5 subs / Squad depth/ Dean Smith

[NCFChapman 14]

Just a few thoughts about somthing that I don't think has been talked about much. For a start, the obvious, it's unlikely we'll get as many points as last time in the champs and we definitely won't look as pretty while doing it. 

However, a massive positive we have for games that we are chasing or looking deadlocked is a manager that is more than willing to switch a game up, the 5 sub rule and the players we have at our disposal. Having the option of bringing Hugill, Idah and Sargent against a tiring defence is great for this level imo. Idah and Sargent are still young and lack of injuries permitting, I think will start slow but both will contribute to a good season and improve along the way.

Also not likely to be starters, Dowell who we know is plenty capable for the champioship and always looks to create something. We've got Argos and also Jon Rowe who I really hope kicks on this season. If he can look dangerous against Liverpool coming off the bench think what he could do with more experience and against lower quality teams. 

At this moment in time because of Buendia and Skipp I'd rather have the 20/21 starting 11. I think there will be quite a few games where fans will be grumbling and unhappy at half time but the players and options we have from the bench to switch a game up at this level is something I think we can be positive and excited about. 

OTBC

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,749]

5 subs should definitely make a difference to clubs with a stronger squad in a league

Dont buy any of Klopp's nonsense about fitness, its about the better teams being able to tactically utilise a stronger bench in game

I dont agree with it as 3 subs is plenty enough but we'll take it in this league!

Assuming Smith's attacking choice in his 1st XI is..

      Sargent     Cantwell      Rashica

                          Pukki

We could have a bench which contains

Hugill Idah Dowell Hernandez Sinani

 of which Smith could use any of all of.

There's any number of permutations , options and formations that Smith could use off the bench to influence/change a game

That said I can see us managing to lose 1-0 today

[cambridgeshire canary 6,717]

Bringing on Idah and Hugill up top in a two in the 70th minute should be enough to scare most championship defenders

[Capt. Pants 4,234]

I hope we play the way Dean Smith's  Brentford and Villa did in the Championship. Lumping long balls to a couple of tall strikers will be meat and drink to defenders in this league.

We know how to play and win this league and the style that is required to do it. 

[Robert N. LiM 4,344]

11 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

I dont agree with it as 3 subs is plenty enough but we'll take it in this league!

 

Makes a nice change for us to be on the positive end of an unfair league!

[Robert N. LiM 4,344]

Just now, Capt. Pants said:

I hope we play the way Dean Smith's  Brentford and Villa did in the Championship. Lumping long balls to a couple of tall strikers will be meat and drink to defenders in this league.

We know how to play and win this league and the style that is required to do it. 

imho it's about striking a balance between a style that can be successful in this league and one that can be carried forward into the Premier League. Not sure if Smith can do it, but that's my hope. We need to be strong defensively but press and attack at pace. I loved Farke's teams but his style just wasn't replicable at our budget in the top league. Personally I'd be happy if it took Smith two years in the Champs to get it right, if that meant a more competitive year in the PL when we finally got there. But I do realise this is a high-risk strategy...

[Greavsy 2,413]

1 hour ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Bringing on Idah and Hugill up top in a two in the 70th minute should be enough to scare most championship defenders

Is that the same Hugill we were never going to see in an ncfc shirt again? 😛 

[unique 435]

1 hour ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Bringing on Idah and Hugill up top in a two in the 70th minute should be enough to scare most championship defenders

Tongue firmly in cheek I hope…..

[Branston Pickle 3,657]

1 hour ago, Capt. Pants said:

I hope we play the way Dean Smith's  Brentford and Villa did in the Championship. Lumping long balls to a couple of tall strikers will be meat and drink to defenders in this league.

We know how to play and win this league and the style that is required to do it. 

I imagine that’s the way he wants us to play - the signings of Hayden, Sara and Nunez suggest it is.  Imo many don’t seem to realise what a ****show last season was in terms of having to cut his cloth according to who was available - we saw decent signs in early games, then when Covid and injuries hit we were largely just firefighting.  Hopefully with a preseason and players fit we’ll have a fairer view of what he’s about.  If it doesn’t work for us then fine, but he deserves a chance.

I have to say that the change in Todd had been interesting, too - it’s early doors but he just looks to have rediscovered his mojo.  He was pretty hopeless and unselectable last season, so having him back is definitely the equivalent of a new signing.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[komakino 272]

My main concern is exactly the same as last season - where are the goals coming from? 

I not hopeful for today and I think it will be a slow start, but hopefully once we have a settled side we can start to move forwards, though whether that will be enough remains to be seen. 

[chicken 2,624]

1 hour ago, Capt. Pants said:

I hope we play the way Dean Smith's  Brentford and Villa did in the Championship. Lumping long balls to a couple of tall strikers will be meat and drink to defenders in this league.

We know how to play and win this league and the style that is required to do it. 

I really, really, really struggle to see where this kind of view comes from.

