Here's a theory: Farke massively over achieved

[Petriix 3,219]

It's widely touted that farkeball doesn't work in the Premier League, at least not without high quality players. I'm increasingly inclined to agree; to a point... 

The implication is that Farke wasn't good enough a manager for the top flight. The assumption being that the squad was of sufficient quality but the tactics and coaching needed to be improved. The expectations were set by the quality shown in winning the Championship twice in three years. Surely the best players in the Championship would be able to compete at the next level?

Here's a thought: what if they weren't the best players in the Championship? What if they were a group of misfits, cast-offs and youth players operating well above their natural level due to the exceptional coaching and tactics of a once in a lifetime manager?

Let's put things into perspective. It took a year of hard graft to drill the system into the players. Then everything clicked into place in the second season where, after a slow start, they put together an incredible run to the highest points total in the club's history.

No wonder Premier League survival seemed impossible. We were effectively trying to survive with a mid table Championship squad. Never mind relegation though, we simply smashed the Championship again with even more points.

The idea that we could sell our best player and sign a few fresh faces, change the system and suddenly compete in the Premier League is looking increasingly naive. Farke was given an impossible task and sacked based upon the flawed assumption that the squad was better than it really was.

I'm of the belief that no manager could have kept that team up. There simply wasn't enough quality. In Dean Smith we have a capable if unspectacular manager who will likely get the team operating at its natural level. Unfortunately that probably means mid table in the Championship.

Farkeball couldn't keep a mid table Championship team up in the Premier League. Assuming that Farke was the problem has seen us arrogantly dispatch the best Norwich City manager I've known. Now we're going to find out just what we've lost.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

Paul Lambert kept a weaker team up than the one Farke took down the first time around. 

[Monty13 2,736]

1st Championship win was arguably an overachievement, I’d buy your assessment of it being a well drilled team coming into its own with players coming good and some good signings.

You’re also correct first PL season was a throwaway, a Championship team trying to compete with virtually no investment.

2nd Championship win no way. Easily the strongest team in the division with a number of the divisions best players, Buendia, Skipp and Pukki. Plus a number of other good quality players.

I maintain the issue is that those three were by far the best players. We lost one through no choice of our own and on reflection his initial signing was inspired. We lost the other through choice, we then neutered the last with that loss and failure to recruit anything close to an adequate replacement.

I think you are right no manager could have kept us up. However I think Farke lost his job for three reasons, because of his overt negativity, his inability to change our system to at least maximise competitiveness and that was all due to the fact he wasn’t stronger willed with his view in our recruitment in my opinion.

He signed his own death warrant by agreeing to that summer business, maybe he was too naive and believed people would stick by him but ultimately someone was going to go given how poor we were and it’s always the manager.

We have a very good championship squad but other than Pukki we are still missing those star players, the weapons that elevate that first 11 to Champion material IMO.

Plus we know we can’t play Farkeball with our resources in the PL, but I don’t think we have the new game plan in place yet, we can’t as there’s no new players.

[wcorkcanary 4,784]

9 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Paul Lambert kept a weaker team up than the one Farke took down the first time around. 

In an altogether weaker premier league imo.

[Matt Morriss 69]

11 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Paul Lambert kept a weaker team up than the one Farke took down the first time around. 

Absolute tosh.

Grant Holt, Wes Hoolahan, Johnny Howson, Bradley Johnson, John Ruddy, Leon Barnett, Zak Whitbread, Andrew Surman, Simeon Jackson, Adam Drury, Ryan Bennett.

Weaker team? Nonsense.

Farke had misfits and Bundesliga 2/3 players as the OP suggests. And Webber bought him Patrick Roberts, Josip Drmic and Dennis Srbeny to bolster the squad ffs!

 

 

 

[Matt Morriss 69]

5 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

1st Championship win was arguably an overachievement, I’d buy your assessment of it being a well drilled team coming into its own with players coming good and some good signings.

You’re also correct first PL season was a throwaway, a Championship team trying to compete with virtually no investment.

2nd Championship win no way. Easily the strongest team in the division with a number of the divisions best players, Buendia, Skipp and Pukki. Plus a number of other good quality players.

