Dean Smith assessment after 10 games...

[Branston Pickle 3,657]

1 hour ago, Indy said:

Funny that, apathy even after 7 games unbeaten! Why is that?

Even the takeover which on paper should be exciting is all a little underwhelming! Seams a little long winded……..but great to get fresh ideas into the club.

Strange position to be in, surely there should be an buzz around the club?

I think it would be the same whatever/whoever was in charge whatever the results had been - we seem to still have a hangover from the up-down-up-down of the last few seasons that is proving hard to shake off. 

[Virtual reality 707]

18 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

I think it would be the same whatever/whoever was in charge whatever the results had been - we seem to still have a hangover from the up-down-up-down of the last few seasons that is proving hard to shake off. 

In my opinion the reality that we can’t compete in the PL makes the championship campaign equally pointless. The end result being another very likely humiliating season. That excitement for promotion probably won’t return until we have another extended stay in the championship or significant investment. Neither look too likely to happen. 

[Indy 3,300]

21 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

I think it would be the same whatever/whoever was in charge whatever the results had been - we seem to still have a hangover from the up-down-up-down of the last few seasons that is proving hard to shake off. 

I must admit I did notice a very subdued atmosphere where the Coventry fans were far more noisy than our own and where when I had my season ticket back 7 years ago there would be a response from the Barclay or snake pit it didn’t come even when we were winning the game.

I’m not missing not going every home game I must admit.

[hogesar 9,671]

1 hour ago, Pyro Pete said:

I'll just leave this here..

 

Eww, you're using facts again.

According to several on this forum they are to be completely ignored 🙃

[Virtual reality 707]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Eww, you're using facts again.

According to several on this forum they are to be completely ignored 🙃

If turgid football is what’s required to get us promoted and keep us in the PL then there can be no doubt we have the best man for the job 👍

[ron obvious 1,502]

41 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

I think it would be the same whatever/whoever was in charge whatever the results had been - we seem to still have a hangover from the up-down-up-down of the last few seasons that is proving hard to shake off. 

I found that possibility a worry in yesterday's game. We looked jaded - exemplified by Teemu - & not really that bothered. Hope it was just a blipette.

[hogesar 9,671]

7 minutes ago, Virtual reality said:

If turgid football is what’s required to get us promoted and keep us in the PL then there can be no doubt we have the best man for the job 👍

If turgid football = being second in the table and third highest scorers in the league, without a recognised left back and holding midfield, I think pretty much every other club in our division would take that.

[astro 360]

1 minute ago, ron obvious said:

I found that possibility a worry in yesterday's game. We looked jaded - exemplified by Teemu - & not really that bothered. Hope it was just a blipette.

Yeah, Teemu really did look disinterested yesterday. Late on, there was a chance in the box where he shot and really ought to have passed as the keeper was right on him, and then there was a hoofed clearance that he didn’t bother getting anywhere near unitil it had bounced several times. January may see him move on. 

[astro 360]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

If turgid football = being second in the table and third highest scorers in the league, without a recognised left back and holding midfield, I think pretty much every other club in our division would take that.

This team, even with its issues in two positions on the pitch, should be where we are AND be playing decent football. We haven’t played a decent half yet. Were you honestly entertained yesterday? 

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Teemu did run back half the length of the pitch to win the ball back as seen in previous champ seasons. It fired up the crowd a bit which until then only the ref seemed able to do. But Teemu's game is about bursts of pace and I'd sooner he used them attacking in the final third.

[ron obvious 1,502]

9 minutes ago, astro said:

Yeah, Teemu really did look disinterested yesterday. Late on, there was a chance in the box where he shot and really ought to have passed as the keeper was right on him, and then there was a hoofed clearance that he didn’t bother getting anywhere near unitil it had bounced several times. January may see him move on. 

😬😬🙄😒 Not saying a word.

[Capt. Pants 4,234]

I don't think Teemu likes Sargent getting in the way tbh. Plus our totally inept midfield created nothing for him.