Hitting it long is either a tactical decision or style - see Pulis teams - or part of a mixed approach to keep switching it up (which I personally like as it keeps people guessing) or, which I think we saw last season, the act of a desperate team trying to relieve pressure. It's the easiest thing to do, to swing your boot through it.

However, I don't think that is Smith's style or approach either. We've certainly not seen any of it in pre-season, even when playing up to the likes of Hugill. Yes, against Marseille, he scored two headed goals, but those were from good bits of wing play.

I think it will all depend upon how disciplined and committed the players are as to how we keep the ball and play with it. Wins will help the confidence for that too. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

2 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

5 subs should definitely make a difference to clubs with a stronger squad in a league

Dont buy any of Klopp's nonsense about fitness, its about the better teams being able to tactically utilise a stronger bench in game

I dont agree with it as 3 subs is plenty enough but we'll take it in this league!

Assuming Smith's attacking choice in his 1st XI is..

      Sargent     Cantwell      Rashica

                          Pukki

We could have a bench which contains

Hugill Idah Dowell Hernandez Sinani

 of which Smith could use any of all of.

There's any number of permutations , options and formations that Smith could use off the bench to influence/change a game

That said I can see us managing to lose 1-0 today

Sorry pal, but that bit in bold is missing a bit - Klopp is absolutely right that it's about fitness - so whilst you're right that there is a fair bit about using a bench in a game, it's also about giving players that bit more rest during the season. If you know you're only playing 60 or so, you can go that bit harder. On top of that, and this is the key bit, you have more time to recover, having usually not done quite as much.

That's how you ward off fatigue, prevent some injuries, and generally keep players fresher going into the later stages of the season. It's very much about fitness.

Edited July 30, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[daly 501]

1 hour ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Bringing on Idah and Hugill up top in a two in the 70th minute should be enough to scare most championship defenders

Yes their records speak for themselves 

I would think most teams would have sleepless nights at the mention of that pair coming on in the 70th minute 

[pete 319]

One place on bench nailed down Sorensen adaptable  as CB, RB, LB and midfield.  5 subs does seem a little restricting especially to a team susceptible to injuries. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,749]

49 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Sorry pal, but that bit in bold is missing a bit - Klopp is absolutely right that it's about fitness - so whilst you're right that there is a fair bit about using a bench in a game, it's also about giving players that bit more rest during the season. If you know you're only playing 60 or so, you can go that bit harder. On top of that, and this is the key bit, you have more time to recover, having usually not done quite as much.

That's how you ward off fatigue, prevent some injuries, and generally keep players fresher going into the later stages of the season. It's very much about fitness.

Nonsense...liverpool and man city for that matter will bring on another top quality sub to further sway the game in their favour...if liverpool are behind in a game , itll be nothing to do with fitness, itll be about bringing on yet another striker to help them

Even with 5 subs available to them they rarely use them

Shame on the rest of the premier lge for giving in to them

Edited July 30, 2022 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[norfolkngood 1,087]

2 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

I hope we play the way Dean Smith's  Brentford and Villa did in the Championship. Lumping long balls to a couple of tall strikers will be meat and drink to defenders in this league.

We know how to play and win this league and the style that is required to do it. 

You are right there 

Lesser defenders would prefer long ball in the Air  than a tricky fast player or balls getting passed around on the deck 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 hour ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Nonsense...liverpool and man city for that matter will bring on another top quality sub to further sway the game in their favour...if liverpool are behind in a game , itll be nothing to do with fitness, itll be about bringing on yet another striker to help them

Even with 5 subs available to them they rarely use them

Shame on the rest of the premier lge for giving in to them

Nope, fitness and recovery is definitely a key factor. Just because they don't use all the subs all the time doesn't mean the opposite. If they have so many top-quality players like they do, they'll rotate a shade more between games if they think the current line-up should do the job during the game itself.

A more threadbare squad means they'll have nearly all the same eleven out more often, and for longer in games. That's the kind of thing that catches up down the stretch, or causes more injuries.

[canarybubbles 1,915]

4 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

imho it's about striking a balance between a style that can be successful in this league and one that can be carried forward into the Premier League. Not sure if Smith can do it, but that's my hope. We need to be strong defensively but press and attack at pace. I loved Farke's teams but his style just wasn't replicable at our budget in the top league. Personally I'd be happy if it took Smith two years in the Champs to get it right, if that meant a more competitive year in the PL when we finally got there. But I do realise this is a high-risk strategy...

As one of the anti-Smith brigade, this worries me. We're starting to see a change from 'he deserves until Christmas' to 'he deserves two seasons'. No, if he fails to at least make the play-offs he's had two seasons, and failed in both of them.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,749]

36 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Nope, fitness and recovery is definitely a key factor. Just because they don't use all the subs all the time doesn't mean the opposite. If they have so many top-quality players like they do, they'll rotate a shade more between games if they think the current line-up should do the job during the game itself.