I maintain the issue is that those three were by far the best players. We lost one through no choice of our own and on reflection his initial signing was inspired. We lost the other through choice, we then neutered the last with that loss and failure to recruit anything close to an adequate replacement.

I think you are right no manager could have kept us up. However I think Farke lost his job for three reasons, because of his overt negativity, his inability to change our system to at least maximise competitiveness and that was all due to the fact he wasn’t stronger willed with his view in our recruitment in my opinion.

He signed his own death warrant by agreeing to that summer business, maybe he was too naive and believed people would stick by him but ultimately someone was going to go given how poor we were and it’s always the manager.

We have a very good championship squad but other than Pukki we are still missing those star players, the weapons that elevate that first 11 to Champion material IMO.

Plus we know we can’t play Farkeball with our resources in the PL, but I don’t think we have the new game plan in place yet, we can’t as there’s no new players.

Spot on. It amazes me the amount of people that still think sacking Farke was the right decision.

The same people keep banging the 'its not his team' crap about Smith. They'll be saying it in 2025 when he's still here and were bottom of the Championship.

[chicken 3,086]

13 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Paul Lambert kept a weaker team up than the one Farke took down the first time around. 

I think Lambert had a very British based side back then, one that had played in the EFL a fair bit and had a number of players he called "inbetweenies". Players too good for the championship, borderline good enough for the Championship. Almost a younger version of the team Worthington took up, but without the outright flair of Huckerby. 

I think technically on paper, they were a side made up of less technical ability but arguably one with a lot more balance. Some players were outright better too. Hoolahan hasn't really been matched by anyone in terms of assists I don't believe. He was creating more chances for players than Messi at one point too I believe (could be wrong).

Above all else, they played as a team, had two seasons of success behind them and had a way of playing that suited them all. When Lambert tried to tinker with it, the wheels fell off. Will never forget when he tried to play three at the back, I think we were 2-0 down before the half time whistle, can't remember who it was against in the prem now. He switched it back at half time and it became a contest again.

I don't think Farke overachieved as such, I think people remember fondly the promotion seasons and largely don't hold him to blame for the first season in the prem with so little money we were pretty much hamstrung from the get go.

I said on another thread that I wonder if rather than continuing to feed that plan A, or to improve it, they should have been working on a plan B far sooner. To be an option with the plan A, not an alternative to. Posed as a question that would be - did we get too good at Championship football and as a result that ill prepared us for premier league football?

[Creative Midfielder 2,203]

5 minutes ago, Petriix said:

It's widely touted that farkeball doesn't work in the Premier League, at least not without high quality players. I'm increasingly inclined to agree; to a point... 

The implication is that Farke wasn't good enough a manager for the top flight. The assumption being that the squad was of sufficient quality but the tactics and coaching needed to be improved. The expectations were set by the quality shown in winning the Championship twice in three years. Surely the best players in the Championship would be able to compete at the next level?

Here's a thought: what if they weren't the best players in the Championship? What if they were a group of misfits, cast-offs and youth players operating well above their natural level due to the exceptional coaching and tactics of a once in a lifetime manager?

Let's put things into perspective. It took a year of hard graft to drill the system into the players. Then everything clicked into place in the second season where, after a slow start, they put together an incredible run to the highest points total in the club's history.

No wonder Premier League survival seemed impossible. We were effectively trying to survive with a mid table Championship squad. Never mind relegation though, we simply smashed the Championship again with even more points.

The idea that we could sell our best player and sign a few fresh faces, change the system and suddenly compete in the Premier League is looking increasingly naive. Farke was given an impossible task and sacked based upon the flawed assumption that the squad was better than it really was.

I'm of the belief that no manager could have kept that team up. There simply wasn't enough quality. In Dean Smith we have a capable if unspectacular manager who will likely get the team operating at its natural level. Unfortunately that probably means mid table in the Championship.

Farkeball couldn't keep a mid table Championship team up in the Premier League. Assuming that Farke was the problem has seen us arrogantly dispatch the best Norwich City manager I've known. Now we're going to find out just what we've lost.