[Virtual reality 707]

15 minutes ago, hogesar said:

If turgid football = being second in the table and third highest scorers in the league, without a recognised left back and holding midfield, I think pretty much every other club in our division would take that.

Strange as I remember our fan base being very anti Hughton with his turgid football that kept us in the PL in his first season

[Branston Pickle 3,657]

12 minutes ago, astro said:

Yeah, Teemu really did look disinterested yesterday. Late on, there was a chance in the box where he shot and really ought to have passed as the keeper was right on him, and then there was a hoofed clearance that he didn’t bother getting anywhere near unitil it had bounced several times. January may see him move on. 

That’s rubbish about being disinterested- it was his shot that was deflected in for the goal, and he chased back more than once to cover breaks.   It was only one game ago that people were lauding him for rediscovering his form.

[Branston Pickle 3,657]

28 minutes ago, astro said:

This team, even with its issues in two positions on the pitch, should be where we are AND be playing decent football. We haven’t played a decent half yet. Were you honestly entertained yesterday? 

It wasn’t the best game yesterday, but that is not totally down to us.  Imo there were 3 main reasons.

- WBA were intent on spoiling for an hour after they scored - that goal was the worst thing for the game as a spectacle. But that’s not to moan at them as it’s their job. They have now drawn 7 league games, showing how hard they are to beat when ‘on’ it; their defeat midweek will have concentrated their resolve. 

- The ref never got on top of the time wasting - 1 min of added time in the first half merely underlined how they had got away with it so they did it even more. 

- We weren’t totally ‘on’ it which was disappointing, it’s hard when effectively up against two banks of 5, but we should be better than we were.

 

[chicken 2,624]

Ricardo said recently that he doesn't understand the claims of entitlement... I think it's all laid bare by Petriix.

Only one team is doing better than us at this current time and just three points better off.

In comparison to our previous two Championship winning campaigns we are doing comparatively if not better in terms of goals scored, goals conceded, points... Yet that's not enough, it has to be more. I'm not sure there is any other way to describe it other than a vendetta. Especially when attached with a "we should never have sacked Farke" despite that being the overwhelming call on here at points in the first 11 games of last season. Even more so when Farke's shortcomings are blamed on Webber.

So Dean Smith has primarily had a squad of Farke era players. We're not a club who can turnover an entire squad, or even half of it in one transfer window.

If we can be brutally honest at this point, it is that we have players involved this season who were not deemed good enough to be playing in our first team regularly under Farke two seasons ago. Hugill and Hernandez were non starters. Yes, ok, they are not better than Pukki and Buendia, but in the case of Hernandez, he wasn't seen as better than Cantwell, Dowell and arguably Placheta either for those wide positions.

Then you have the likes of Sinani and McCallum. One we all thought we had possibly seen the last of at the start of last season in Sinani. Deemed to be no better than Placheta or Hernandez and loaned out with an option to buy. McCallum was so good we started the season sending him out on loan despite only having Quintilla as the single recognised left back.

Why bring all of this up? People were very much saying some of this at the time and during that season, let alone the premier league season and even now.

Smith has them all in his squad. He's also added Gibbs, Rowe, Tomkinson and Springett from the U23's. And as everyone is keen to add, he doesn't have the likes of Buendia in this squad.

Midfiled has been our biggest single issue since Farke arrived, and the team behind recruitment, of which both Webber and Farke, and now Smith, are part of, failed to address that issue adequately since his arrival. In fact, arguably his best success was initially when he signed players like Vrancic, Stiepermann, Trybull and Leitner. He actually cast out Tettey initially, something he admitted on several occasions. Loans of Reed and Skipp were also helpful. However, essentially, all of the permanent signings were eventually deemed not even good enough for the championship bar Vrancic and Stiepermann - who became more of an unorthodox No.10.

Lees-Melou was Farke's personal pick last season and whilst he looked good in flashes, he wasn't interested in a season in the championship.

