t ever. 

As Farke also said ‘we chose to sell Buendia’. Let me be absolutely clear that he meant the Royal ‘we’ there. He never, ever wanted it. 

Parma 

[hogesar 9,787]

13 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

If this is how he felt about our quality promo season 1, how do you think he felt when he faced promo season 2 without Buendia and Skipp?

We don’t need to guess. Farke has given us the answer. 

In football-speak he has already said far more than is common. 

Leeds wouldn’t sell their Buendia at the point of promotion. It hasn’t ever happened at that level of club and it won’t ever. 

As Farke also said ‘we chose to sell Buendia’. Let me be absolutely clear that he meant the Royal ‘we’ there. He never, ever wanted it. 

Parma 

To be fair Farke also never, ever wanted Pritchard sold and unknown Emi Buendia coming in. Just for balance 🙂 

[ged in the onion bag 862]

29 minutes ago, hogesar said:

To be fair Farke also never, ever wanted Pritchard sold and unknown Emi Buendia coming in. Just for balance 🙂 

Better the devil at the time…. He did then go on to set up the team for Buendia and many others to thrive.    I’m not convinced Wagner can or will do that just yet.   

[Monty13 2,267]

40 minutes ago, hogesar said:

To be fair Farke also never, ever wanted Pritchard sold and unknown Emi Buendia coming in. Just for balance 🙂 

Pritchard was a talented player in a squad lacking it at that time, he didn’t have anywhere near the influence Buendia had on our fortunes. He may have wanted to keep both but that doesn’t make them equally as important.

[Monty13 2,267]

1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

They aren’t presidents, they don’t ‘cling to power’.    They own the club, make decisions and aren’t voted out.   
 

We haven’t stagnated either since we’ve tried various methods, the latest being the Webberlution!    
 

We've regressed only recently primarily due to mistakes (lots of them), not lack of funds or ambition.    

I think this is true, we obviously have a ceiling under the current ownership but we are where we are right now because of the poor decisions made working within the limitation’s of our operating model, not because of it.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Monty13

[king canary 7,695]

1 hour ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

If this is how he felt about our quality promo season 1, how do you think he felt when he faced promo season 2 without Buendia and Skipp?

We don’t need to guess. Farke has given us the answer. 

In football-speak he has already said far more than is common. 

Leeds wouldn’t sell their Buendia at the point of promotion. It hasn’t ever happened at that level of club and it won’t ever. 

As Farke also said ‘we chose to sell Buendia’. Let me be absolutely clear that he meant the Royal ‘we’ there. He never, ever wanted it. 

Parma 

Interesting to see how it'll work if they do reunite at Leeds.

It seems like that summer they had very different ideas of which direction they should go in and Webber chose his way, a way that ended with Farke out of job 11 games in. 

I wonder if, post his leaving, Webber has ever spoken to him and indicated that he accepts he was wrong? Maybe a willingness to be more collaborative moving forward? Or is it simply blamed on financial constraints that won't be present at Leeds?

[hogesar 9,787]

1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Better the devil at the time…. He did then go on to set up the team for Buendia and many others to thrive.    I’m not convinced Wagner can or will do that just yet.   

 

1 hour ago, Monty13 said:

Pritchard was a talented player in a squad lacking it at that time, he didn’t have anywhere near the influence Buendia had on our fortunes. He may have wanted to keep both but that doesn’t make them equally as important.

Yes but remember at the time, the context of Webber assuring him someone better would be coming in is important.

And there's absolutely no doubt that Buendia is incredibly more talented than Pritchard evidenced by their careers since.

[Monty13 2,267]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

 

Yes but remember at the time, the context of Webber assuring him someone better would be coming in is important.

And there's absolutely no doubt that Buendia is incredibly more talented than Pritchard evidenced by their careers since.

Well yes, but he didn’t and couldn’t assure him anyone even close to as good as Buendia was going to come in.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Interesting to see how it'll work if they do reunite at Leeds.

It seems like that summer they had very different ideas of which direction they should go in and Webber chose his way, a way that ended with Farke out of job 11 games in. 

I wonder if, post his leaving, Webber has ever spoken to him and indicated that he accepts he was wrong? Maybe a willingness to be more collaborative moving forward? Or is it simply blamed on financial constraints that won't be present at Leeds?

I have stated elsewhere that Farke was (too) collegiate. 

He was very susceptible to ‘the good of the club’ line. He believed in a more holistic approach to football and had been a sporting Director and fully accepted realpolitik limitations. 

I have also stated previously that the unlamented Smith - wilier and harder-bitten - would have made selling Buendia a more back-me-or-sack-me moment. Farke ultimately went with it. He has certainly learned that lesson now, as he states in his opening address to Leeds fans (ouch again).

The ‘good of the club’ line is of course the absolute crux here. This is where it is quite fair to assess motivations and what weight was applied to what part of the rationale. 

We are taking about possibly once-in-a-generation moment of real money to spend. 

And we did what we did. 
 

If we don’t analyze this particular moment empirically and critically - and want to move on, back the new dawn, wave scarves and not think about such things, I totally respect that. That’s fine too. Though this all looks very much like the Shakespearean fulcrum that was predicted. The action is turning on these particular actions, decisions and moments in time. Indeed Time - and Farke, Webber, Attanasio, relegations, lack of cash, lack of points, lack of second tier success, lack of squad asset value -  is showing the importance of these very moments. As it has a habit of doing. 