Absolutely 100% - you've described how I feel exactly although I don't think I could have articulated as clearly and well as you have done.

I know many would dispute that Daniel was the best manager we've ever had and they could argue a good case for others, after all we do have several other real contenders for that title but the one phrase that particularly struck me in your post was 'once in a lifetime manager'.

In 60 years of watching City that is exactly how I think of Farke. 'Best' or not, none of other great managers we've had over years generated that feeling and though we've had fantastics spells under other managers as well, none of them ever seemed to be on board for a long term project to leave an enduring and sustainable legacy of improving the club.

I think it's clear already that we've lost a huge opportunity which is unlikely to ever be repeated.

 

 

[Monty13 2,736]

8 minutes ago, Matt Morriss said:

Spot on. It amazes me the amount of people that still think sacking Farke was the right decision.

The same people keep banging the 'its not his team' crap about Smith. They'll be saying it in 2025 when he's still here and were bottom of the Championship.

Just for point of fact, I’m not saying sacking Farke was the wrong thing to do or right.

I’m saying given what he was achieving last season and the circumstances it was inevitable, and that was at least partly of his own making.

Also if we know we needed to abandon Farkeball and try a different approach was he really the man to do it?

Also I am saying this isn’t the team we need, it hasn’t changed enough (yet) and therefore it’s not Dean Smiths team (whatever that really means). Whether Smith is the man to make the changes needed is debatable but doesn’t change the fact there wasn’t a single new player on the field today.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Monty13

[chicken 3,086]

6 minutes ago, Matt Morriss said:

Spot on. It amazes me the amount of people that still think sacking Farke was the right decision.

The same people keep banging the 'its not his team' crap about Smith. They'll be saying it in 2025 when he's still here and were bottom of the Championship.

"Plus we know we can’t play Farkeball with our resources in the PL, but I don’t think we have the new game plan in place yet, we can’t as there’s no new players."

Could be wrong, but that last bit Monty says reads very much like "it's not his team" with the caveat of 'yet'. So not quite what it would seem you are thinking he is saying. I could be wrong though so prepared to get a pair of fresh pants out to pee in and a spare bed sheet and some crayons.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,616]

5 minutes ago, Matt Morriss said:

Absolute tosh.

Grant Holt, Wes Hoolahan, Johnny Howson, Bradley Johnson, John Ruddy, Leon Barnett, Zak Whitbread, Andrew Surman, Simeon Jackson, Adam Drury, Ryan Bennett.

Weaker team? Nonsense.

Farke had misfits and Bundesliga 2/3 players as the OP suggests. And Webber bought him Patrick Roberts, Josip Drmic and Dennis Srbeny to bolster the squad ffs!

Of that Lambert team you mention, how many of those ever had a prolonged run of Premier League football anywhere other than at Norwich? Surman had about three years and Bournemouth and Bennett had a season or so at Wolves.

As individuals, there were very few genuine Premier League players in that squad, but they were riding the crest of a wave and all functioned incredibly well as a unit.

[chicken 3,086]

1 minute ago, Monty13 said:

Just for point of fact, I’m not saying sacking Farke was the wrong thing to do or right.

I’m saying given what he was achieving last season and the circumstances it was inevitable, and that was at least partly of his own making.

Also if we know we needed to abandon Farkeball and try a different approach was he really the man to do it?

Also I am saying this isn’t the team we need, it hasn’t changed enough (yet) and therefore it’s not Dean Smiths team (whatever that really means). Whether Smith is the man to make the changes needed is debatable but doesn’t change the fact there wasn’t a single new player on the field yesterday.

This is where I am at too. 

[Creative Midfielder 2,203]

26 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Paul Lambert kept a weaker team up than the one Farke took down the first time around. 

Only because the EPL in general was a lot weaker than it is nowadays, and anyway he bailed because he didn't believe he could do it again - which given his track record since leaving us was probably a pretty shrewd assessment.

[Petriix 3,219]

3 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

1st Championship win was arguably an overachievement, I’d buy your assessment of it being a well drilled team coming into its own with players coming good and some good signings.

