Here's a theory: Farke massively over achieved

[littleyellowbirdie 2,566]

13 hours ago, astro said:

If Farke had a large input into the recruitment as some have suggested, then surely it would have made sense to entrust him to get a tune out of them, even when things started badly? Where was the sense in employing a manger with a system of play that our then latest recruitments don’t suit? 

You read back on this forum, facebook, Twitter, back in October last year and Farke was a 'clueless clown' that couldn't say anything in a post-match interview without it being torn apart: 'given up before he'd started', 'out of his depth'. 

A lot of fans wanted him gone; without that, I've no doubt that the club would have accepted our likely fate and we'd have been straight back to championship Farkeball this season. The club relented to the pressure and sacked him. 

Once you do that, you take what you can get. Lampard was approached and didn't want it; Smith was available, with a record for promotion from the Championship and survival in the premier league. That makes him a decent appointment on paper. Beyond that, one Championship 1-0 loss after a trek to the opposite side of Great Britain after a short pre-season, before a number of our top signings are even available to play, is NOT  the time to make judgements on whether the manager is up to the job. 

Moreover, the obsession with who is manager/coach is absolutely crazy; a football club is so much more than just the manager.

You have a minority of people on the forum offering opinions on the performance of individual players, who needs to improve, who did well, who shows promise etc. I'm not one of them, because my insight into the finer points of strategy, tactics and gameplay is pretty worthless. Their opinions I find really interesting and thought-provoking; the constant 'have we got the right manager', 'we should sack him', 'we shouldn't have sacked him' strikes me as about as interesting as kidney stones. 

Edited July 31, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Robert N. LiM 4,442]

2 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

The system failed, the recruitment failed, the finances failed. Farke went. 

All because of the here-and-now requirements of the top level where our odds of even short-term survival for any period were very low. 

 Is what happened and what is happening now consistent with the model?

Great post as always. 

I'm just trying to imagine the alternative, what would have happened if we had kept DF. We would have gone down, I think that's pretty certain. We would have had every low-rent pundit saying we weren't even trying. It would have needed Webber or even MWJ/DS coming out and saying something along the lines of "Daniel is the biggest asset this club has and we're sticking with him even if we're adrift at the bottom." I think I would have admired that - it would have been the ultimate in ignoring the noise - but I also find it difficult to imagine that the fans would have stood for it. We were all ok with relegation in 19-20 because we realised that we were in the PL ahead of schedule and with no money. But accepting it again would have been hard to do. And the fact of the matter is that the only thing you can do mid-season to try and change your fortunes is change the coach. 

I love Daniel, and I agree with a lot of what is being said in this thread, but it's all a lot more in sorrow than anger for me. Feels like we've been spat out by the horrific reality of trying to compete in a billionaires' league. 

[Petriix 2,847]

2 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Indeed. Collegiate to a fault. Thoughtful about ‘where the lines are’ between Head Coach and Sporting Director. 

Drawing those lines is an art, not a science. 

Suspect Farke also knew that ‘Plan B’ was pointless. We were heavily invested in Farkeball, from the ground up. Any top level limited money needed to be spent well on more athletic, complete players that were intrinsically still Farkeball acolytes. Almost only expensive players and Man City reserves need apply. 

By definition Norwich are not going to attract many. Finances horribly limited. So recruitment should logically have been  very forensic. A strong rejection of anything less than ideal would be required. Difficult to do when all are screaming for ‘upgrades’ (‘quick sign someone!’).

I do not believe that Farke thought Sargent a technically-gifted player. 

Webber would be forgiven for spending limited money on ‘the most likely to appreciate’ assets. This would be ‘young, somewhat-established players in good leagues, who look physically suited to top level football.’ 

Not quite the same criteria as ‘Farkeball acolytes and Man City reserves. 

This crack in the tectonic plates of the Head Coach - Sporting Director is where the ‘fights-discussions-meetings’ are held. 

‘Committee decisions’ in these areas are often shown in psych experiments to favour the dominant character in the room. The one with the most practical power to affect the future of those present. Hence ‘Committee decisions’ are not always made on the fact at hand, but for more ‘political’ reasons. 

We do not have to guess if we can read the book. Rashica, Sargent, Tzolis - £30m of incredibly precious resources - have all failed horribly thus far. Buendia, Skipp were even more fundamentally important than we already knew they were. Our top level team was worse than our Championship team. 