Parma 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[Serinus Canaria Domestica 45]

Suspect DF has already made a misstep. Asking Leeds fans to be humble? Not a chance. I lived there for 5 years and the crowd were always entitled. When things were not great and the Directors box emptied early the anger and spite were palpable from us plebs on the terraces…..

[Dean Coneys boots 1,417]

16 hours ago, king canary said:

Interesting to see how it'll work if they do reunite at Leeds.

It seems like that summer they had very different ideas of which direction they should go in and Webber chose his way, a way that ended with Farke out of job 11 games in. 

I wonder if, post his leaving, Webber has ever spoken to him and indicated that he accepts he was wrong? Maybe a willingness to be more collaborative moving forward? Or is it simply blamed on financial constraints that won't be present at Leeds?

I suspect it will be a simple conversation:

Webber: good news Daniel. We are no longer hampered by lack of investment. If we go up we will be able to have a sensible wage structure to get the three or four quality players you wanted last time.
 

farke: yes, loved that club but the ownership and lack of investment meant we would never break the glass ceiling. 
 

webber: exactly 

 

[Captain Holt 522]

Stuart Webber without doubt had the biggest part to play in the single biggest failure this club has experienced in the last 25 years. I include the league one relegation in that, particularly in terms of the golden opportunity 21/22 gave us to literally change the club’s future for the most part of ever. Yes, League one meant serious financial difficulty but realistically it wouldn’t have made much difference in how we were operating financially at that time anyway.

Stuart Webber also played a major, major role in the biggest, most impressive success this club has had in the last 30 years. 2018/19 must never be forgotten, nor romanticised and dwelled upon for too much longer if we want to be anything different to that old stickler - “little old Norwich”

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

6 minutes ago, Captain Holt said:

Stuart Webber without doubt had the biggest part to play in the single biggest failure this club has experienced in the last 25 years. I include the league one relegation in that, particularly in terms of the golden opportunity 21/22 gave us to literally change the club’s future for the most part of ever. Yes, League one meant serious financial difficulty but realistically it wouldn’t have made much difference in how we were operating financially at that time anyway.

Stuart Webber also played a major, major role in the biggest, most impressive success this club has had in the last 30 years. 2018/19 must never be forgotten, nor romanticised and dwelled upon for too much longer if we want to be anything different to that old stickler - “little old Norwich”

I think that’s a very strong viewpoint. 

Parma 

[Paul101 94]

On 06/07/2023 at 13:12, ged in the onion bag said:

They aren’t presidents, they don’t ‘cling to power’.    They own the club, make decisions and aren’t voted out.   
 

We haven’t stagnated either since we’ve tried various methods, the latest being the Webberlution!    
 

We've regressed only recently primarily due to mistakes (lots of them), not lack of funds or ambition.    

Pretty much people struggle with the concept of ownership

 

its  a little like someone you know not liking how you did the garden and expecting you to give the house away

[KeiranShikari 1,480]

On 06/07/2023 at 08:45, hogesar said:

Well, let's be clear - Farke is referring to the first Prem season. Interestingly, he very much avoids discussing his second attempt.

Yup, not much to love in the second batch of players..

[PurpleCanary 5,599]

On 04/07/2023 at 23:58, PurpleCanary said:

Norfolk county motto: “Du different.”

Unnamed Norwich City director at job interview: “Do you think our fans would be happy with your brand of football?” Neil Warnock: “You mean winning football?”

Dialogue from Wesker’s Roots: “Who do you think’ll win today?” “Well Norwich won’t won’t.” “No.”

 

And even more apt, from Norfolk poet John Skelton (c1463-1529):

"O City, what of thee can now be said?
A few fair things survive that thou hast bred;
All life is brief, and frail all man's estate.
City, farewell; I mourn thy cruel fate."

Edited July 10, 2023 by PurpleCanary

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,243]

7 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

And even more apt, from Norfolk poet John Skelton (c1463-1529):

"O City, what of thee can now be said?
A few fair things survive that thou hast bred;
All life is brief, and frail all man's estate.
City, farewell; I mourn thy cruel fate."

‘Reports of my death are greatly exaggerated’ ?

Parma

[wcorkcanary 4,355]

1 hour ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

‘Reports of my death are greatly exaggerated’ ?

Parma

'I told them I wasn't well '

Spike Milligan.

[Nuff Said 5,211]

15 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

'I told them I wasn't well '

Spike Milligan.

Also Spike Milligan:

 

O little Flo,

I love you so.

Especially in your nightie.

When the moonlight flits,

Across your t**s,

O Jesus Christ almighty.

 

Irrelevant I know, but probably one of the few poems I can recite from memory.

 

Edit: it might not be Spike Milligan after all. Shows what I know.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Nuff Said

[The fog came down..! 4]

22 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Also Spike Milligan:

 

O little Flo,

I love you so.

Especially in your nightie.

When the moonlight flits,

Across your t**s,

O Jesus Christ almighty.

 

Irrelevant I know, but probably one of the few poems I can recite from memory.

 

Edit: it might not be Spike Milligan after all. Shows what I know.

Derek and Clive?

[wcorkcanary 4,355]

33 minutes ago, The fog came down..! said:

Derek and Clive?

Lobsterisimusbummikisimus. 

[Nuff Said 5,211]

11 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Lobsterisimusbummikisimus. 

Worst job I ever had