You’re also correct first PL season was a throwaway, a Championship team trying to compete with virtually no investment.

2nd Championship win no way. Easily the strongest team in the division with a number of the divisions best players, Buendia, Skipp and Pukki. Plus a number of other good quality players.

I maintain the issue is that those three were by far the best players. We lost one through no choice of our own and on reflection his initial signing was inspired. We lost the other through choice, we then neutered the last with that loss and failure to recruit anything close to an adequate replacement.

I think you are right no manager could have kept us up. However I think Farke lost his job for three reasons, because of his overt negativity, his inability to change our system to at least maximise competitiveness and that was all due to the fact he wasn’t stronger willed with his view in our recruitment in my opinion.

He signed his own death warrant by agreeing to that summer business, maybe he was too naive and believed people would stick by him but ultimately someone was going to go given how poor we were and it’s always the manager.

We have a very good championship squad but other than Pukki we are still missing those star players, the weapons that elevate that first 11 to Champion material IMO.

Plus we know we can’t play Farkeball with our resources in the PL, but I don’t think we have the new game plan in place yet, we can’t as there’s no new players.

Thanks for the considered reply. It's good to disagree with civility and reason.

I don't think you can objectively claim that we had the strongest team in the Championship in 20-21. We were the weakest of the three relegated teams and didn't massively strengthen after going down.

Arguably Farke developed Skipp and Buendia into the players they became rather than inherently being good. The majority of the rest of the squad are still here and doing far worse than before. Otherwise Vrancic, Tettey, Rupp and Stiepermann were far more important than perhaps they are credited.

We have no idea how involved Farke was with the recruitment. Perhaps he's partly responsible for the awful signings, perhaps not. 

I'd still maintain that we'd be in a far better place right now if we'd simply banked the Buendia cash and stuck with Farke. Bringing in Rashica, Sargent, Tzolis and then Smith has added up to a £30 million + mistake. So far.

I'd really love to be proven wrong. But each time I watch Rashica miscontrol the ball or fail to spot Pukki's run, it reinforces my belief that we've blown what we had chasing an impossible dream. 

[cambridgeshire canary 7,798]

Of course Farke over achived. He came to as an unproven unknown and in just two seasons was able to take a team of free agents and youth players all working on the budget as one of the poorest clubs in the second divison to the top flight playing some of the best football this club has known. Quite frankly there was no way he  should have been able to do what he did and yet he did 

Edited July 30, 2022 by cambridgeshire canary

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

3 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Only because the EPL in general was a lot weaker than it is nowadays,

The stats don't back up this theory that the gap between the Championship and Premier League is wider now than it was then, and its very easy to work out - you just look at likelihood of survival at first attempt. Barely changed. 

[Nuff Said 5,962]

16 minutes ago, Matt Morriss said:

Absolute tosh.

Grant Holt, Wes Hoolahan, Johnny Howson, Bradley Johnson, John Ruddy, Leon Barnett, Zak Whitbread, Andrew Surman, Simeon Jackson, Adam Drury, Ryan Bennett.

Weaker team? Nonsense.

Farke had misfits and Bundesliga 2/3 players as the OP suggests. And Webber bought him Patrick Roberts, Josip Drmic and Dennis Srbeny to bolster the squad ffs!

 

 

 

1. Jackson and Whitbread?? They couldn’t sustain a Championship career once they left us, let alone PL. Johnson barely had a game in the PL either.

2. So the misfits and Bundesliga players were Farke’s and the new players who didn’t deliver were Webber’s? 

[Creative Midfielder 2,203]

1 minute ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

The stats don't back up this theory that the gap between the Championship and Premier League is wider now than it was then, and its very easy to work out - you just look at likelihood of survival at first attempt. Barely changed. 

That rather depends upon which stats you choose to use, financially the gap is massive now compared to then.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

18 minutes ago, Matt Morriss said:

Absolute tosh.

Grant Holt, Wes Hoolahan, Johnny Howson, Bradley Johnson, John Ruddy, Leon Barnett, Zak Whitbread, Andrew Surman, Simeon Jackson, Adam Drury, Ryan Bennett.