We did brilliantly to get promoted first time under Farke, our second promotion was a brilliant, processional romp. In the current parameters of football, it was very clear that that could be our Apotheosis. 

Our identity was clear. The fans understood it, recognised it and bought into it. 

The very purpose of ‘the model’ is to smooth out  the bumps and troughs of new managers coming in and ‘not having their own players’. There can be no ‘clear out’. There should be no need for ‘a new identity’. That is the purpose of the model, the raison d’être of the Sporting Director role. 

I go back to the horrible game against Leeds. It looked like Farke had been asked to write left-handed. It looked like he almost wanted the world to see that change was being forced. 

The system was not designed to have a Plan B. That’s good logic if you are under-resourced. You amortise some of the gap with repetition, with drilled instinct, with clear pattern of play.

Positional play principles are also difficult to teach, they take a long time to bed in. You typically need a certain kind of player - intellectually, in terms of fluidity of thought, an off-the-ball constant engagement wherever the ball is (not nearly as common as you would think). That is also a way to amortise disparity of resources. It all adds up. 

Adding one or two very suitable players at a time forensically was the only strategic option. It probably wouldn’t have been enough. So be it. Be strong enough to bank the difference. Go again.

My instinct - which may be totally incorrect - is that Webber would have left had we succeeded. It was the failure that forced him to stay. Thus there was a sense of ‘throwing every dart’ at last  year. Even a few that might fail. Is that what was best for ‘the Company’ or ‘the model’? That they were poor choices is in some ways a moot point. They didn’t obviously seamlessly fit. Selling Buendia upon promotion, not replacing Skipp’s role. Buying wingers for £20m (or £30m if you strangely include Sargent) at the top level where nobody plays them because you are then defensively too open??

Now we are in the classic position of ‘rebounding’ somewhat away from what we were, with the very dangerous addiction to creating a Prem-lite ersatz team for the one we think we would need to stay up in the Prem. 

That is not where we are. 

We will simply look a pound shop version of the lower Prem teams that scrap up every year. What identity is that? How is it different to what every other Champs team do? is that what brought us success before?

Make no mistake our current financial parameters mean that promotion is huge success. 

Investing in people, models, style of play, philosophy, training centre, youth is a great long-term way to maximise what little we have. 

Using Head Coaches as lightning rods for poor structural decisions, letting new managers change the script too much, failing to adhere to stated methodologies, principles and intentions, do not strike me as consistent with the model as stated. 

The system failed, the recruitment failed, the finances failed. Farke went. 

All because of the here-and-now requirements of the top level where our odds of even short-term survival for any period were very low. 

 Is what happened and what is happening now consistent with the model?

Parma 

 

 

For me it comes down to this: Webber is an architect of change. He took the criticism of that first relegation to heart and decided that we needed to do things differently; as much about being seen to try as the actual outcome.

The better option would have been to retain as much continuity as possible. Imagine if we kept Buendia, spent £30M on Skipp and just added Tzolis as a future star. Probably still relegated, but in a far better position this year to go again.

Webber couldn't do that. He had to gamble. For those who play poker it's the football equivalent of chasing a straight. We should have folded, keeping our stack ready for the next hand. But Webber went all in.

Now we're in the horrible position of having abandoned the previous plan and not yet come up with a new one. We have players who don't work well together and lack the individual ability to hurt other teams. And, because they represent such an enormous expense in both transfer fees and wages, there's an obligation to keep playing them in the irrational hope that they'll suddenly start performing.

We can only hope that we've lucked in to some genuine quality with the new signings and that we find the best combination of attacking threat out of the squad we have. For me that means never playing Rashica and Sargent at the same time if at all. 

[Robert N. LiM 4,442]

2 hours ago, Monty13 said:

Would everyone have been happy being the best relegated team in the PL each time?

This is the question. 

Have to say, agree completely with your posts on this thread, @Monty13. Exactly where I am.

[BigFish 1,988]

13 hours ago, Monty13 said:

I think coming last doesn’t necessarily make you the weakest relegated team. Look at this year, Burnley narrowly got relegated and we were awful yet I would imagine that many objective people given the amount of key players they’ve lost and still likely to lose would regard Burnley as a weaker team, but it’s subjective.