At this point you look at what our squad was at the start of the summer before adding any new signings, but including departures.

GK: Krul, Gunn, McGovern.
RB: Aarons, Byram.
CB: Hanley, Gibson, Omobamidele, Tomkinson.
LB: Gianoulis, McCallum.
CM: McLean, Sorensen.
Wing/AM: Cantwell, Dowell, Hernandez, Sinani, Rowe, Springett.
STR: Pukki, Sargent, Idah, Hugill.

We've added Nunez, Hayden, Ramsey and Sara.

Ramsey and Nunez have already started to make an impact. Sara may take more time, which is fine, we should expect that not all foreign players coming to Europe or England to play football for the first time will be instant hits. Nunez is more the exception to the rule. Fan favourite Vrancic certainly had many, many critics in his first season.

What am I saying here? We're still in transition, still a work in progress. In many ways it is unfair to compare to either promotion seasons under Farke as in both instances he had more than one season behind him at the helm with us. Both squads were very much his. Not to mention Buendia played in both of those campaigns and Skipp played in one.

A balanced view would be, in my opinion:

Whilst at times Farke could impress his passing philosophy on our championship sides, he always struggled to do the same in the premier league. During our first premier league season with him at the helm, he won much plaudits for the approach from pundits etc, though in many ways it means very little as we were relegated. Whether you crash in a Jaguar or a Ford Fiesta makes no real difference, it's still a write off at the end of the season.

Last season, for me, Farke was fearful of making the same mistakes so tried to change it up. It very clearly didn't work, wasn't working and only looked better when he returned to the 4-2-5-1. Despite all of that, the one thing that needed to be improved, that remained to require improvement from the first promotion season, was addressing our inability to stop teams scoring. Set pieces were a particular curse. The truth is we were never particularly well organised defensively under Farke. That didn't matter in the championship as we could outscore teams, out pass teams, it mattered in the premier league when we were not guaranteed to score more goals.

And then there is that rarity of coming back from behind to win games, and his apparent dislike of substitutions, leaving them until inside the last 20odd minutes in most cases.

I love Farke, love him as a character, loved the football we played under him and how he was part of a new set up that gave us fresh hope and renewed enthusiasm. It's key to remember though, that it wasn't just him. It was his players too, the infectious Hernandez, the cheeky Stiepermann, the hatchet man Trybul, the renewed beaming smile of Klose, Zimmermann's willingness to do anything for the cause. And, what I felt at the time, a lot of people getting behind our players because of their down to earth honesty and our knowledge that they might not be the best but they were ours. 

So comparing ten games of Smiths first championship season at the helm for us, to three championship campaigns and one and a bit premier league campaigns under Farke is just silly. It isn't a fair reflection and it isn't a worthy reflection, especially when all of the key comparisons are missed out like fashion magazines airbrush out blemishes that don't suit them.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,549]

20 hours ago, AJ said:

I just can't love Smith, and I find myself getting frustrated with him very quickly compared to Farke. Farke had a power over the squad and fans, he did things his way, he commanded respect and earned it well. He had a system that produced mouthwatering football at times whereas today we were once again back in a system that doesn't use our players strengths and isolated our striker. Smith just doesn't give me any confidence whatsoever. 

Farke has gone. He's also an extremely personable guy who knows how to work a crowd. If that starts being a requirement for future managers in addition to getting results then we're going to be going through a lot of managers.

I find Smith quite likable, as it happens.

Edited September 18, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Move Klose 303]

22 hours ago, Petriix said:

Several of us who were undecided about Dean Smith said 'let's give him 10 games'. Well, here we are. 

If you'd asked me on Wednesday then my assessment would have been somewhat more positive, but today was a reality check and highlights how little we've progressed under Smith.

I'm willing to allow those first three games as a temporary blip while we found our feet. Far from ideal, but not the end of the world. 

The next 4 we found a way to win without playing especially well. Definitely a good sign. The next two we hit another gear (for the most part).