Weaker team? Nonsense.

Farke had misfits and Bundesliga 2/3 players as the OP suggests. And Webber bought him Patrick Roberts, Josip Drmic and Dennis Srbeny to bolster the squad ffs!

How many of those players you've listed there had any Premier League experience prior to the Lambert promotion?

Just Adam Drury? 

We signed Grant Holt from League Two and Simeon Jackson from League One for f*cks sake. 

[yellowrider120 917]

8 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Thanks for the considered reply. It's good to disagree with civility and reason.

I don't think you can objectively claim that we had the strongest team in the Championship in 20-21. We were the weakest of the three relegated teams and didn't massively strengthen after going down.

Arguably Farke developed Skipp and Buendia into the players they became rather than inherently being good. The majority of the rest of the squad are still here and doing far worse than before. Otherwise Vrancic, Tettey, Rupp and Stiepermann were far more important than perhaps they are credited.

We have no idea how involved Farke was with the recruitment. Perhaps he's partly responsible for the awful signings, perhaps not. 

I'd still maintain that we'd be in a far better place right now if we'd simply banked the Buendia cash and stuck with Farke. Bringing in Rashica, Sargent, Tzolis and then Smith has added up to a £30 million + mistake. So far.

I'd really love to be proven wrong. But each time I watch Rashica miscontrol the ball or fail to spot Pukki's run, it reinforces my belief that we've blown what we had chasing an impossible dream. 

Is not this the very same player who many on here have been saying for weeks will ......................'rip up the Championship' alongside his Werder Bremmen team mate??? 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

3 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

That rather depends upon which stats you choose to use, financially the gap is massive now compared to then.

There can only be a maximum of 500 players over 21 registered for Premier League clubs, no matter how big the financial gap is, so as a general rule the 500 best players in the country will be playing in the Premier League (over simplified, and exceptions to the rule, but the point is that double the wealth of Premier League clubs tomorrow, and you could argue that the 501st best over 21 player will still be in the Championship)

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[Nuff Said 5,962]

8 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I'd still maintain that we'd be in a far better place right now if we'd simply banked the Buendia cash and stuck with Farke. Bringing in Rashica, Sargent, Tzolis and then Smith has added up to a £30 million + mistake. So far.

Granted you have said “We have no idea how involved Farke was with the recruitment”, but this again smacks of the good stuff is Farke, the bad Webber. Farke will have had significant input to transfers, it would be madness if not, and he would have been in a position of strength after getting us promoted twice too. Not to specify what he wanted would have been bizarre.

[Petriix 3,219]

1 minute ago, Nuff Said said:

Granted you have said “We have no idea how involved Farke was with the recruitment”, but this again smacks of the good stuff is Farke, the bad Webber. Farke will have had significant input to transfers, it would be madness if not, and he would have been in a position of strength after getting us promoted twice too. Not to specify what he wanted would have been bizarre.

For all we know, Farke said "I need three decent attacking midfielders to replace Emi and upgrade Todd and Dowell, oh and keep Oli for another year" and simply trusted Webber to deliver. 

[Nuff Said 5,962]

1 minute ago, Petriix said:

For all we know, Farke said "I need three decent attacking midfielders to replace Emi and upgrade Todd and Dowell, oh and keep Oli for another year" and simply trusted Webber to deliver. 

Very weak on his part if that’s what he did, no?

[Monty13 2,736]

10 hours ago, Petriix said:

Thanks for the considered reply. It's good to disagree with civility and reason.

I don't think you can objectively claim that we had the strongest team in the Championship in 20-21. We were the weakest of the three relegated teams and didn't massively strengthen after going down.

Arguably Farke developed Skipp and Buendia into the players they became rather than inherently being good. The majority of the rest of the squad are still here and doing far worse than before. Otherwise Vrancic, Tettey, Rupp and Stiepermann were far more important than perhaps they are credited.

We have no idea how involved Farke was with the recruitment. Perhaps he's partly responsible for the awful signings, perhaps not. 