We brought in Skipp, one of the best players in the division that year. Emi kicked on to have an absolutely incredible season after a fairly lacklustre PL one (in goals terms). We bought Gibson who was brilliant that season (if we can all forget last). Omobamidele broke into the team. Sorensen added depth. Dowell joined. Giannoulis joined in Jan (we actually spent money on a strong performer in a Jan transfer window!). As well as that we retained Aaron’s, Hanley, Krul, Cabtwell etc. the few brighter lights from that PL season. We still had Pukki after firing double figure PL goals. We bought Hugill as backup.

IMO it was the strongest team in the league and others seemed to think so to from analysis and the team of the season votes. That team was the high watermark of the last however many years, it was the strongest Norwich team I can remember.

You can attribute developments to Farke but Skipp was a burgeoning talent before he arrived, like I said in hindsight absolutely inspired signing. Buendia has been developing nicely and while not as influencial as we’d all wanted in the PL his stats were super impressive and he was even better in the Championship. Easily the Championships best player that year.

Farke was on the committee and sanctioned signings, reading what Michael Bailey wrote that was pretty clear. If he didn’t like what he saw he should have been much more vocal and forceful because ultimately he was going to bite the bullet if they didn’t work, hence my earlier comment.

Two different arguments to me, no the investment wasn’t used wisely (with hindsight) but I don’t think we’d be in any better position right now with Farke and his relationship with supporters would probably be in tatters, at least he left with face and dignity.

@Petriix makes some good points. Farke did manage to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, not once but twice. As a result posters wildly overrate the players when we go up, and underrate them when we go down. Truth is the players are and have been what Roeder in his time called inbetweeners, too good for the Chumps, not good enough for the prem. Farkeball is effectively offensive, and works by wearing down inferior teams via posession. It simply would never work in a position where the opposition were stronger, more technical and faster in thought and action. Other weapons were needed, and the failure to identify them was what cost Farke his job.

[ricardo 7,395]

2 hours ago, Monty13 said:

 

Would everyone have been happy being the best relegated team in the PL each time?

 

I'll take in anytime over a decade of Championship mediocrity. Been there, done that, more than once.

If thats as good as it gets then why not "Embrace the Yoyo"

[Robert N. LiM 4,442]

2 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I'll take in anytime over a decade of Championship mediocrity. Been there, done that, more than once.

If thats as good as it gets then why not "Embrace the Yoyo"

Have a lot of respect for this view, Ricardo, and think I agree. I just find it difficult to think it would be the majority view at CR after yet another limp defeat. Think it could have turned toxic very quickly. At least this way Daniel left before that happened, with his reputation intact. The least he deserves given what he brought to this club.

[chicken 2,640]

14 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

Granted you have said “We have no idea how involved Farke was with the recruitment”, but this again smacks of the good stuff is Farke, the bad Webber. Farke will have had significant input to transfers, it would be madness if not, and he would have been in a position of strength after getting us promoted twice too. Not to specify what he wanted would have been bizarre.

Webber has been quite candid on how it works. Last summer he explained that PLM was one Farke particularly liked and wanted but they thought would be out of their price range but were pleasantly surprised when he wasn't.

[Monty13 2,239]

11 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I'll take in anytime over a decade of Championship mediocrity. Been there, done that, more than once.

If thats as good as it gets then why not "Embrace the Yoyo"

Well given those two choices obviously we all would I assume.

I think from the last years actions the club thinks we can achieve establishment in the PL for at least a few seasons, but not in that style or we wouldn’t have abandoned it.

[Monty13 2,239]

28 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

This is the question. 

Have to say, agree completely with your posts on this thread, @Monty13. Exactly where I am.

Thanks. I think if that’s the expectation set , to be a continuous yo-yo club, maybe people would accept it (but I doubt it).

However you sell the established PL club dream to supporters when that doesn’t happen there’s understandable restlessness.

[chicken 2,640]

8 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Have a lot of respect for this view, Ricardo, and think I agree. I just find it difficult to think it would be the majority view at CR after yet another limp defeat. Think it could have turned toxic very quickly. At least this way Daniel left before that happened, with his reputation intact. The least he deserves given what he brought to this club.

I fear the reality is more that a great many people don't really fully understand the current situation of English football, or the perspective that people like Ricardo have.