However, the midfield frailties persist. McLean is not a DM and Nunez is not fast or physical enough (yet) to perform the defensive part of the role he is being asked to do.

The telling thing for me is that we had dropped Rashica and (finally) reverted to the 4-2-3-1. With a number 10, Pukki was unshackled and back to his best. Cantwell was playing well too, in the same role in which he had originally broken into Farke's team.

We were creating chances. And taking them too. 

Yet here we are today. Cantwell dropped (squad rotated?) and back to the 4-3-3. And back to the same turgid rubbish from last season. No ideas. No creativity. Pukki isolated. Kenny as a single pivot in midfield, looking vulnerable and ineffective. A massive backwards step.

We're second in the table. 2 points per game. Salvaged a draw from a losing position against a good side. It's not so bad. Good enough, ultimately. 

However I'm still left with the overriding questions: what have we gained? Is this progress? 

It seems like the plan is still to keep persevering with the 4-3-3, despite its obvious shortcomings with our squad. It isn't working and it won't work with these players.

I can't warm to Dean Smith. The atmosphere is flat. There's an underlying discontent, simmering under the surface. 

We might just about have enough for automatic promotion. But we're nowhere near the level we hit under Farke. And we look further away from being a Premier League team than at any point in the last 4 years.

So, after 10 Championship games my verdict on Dean Smith: meh. 

If and it's a big if we get promoted. Which by the way I don't think we will how confident are you that Dean smith is the man to take this club forward.

Farke got the boot for whatever reason, wasn't get enough out of his squad, because we had lost our identity. I would argue the same thing is happening now. Granted we have had a decent points haul in the last 7 games, I feel once we start playing the better sides things might become a little bit trickier for us. 

We are desperate for Hayden and Giannoulis back in this side, we are all pinning our hopes on the midfield looking better once Hayden is back, let's hope he can come himself fit once he is back.

[Capt. Pants 4,234]

There's a high expectation of Hayden, he'd better hit the ground running!

 

[Petriix 2,835]

Look @chicken there's nothing 'entitled' about my views. I don't subscribe to the idea that we're automatically supposed to be able to compete in the Premier League. I don't expect us to walk the Championship either.

I'm well aware of the current state of transition and, even though I can't quite see what the plan is, I know that players need time to gel.

But my overriding point is that all the changes have done is take us backwards. Ever since promotion was secured, all we've done is regress. We have different views about who instigated that change but I think we'd both have preferred us to continue the same system on promotion rather than changing the system and signing the players we did last summer.

In a parallel universe where we got the recruitment right, I'm convinced that Farke could have been more competitive. That might not have meant survival, but only the 'entitled' would expect that. I just think it was madness to rip it all up. And sacking Farke was the act that cemented the madness. 

So, while it's totally fair to point out that Smith is doing OK and needs a bit of patience while it comes together, I'm always going to be left thinking 'why?'. Why should we have to watch the team reinvent itself when we already had a decent system? And any reinvention is always going to be compared to the previous success. 

What we needed was incremental improvement. We don't have the money to replace or upgrade players like Pukki and Cantwell so we have to build around them. Playing a 4-3-3 negates both. Pukki has only ever been successful playing with another striker or a number 10. Cantwell has never fitted into this new system.

There's a real danger that we'll lose both on free transfers at the end of the season. And then what? Do we copy Forest and sign a whole new squad?

So you'll have to forgive me for struggling to warm to Dean Smith. Unless (and until) he gives us something to get behind, he's always going to be met with apathy. As long as he persists with a single pivot I'm always going to be anxious about the massive hole in the midfield; especially as it took Farke so long to fix that particular issue. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

As others have said, we've been missing the planned defensive midfield lynchpin and before Lungi had a chance to get a run of games there, he ended up at left-back for some more deja-vu - then he got a long-term injury. Inevitably the midfield has looked rather unbalanced and vulnerable out of possession. So, left-back has a very right-footed right-back in it, and there's no natural screen in front.