I'd still maintain that we'd be in a far better place right now if we'd simply banked the Buendia cash and stuck with Farke. Bringing in Rashica, Sargent, Tzolis and then Smith has added up to a £30 million + mistake. So far.

I'd really love to be proven wrong. But each time I watch Rashica miscontrol the ball or fail to spot Pukki's run, it reinforces my belief that we've blown what we had chasing an impossible dream. 

I think coming last doesn’t necessarily make you the weakest relegated team. Look at this year, Burnley narrowly got relegated and we were awful yet I would imagine that many objective people given the amount of key players they’ve lost and still likely to lose would regard Burnley as a weaker team, but it’s subjective.

We brought in Skipp, one of the best players in the division that year. Emi kicked on to have an absolutely incredible season after a fairly lacklustre PL one (in goals terms). We bought Gibson who was brilliant that season (if we can all forget last). Omobamidele broke into the team. Sorensen added depth. Dowell joined. Giannoulis joined in Jan (we actually spent money on a strong performer in a Jan transfer window!). As well as that we retained Aaron’s, Hanley, Krul, Cabtwell etc. the few brighter lights from that PL season. We still had Pukki after firing double figure PL goals. We bought Hugill as backup.

IMO it was the strongest team in the league and others seemed to think so to from analysis and the team of the season votes. That team was the high watermark of the last however many years, it was the strongest Norwich team I can remember.

You can attribute developments to Farke but Skipp was a burgeoning talent before he arrived, like I said in hindsight absolutely inspired signing. Buendia has been developing nicely and while not as influencial as we’d all wanted in the PL his stats were super impressive and he was even better in the Championship. Easily the Championships best player that year.

Farke was on the committee and sanctioned signings, reading what Michael Bailey wrote that was pretty clear. If he didn’t like what he saw he should have been much more vocal and forceful because ultimately he was going to bite the bullet if they didn’t work, hence my earlier comment.

Two different arguments to me, no the investment wasn’t used wisely (with hindsight) but I don’t think we’d be in any better position right now with Farke and his relationship with supporters would probably be in tatters, at least he left with face and dignity.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Monty13
I forgot Dowell

[astro 423]

If Farke had a large input into the recruitment as some have suggested, then surely it would have made sense to entrust him to get a tune out of them, even when things started badly? Where was the sense in employing a manger with a system of play that our then latest recruitments don’t suit? 

Edited July 30, 2022 by astro

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,616]

7 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

Is not this the very same player who many on here have been saying for weeks will ......................'rip up the Championship' alongside his Werder Bremmen team mate??? 

I'm not sure many, if any, have tipped them both to 'rip up the Championship'. 

I still feel that Rashica has the quality to be a top Championship player this season. His old teammate from Bremen does not.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

Just now, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I'm not sure many, if any, have tipped them both to 'rip up the Championship'. 

I still feel that Rashica has the quality to be a top Championship player this season. His old teammate from Bremen does not.

Unfortunately Rashica has no desire passion whatsoever. he's just collecting his pay cheque so he can live like Hugh Heffner for the rest of his days in a castle in Kosovo (at least, that's what I'd do if I were a Kosovan millionaire).

Its a shame because if you put Sargents heart into Rasicha's body, you'd have a player there.

 

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,223]

I would argue that Farkeball does work in the Premier League in that it is not that different to the way Liverpool and to an extent Man City play, the issue was 1) It is a system that the Premier League teams are used to seeing and 2) The players were not of a high enough calibre/quality (With the exception of Buendia).

Farkeball worked so well in the Championship because no other team played that way and teams did not know how to combat it and of course at the lower level our players were of sufficient quality/calibre.

The issue for us now is that we now play just like every other team in the Championship and therefore we are going to be easier to combat.

We have to hope that the new players make us a different proposition because as it stands we are a fantastically ordinary Championship team.......

[TheGunnShow 7,377]

46 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

In an altogether weaker premier league imo.

Yep, that's the elephant in the room with that line. Sure, there was a fair bit of money sloshing around the Premier League back then, but the polarisation since then has gone up several levels.