We were promoted to the top flight for the first time in the 1970's and for the most part, have flitted between the top two divisions, with an excursion to the 3rd just to remind ourselves of the past and to try a different route up. The longest period out would be the relegation from the premier league under Chase, which took us ten years to get back.

You often hear it on here and on canary call "where is all the money?" There just isn't the understanding IMHO. It's not at all like it once was, that you can get a drill instructor of a manager who makes his teams fitter and that gains you another 15pts a season etc. Largely, fitness etc is all pretty level, though there is some difference between leagues, I have no idea why in this day an age in the professional tiers.

I'm the same as Riccardo, we need to give it a bloody good go - within our means, but I would take yo-yo-ing above the decade cast into the old division one any day. We really did field some dross teams, and played some dross teams. Watching old premier league pro's ungracefully winding down their careers with teams that managed to get them in for a season or two just strut around with barely a care. Every time we got someone with a fleeting moment of quality they were on their way. Then it was onto finding the next player that could help Iwan keep us going...

Nah. We've established ourselves as a club that will give young players a platform to perform, managers time to develop and shape a squad, of being a football first community club. 

[chicken 2,640]

5 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Thanks. I think if that’s the expectation set , to be a continuous yo-yo club, maybe people would accept it (but I doubt it).

However you sell the established PL club dream to supporters when that doesn’t happen there’s understandable restlessness.

You have to dream though right? You have to hope that somehow, at some point it'll stick. No one can promise it, not with an ever spiralling out of financial control/reach premier league. Are people going to demand, for ever and a day, that we have new owners each time the top six push the financial ceiling of the premier league ever further impacting upon the lower teams too?

Those sorts of demands aren't sustainable either.

A dose of reality is always worth adding I feel. 

[hogesar 9,711]

@Petriix makes some very good points.

But ultimately,  the noisy fans speak and drive certain decisions eventually. 

Farke was ripped apart on here despite his legacy. Every post match interview torn to shreds. Apparently we were beaten before starting a match with him in charge.

The reality is football fans don't have what it takes to stick it through rough times without feeling that some sort of change has to happen. Doesn't always matter what that change is. Just a change.

Some couldn't stick Farkes first season. They refused to renew if he was still in charge next season. They missed out a bit.

[Monty13 2,239]

29 minutes ago, BigFish said:

@Petriix makes some good points. Farke did manage to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, not once but twice. As a result posters wildly overrate the players when we go up, and underrate them when we go down. Truth is the players are and have been what Roeder in his time called inbetweeners, too good for the Chumps, not good enough for the prem. Farkeball is effectively offensive, and works by wearing down inferior teams via posession. It simply would never work in a position where the opposition were stronger, more technical and faster in thought and action. Other weapons were needed, and the failure to identify them was what cost Farke his job.

I disagree on that point, he did it once. I struggle to see the evidence that second Championship winning title wasn’t with objectively one of, if not (IMO) the strongest team in the league. Only a couple of squads were even close in quality IMO and nobody else had a player of Buendias calibre.

I almost fully agree with the rest of what you said though. You can’t out technical better quality technical teams, at least not consistently enough to stay up.

My only caveat would be IMO Farke lost his job for agreeing to the recruitment strategy and thus making himself the obvious sacrifice when it didn’t work.

[Indy 3,308]

3 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Thanks. I think if that’s the expectation set , to be a continuous yo-yo club, maybe people would accept it (but I doubt it).

However you sell the established PL club dream to supporters when that doesn’t happen there’s understandable restlessness.

I like Ricardo am content with being a yo-yo club, it’s difficult to see anything other as being looked at as success. As Nutty correctly states not every club can be in the top 20, there are bigger clubs than us in the third tier!

I would expect that if we get relegated that we at least rebuild to be stronger in the areas we failed in the previous season and definitely think each time up in the premiership we should look stronger even if relegated and I can’t say that’s happening at present!

The past five years have been a great ride, the fans and club in general have been very connected on and off field, it’s just this past season we appear to have seen our best player sold, the club looking to buy young players with one eye on future sales, Webber not really communicating with the fans very well and Farke being rightly sacked but replaced with another sacked manger from a club who spent far more money and we’re only three places above us.
 

It’s all gone a bit sour with wrong type records broken in the premiership, not real improvement in performance, a manager who the majority of fans still question even after 9 months and losing yesterday was always going to see massive negative questions being raised.