There are some differences to Farkeball. Smith's idea of being on the front foot is being further up the pitch. Farke's idea of being on the front foot was to be in possession. Farke teams didn't really press much, Smith's definitely trying to get more turnovers up the pitch and he's trying to use the wings and set pieces more than Farke ever did. Indeed Sargent scored off one against Bristol, the equaliser today came off another. Don't remember us causing that much trouble off corners under Farke (although Buendia's corners were dross considering the rest of his game).

This is basically Smith's first window at getting his act together. The end result is not going to be as consistently appealing as peak Farkeball, let's banish all thoughts of it potentially being so right now. But he does need a fully fit midfield for it to work as it needs a good press and a reliable screen behind.

I'm not enthralled with the performances. I'm happy enough with the results. I think I can see what he wants to do. It's just not as stylish as what we were used to.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I think the slight apathy that seems to surround Carrow Road is that yes we arenowgetting the results but the football doesn't get you off your seat. There doesn't seem to be a game where we are convincing. Maybe something will click in midfield soon and excitement will return.

Personally, with the signings of a Brazilian and Chilean I expected to be dazzled by a new midfield. Currently, the excitement escapes me and I am just happy we are winning.

[Indy 3,300]

52 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Farke has gone. He's also an extremely personable guy who knows how to work a crowd. If that starts being a requirement for future managers in addition to getting results then we're going to be going through a lot of managers.

I find Smith quite likable, as it happens.

Me too! I find Smith reminds me of many friends I know, very likeable and would no doubt be a good chat in the pub or over a mug of tea! 😉😂 but I just can’t take to him as our manager……he’s yet to convince me he’s got any energy or enthusiasm for the job! That for some reason frustrates me!

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Therapy: -

Put 'Farke Out' into the search box to find out what you really thought😉

[Nuff Said 5,140]

I find the way Daniel Farke has metamorphosed into a mythical figure so quickly a bit surprising, although I’ve posted on here long enough to know better. People on this thread refer to Farkeball as if it was something magical, when the reality was quite different.  Who remembers (these aren’t actual quotes, but I would put money on them being pretty close to what was said on here):

- Farting around at the back

- He never makes subs

- Lack of man management skills (in reference to players like Leitner being excluded)

- More interested in possession stats than points

- Unable to change a game once we’re losing

 

Yes, the Farke era was great, but there were lots of complaints during it, some (many?) of them justified. We seem to be looking at that time through very rose/green tinted spectacles already.

Some of the most common complaints about Dean Smith now seem to be a lack of charisma and an absence of a clear style. As chicken has said, if that doesn’t smack of entitlement I don’t know what does. Most supporters of other Championship teams would swap their “style” (if they have one, I’d be interested to hear which of our competitors have a clear style) and their manager’s charisma (again, how many Championship teams have charismatic managers?) in a heartbeat to be where we are. We do seem to be the Chelsea/Liverpool/Man City of the Championship in more ways than one.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Nuff Said

[Nuff Said 5,140]

6 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Its an ongoing knee issue which he first injured in March 2021, had surgery on in December 2021, had further surgery in July 2022 and is still building back from in September 2022. That's 18 months of limited football due to a knee issue, it is concerning. 

Besides, he's had ankle surgery previously so clearly not the one serious injury is it!

Sam Byram is injury prone, Mart Jarvis and Louis Thompson were. Isaac Hayden is not.

[kick it off 1,952]

On 17/09/2022 at 18:47, Branston Pickle said:

Second after ten games with 2pts per game and people aren’t happy.  Do they realise how many players we have missing? I think it was 10 at one point, including 3 x lb, and most of our defensive midfield.  It seems there’s absolutely no allowance for that, in part because there’s a bonkers feeling with some that under Farke we’d have been sreamrollering sides 7-0 and been on 30pts right now.

We'd have at least 46 points by now if our Daniel were at the helm.