A more threadbare squad means they'll have nearly all the same eleven out more often, and for longer in games. That's the kind of thing that catches up down the stretch, or causes more injuries.

If liverpool or man city are coasting a game 3 or 4 nil going into the last 20 mins then yes, they can then rest players like this

But if the gsme is in the balance or theyre behind make no mistake , fitness wont come into it, theyll use their 5 subs in accordance with what the in game situation is with a higher standard of player to turn a game.

Best case in point, our FA Cup qtr final vs Man Utd a couple of seasons ago whete they had 5 subs to use and another in extra time.

We took the lead and they finished the game with 6 strikers on the pitch to turn it their way. Those subs were nothing to do with fitness

Edited July 30, 2022 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[Monty13 2,234]

19 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Nope, fitness and recovery is definitely a key factor. Just because they don't use all the subs all the time doesn't mean the opposite. If they have so many top-quality players like they do, they'll rotate a shade more between games if they think the current line-up should do the job during the game itself.

A more threadbare squad means they'll have nearly all the same eleven out more often, and for longer in games. That's the kind of thing that catches up down the stretch, or causes more injuries.

None of that changes the fact it gives bigger teams with stronger squads a huge advantage.

The argument you are having seems completely semantic, by keeping their best players fresh and injury free through having a strong squad it gives bigger teams a massive advantage.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

14 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

None of that changes the fact it gives bigger teams with stronger squads a huge advantage.

The argument you are having seems completely semantic, by keeping their best players fresh and injury free through having a strong squad it gives bigger teams a massive advantage.

Yep, that bit in bold is exactly my point, and precisely why Klopp is right re. fitness.

Edited July 30, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[Monty13 2,234]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Yep, that bit in bold is exactly my point, and precisely why Klopp is right re. fitness.

Like I said semantics, it’s about giving his team and advantage through improving his star player fitness. 

[komakino 272]

29 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

As one of the anti-Smith brigade, this worries me. We're starting to see a change from 'he deserves until Christmas' to 'he deserves two seasons'. No, if he fails to at least make the play-offs he's had two seasons, and failed in both of them.

Farke had a season and a bit to get his act together in the second tier, before it came together and won promotion in style. Failed in the EPL, successful in the Championship again, but failed again in the EPL. 

Smith failed in what was left in the EPL and that is far as he's got. Therefore it is unreasonable to place excess pressure on him because he doesn't come from Germany and doesn't give a two hundred word reply to an answer that requires one sentence. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 minute ago, Monty13 said:

Like I said semantics, it’s about giving his team and advantage through improving his star player fitness. 

Disagree a bit, there's definitely a player well-being matter in there. No-one's stopping other teams from having the same number of substitutions, or indeed developing more youth players that way.

Easy for me to see that side though with my running background, so we always get the importance of recovery hammered into us.

[Monty13 2,234]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Disagree a bit, there's definitely a player well-being matter in there. No-one's stopping other teams from having the same number of substitutions, or indeed developing more youth players that way.

Easy for me to see that side though with my running background, so we always get the importance of recovery hammered into us.

Im not saying that’s not a consideration at all, I’m just saying it hugely advantages bigger clubs. 

It’s only 5 subs so a lot of players are still playing the full 90, but instead of rotation, now big clubs can get their star players to influence more matches.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 minute ago, Monty13 said:

Im not saying that’s not a consideration at all, I’m just saying it hugely advantages bigger clubs. 

It’s only 5 subs so a lot of players are still playing the full 90, but instead of rotation, now big clubs can get their star players to influence more matches.

Then you're with me and disagreeing with GJL as his phrase was "Don't buy any of Klopp's nonsense about fitness". And that was my primary focus - fitness and injury prevention undoubtedly plays a part.

[Monty13 2,234]

Just now, TheGunnShow said:

Then you're with me and disagreeing with GJL as his phrase was "Don't buy any of Klopp's nonsense about fitness". And that was my primary focus - fitness and injury prevention undoubtedly plays a part.

Not exactly, I do think tactics and squad strength is a big driver behind the change as it advantages during matches ti better teams.

I’m just saying what you are saying is also a consideration, but even when it comes to fitness I think the main thrust is to advantage clubs over protecting players.

 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,749]

7 hours ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

5 subs should definitely make a difference to clubs with a stronger squad in a league

Dont buy any of Klopp's nonsense about fitness, its about the better teams being able to tactically utilise a stronger bench in game

I dont agree with it as 3 subs is plenty enough but we'll take it in this league!

Assuming Smith's attacking choice in his 1st XI is..

      Sargent     Cantwell      Rashica

                          Pukki

We could have a bench which contains

Hugill Idah Dowell Hernandez Sinani

 of which Smith could use any of all of.

There's any number of permutations , options and formations that Smith could use off the bench to influence/change a game

That said I can see us managing to lose 1-0 today

Sadly that last line was all too predictably true

We can have all the attacking options off the bench but the manager has never underpinned an attacking plan since he's been here