[Monty13 2,239]

3 minutes ago, chicken said:

You have to dream though right? You have to hope that somehow, at some point it'll stick. No one can promise it, not with an ever spiralling out of financial control/reach premier league. Are people going to demand, for ever and a day, that we have new owners each time the top six push the financial ceiling of the premier league ever further impacting upon the lower teams too?

Those sorts of demands aren't sustainable either.

A dose of reality is always worth adding I feel. 

Thing is the reality is other clubs have achieved it, or close to it in similar positions over the same time period. We haven’t done either.

Therefore we can point at the financial constraints and slim chance of success but we can’t say in reality it’s not possible, because it is.

[ricardo 7,395]

4 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

 

However you sell the established PL club dream to supporters when that doesn’t happen there’s understandable restlessness.

Without a Fairy Godmother (or Sugar Daddy) that dream will never be fulfilled.

The world of dreams is boundless, the world of reality is somewhat limited by comparison.

Thats why many prefer to dream.

 

[chicken 2,640]

Just now, ricardo said:

Without a Fairy Godmother (or Sugar Daddy) that dream will never be fulfilled.

The world of dreams is boundless, the world of reality is somewhat limited by comparison.

Thats why many prefer to dream.

I would argue that even with a Fairy Godmother (or Sugar Daddy), it isn't guaranteed. 

This will be Fulham's third attempted and they've spent much more than us trying to do it. 

[ricardo 7,395]

4 minutes ago, chicken said:

I would argue that even with a Fairy Godmother (or Sugar Daddy), it isn't guaranteed. 

This will be Fulham's third attempted and they've spent much more than us trying to do it. 

Yes there are several teams all in much the same boat that complete to recycle between Prem and Champs. Some manage to stay for a year or two or even longer but eventually all but the big six or eight will go through this process.

[Monty13 2,239]

3 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Without a Fairy Godmother (or Sugar Daddy) that dream will never be fulfilled.

The world of dreams is boundless, the world of reality is somewhat limited by comparison.

Thats why many prefer to dream.

 

Not disagreeing, just pointing out I don’t think you’ll get a majority of supporters to accept that, rightly or wrongly. Football is still about the Roy of the Rovers underdog dream to many regardless of how obvious it’s becoming thats isn’t really possible anymore.

I also think there’s trying and failing to achieve a dream and there’s failing to believe the dream can be achieved. 

We will never win the PL without money, or a cup. Not being relegated from the PL once is a much more achievable dream we should be able to at least give a good go.

[chicken 2,640]

7 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Thing is the reality is other clubs have achieved it, or close to it in similar positions over the same time period. We haven’t done either.

Therefore we can point at the financial constraints and slim chance of success but we can’t say in reality it’s not possible, because it is.

Sort of. I think I posted about this before. Since we first gained promotion with Farke, only two teams have managed more seasons in the premier league than us.

2018-19
Norwich
Sheffield Utd
Villa

2019-20
Leeds
WBA
Fulham

2020-21
Norwich
Watford
Brentford

2021-22
Fulham
Bournemouth
Nottingham Forrest

Total number of seasons in the premier league for each of those teams including the current campaign:

1 season: WBA
2 seasons: Shef Utd, Norwich, Fulham, Brentford
3 seasons: Leeds
4 seasons: Villa

Watford and Bournemouth were in the premier league already and relegated with us at the end of the 19/20 campaign you can probably add one to Fulham for the 2018-19 season too if you wanted to. When you look at all of that, when you consider the financial backing of Leeds, Villa, Fulham, Watford, Bournemouth... it just underlines that it isn't easy, even with better financial backing than we have.

Sure, Shef Utd had two consecutive seasons in the Premier League, but could that turn out to be a one off? A bit lucky? Fortuitous? Certainly no bounce back for them. The fact is, out of four seasons, only 2 teams have managed three consecutive seasons or more. Fulham have had two single season stays and at least a third one of those going into this season.

 

[Monty13 2,239]

20 minutes ago, Indy said:

I like Ricardo am content with being a yo-yo club, it’s difficult to see anything other as being looked at as success. As Nutty correctly states not every club can be in the top 20, there are bigger clubs than us in the third tier!

I would expect that if we get relegated that we at least rebuild to be stronger in the areas we failed in the previous season and definitely think each time up in the premiership we should look stronger even if relegated and I can’t say that’s happening at present!

The past five years have been a great ride, the fans and club in general have been very connected on and off field, it’s just this past season we appear to have seen our best player sold, the club looking to buy young players with one eye on future sales, Webber not really communicating with the fans very well and Farke being rightly sacked but replaced with another sacked manger from a club who spent far more money and we’re only three places above us.
 

It’s all gone a bit sour with wrong type records broken in the premiership, not real improvement in performance, a manager who the majority of fans still question even after 9 months and losing yesterday was always going to see massive negative questions being raised.

I think that’s a good point, relegation and yo-yo is relatively acceptable if there is an obvious progression.

I don’t think it can go on for long though without an eventual souring of relationships and mental fatigue if we don’t stay up at least one season or at least give it a good fight.

[Robert N. LiM 4,442]

This is such an interesting, civilised discussion: this board at its best.

Two things to add to recent posts by @ricardo, @chickenet. al. 

1) I think there's a moral dimension to this too. Forest are paying Lingard £200k per week in their attempt to compete. At what point do you say, enough is enough, we're not playing this game?

2) It would be interesting to ask a Burnley fan to list their five best moments of the last five seasons and compare them with ours. Given financial constraints, they're what we're aspiring to in terms of a club that managed a good stint in the PL. But I doubt they had as much fun as us under DF. The marketing machine of the PL is so pervasive it's hard not to be swept up in it. But it isn't the be-all and end-all. The Farke era is right up there for me with the Stringer/Walker era in terms of sheer enjoyment, even though it only really contained two great moments at the top level (the Man City win and the penalties at Spurs). 

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Robert N. LiM
typo

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

15 hours ago, Petriix said:

What if they were a group of misfits, cast-offs and youth players operating well above their natural level due to the exceptional coaching and tactics of a once in a lifetime manager?

 

A few years ago, much to the annoyance of some, I ran a cup competition on here featuring a random draw of all Norwich's last 24 or so squads in a cup competition, with fans voting for the theoretical victor. Farke's title winners 18/19 ran out victors.

It may be hard to remember, but this squad won the league very much out of the blue. Following an uninspiring mid-table finish before, this squad was very much lamented as a group of misfits, cast-offs and youth players.

It would be very interesting to see the comments from the end of the 17/18 season on the players we now love and revere. I remember Mario Vrancic getting a particular pasting. Certainly this squad was felt to be far inferior to the teams we had previously with players like Howson etc. Generally we had felt there was no genuine quality in the team and the players were a group of chancers and punts obtained mainly from the German third tier. Indeed the same attitude was directed at Farke, and he still has this millstone around his neck with some.

Fast forward and now the quality of the players is undoubted.

But there are parallels here I think with Lambert. Lambert got a group of ordinary, albeit determined and hungry players playing above their general ability, or at least he got them all playing in a purple patch which few of them replicated again. Ironic somewhat that after thinking he was better than Norwich, Lambert himself never replicated his purple patch, and the lack of success he has had since really makes you wonder about the midas touch he had here and possibly what he threw away by jilting us for Villa.

Ditto Mike Walker.

 

It remains to be seen whether Farke is Paul Lambert Mark 2, a coach who fails to ever replicate their purple patch with us, or whether he is the genuine article. Moechengladbach will be the acid test I guess

[Monty13 2,239]

3 minutes ago, chicken said:

Sort of. I think I posted about this before. Since we first gained promotion with Farke, only two teams have managed more seasons in the premier league than us.

2018-19
Norwich
Sheffield Utd
Villa

2019-20
Leeds
WBA
Fulham

2020-21
Norwich
Watford
Brentford

2021-22
Fulham
Bournemouth
Nottingham Forrest

Total number of seasons in the premier league for each of those teams including the current campaign:

1 season: WBA
2 seasons: Shef Utd, Norwich, Fulham, Brentford
3 seasons: Leeds
4 seasons: Villa

Watford and Bournemouth were in the premier league already and relegated with us at the end of the 19/20 campaign you can probably add one to Fulham for the 2018-19 season too if you wanted to. When you look at all of that, when you consider the financial backing of Leeds, Villa, Fulham, Watford, Bournemouth... it just underlines that it isn't easy, even with better financial backing than we have.

Sure, Shef Utd had two consecutive seasons in the Premier League, but could that turn out to be a one off? A bit lucky? Fortuitous? Certainly no bounce back for them. The fact is, out of four seasons, only 2 teams have managed three consecutive seasons or more. Fulham have had two single season stays and at least a third one of those going into this season.

 

Very short window you are using and the context is did they avoid relegation and if not by how much?

I don’t believe a club like ours will ever establish (depending on what that means to people) ourselves in the PL at this point. We will always be a club that swaps the two divisions (hopefully) but the manner of those PL seasons matter IMO.

[Robert N. LiM 4,442]

1 minute ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

It may be hard to remember, but this squad won the league very much out of the blue. Following an uninspiring mid-table finish before, this squad was very much lamented as a group of misfits, cast-offs and youth players

Excellent point. I went to our game vs Fulham towards the end of that season. We lost 2-0 and were completely outclassed. I vividly remember being close to ending my thirty-odd years of supporting the club. We just seemed so far short of being competitive, of getting back to a Premier League that I find pretty disgusting anyway. I was really struggling to see the point of it all any more. 

If you'd told me on the way out of the ground that day that we'd win two titles in the following three seasons and beat Abu Dhabi FC in thrilling style along the way, I would have had you sectioned.

[Monty13 2,239]

3 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

This is such an interesting, civilised discussion: this board at its best.

Two things to add to recent posts by @ricardo, @chickenet. al. 

1) I think there's a moral dimension to this too. Forest are paying Lingard £200k per week in their attempt to compete. At what point do you say, enough is enough, we're not playing this game?

2) It would be interesting to ask a Burnley fan to list their five best moments of the last five seasons and compare them with ours. Given financial constraints, they're what we're aspiring to in terms of a club that managed a good stint in the PL. But I doubt they had as much fun as us under DF. The marketing machine of the PL is so pervasive it's hard not to be swept up in it. But it isn't the be-all and end-all. The Farke era is right up there for me with the Stringer/Walker era in terms of sheer enjoyment, even though it only really contained two great moments at the top level (the Man City win and the penalities at Spurs). 

 

 

 

1) If I understand the Lingard deal correctly it makes sense to me, yes it’s a hell of a lot of money but it’s over the PL season. He’s a phenomenal player on his day and they are insulated from the financial fallout if relegated, as I said if I understand it correctly.

2) Just to make my position clear I don’t think we will ever spend more than a few seasons in the PL at the time, certainly not without substantial changes to the league and/or our financial position. But to me that doesn’t make PL seasons write offs, they need to be approached with an intention across the board to put every effort in to stay (within constraints) as best as we can and come back stronger if we fail. 

[priceyrice 123]

16 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

Very weak on his part if that’s what he did, no?

This is the sporting director model. I am sure I recall Farke saying in his early days he didn't want to be involved with transfers and the bigger picture stuff and wanted to focus on coaching. I'm sure he identifies positions and type of player he wants for the squad but he doesn't go out and scout the players or take control of any negotiations. 

 

[BigFish 1,988]

2 hours ago, Monty13 said:

I disagree on that point, he did it once. I struggle to see the evidence that second Championship winning title wasn’t with objectively one of, if not (IMO) the strongest team in the league. Only a couple of squads were even close in quality IMO and nobody else had a player of Buendias calibre.

I almost fully agree with the rest of what you said though. You can’t out technical better quality technical teams, at least not consistently enough to stay up.

My only caveat would be IMO Farke lost his job for agreeing to the recruitment strategy and thus making himself the obvious sacrifice when it didn’t work.

In truth in that second year we had a couple of average Prem standard players as did the other promoted sides, both of which were gone before we kicked-off in the Prem. Gap between the Chumps and even the bottom of the Prem is enormous and the team may have been one of the strongest in a weak league. Still doesn't make it anymore than a sows ear of a squad.

[TheGunnShow 5,977]

3 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Have a lot of respect for this view, Ricardo, and think I agree. I just find it difficult to think it would be the majority view at CR after yet another limp defeat. Think it could have turned toxic very quickly. At least this way Daniel left before that happened, with his reputation intact. The least he deserves given what he brought to this club.

I'd agree that Farke's removal was basically a mercy killing to preserve his reputation and image amongst the fans, as he did deserve to leave with his head held high.

Edited July 31, 2022 by TheGunnShow