The Apologists Are A Man Down Tonight.

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

11 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

Because it enables posters to use infantile descriptions such as 'happy clappers' and 'apologists'. Sainty's tweet is interesting for at least two reasons. It shows an honesty to admit if not an error then at least an optimistic misjudgment. I look forward to certain high-profile posters (including perhaps some on this thread) ever doing the same.

It also does not say the model is wrong. Only that it can never work in the Premier League (I happen to think that is not necessarily true. It probably can work, at least for a while, but only if every decision is spot on, which sadly is unlikely, even with the best run clubs.)

There is a strong argument, exemplified by Chelsea perhaps being able to get away scot-free with running up debts of £1.5bn, that it is not the model that is wrong but the "Too much and never enough" membership requirement of the Premier League.

But if that membership requirement stays, and posters want to pass it to gain and keep admittance, then they need to get organised to put pressure on the current owners to sell up. Otherwise they are just apologists for their own inaction.

Delia 06/03/2022:

What about Norwich City? No, she and Michael are not selling, though if someone reasonable with money to spend came along, they would ask the supporters to vote on it. 

Perhaps Jim will finally accept that Times quote from six years ago about never selling is now outdated, since giving the supporters a vote certainly opens the door to a sale being approved irrespective of S&J's views.

So there is now no excuse for fans who want a change of ownership to carry on doing nothing except sounding off in cyberspace. All they have to do is find someone reasonable and loaded.

But I should say I doubt that S&J's definition of reasonable will ever include someone who racks up £1.5bn of debts on the off chance that they might then write them off at the end of their reign.

[hogesar 9,745]

6 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Delia 06/03/2022:

What about Norwich City? No, she and Michael are not selling, though if someone reasonable with money to spend came along, they would ask the supporters to vote on it. 

Perhaps Jim will finally accept that Times quote from six years ago about never selling is now outdated, since giving the supporters a vote certainly opens the door to a sale being approved irrespective of S&J's views.

So there is now no excuse for fans who want a change of ownership to carry on doing nothing except sounding off in cyberspace. All they have to do is find someone reasonable and loaded.

But I should say I doubt that S&J's definition of reasonable will ever include someone who racks up £1.5bn of debts on the off chance that they might then write them off at the end of their reign.

Yeah, read that this morning. It won't change anything on here mind.

[Dr Greenthumb 750]

2 hours ago, Indy_Bones said:

And were any clubs actually making bids for his services, because I don't remember seeing any genuine bids made for him from 'bigger' teams despite the usual rumouts floating around in the media.

Let's face it, if a genuinely better side had wanted him, he'd have been gone, but again, I didn't see anyone waving 30mil+ in Brentford's direction, so it's a bit disingenuous to try to use the "they didn't sell their best player" as a stick against the club isn't it, when the situations were quite different?

Do you know that for a fact? I’m not privy to all transfer bids behind the scenes, so cannot tell you whether or not Brentford received a bid for Ivan Toney.

Gain promotion, aim for 17th plus and sell to a mid table team. I’m going to keep beating that stick.
 

The poor transfers after shows the club had no preparation for this league whatsoever, or the personnel to conduct those transfers.  Losing Buendia and Skipp needed two huge transfers. Instead we have had to build a squad with relegated bundesliga players and very young, unproven players. It’s the cheap option and under this ownership, it always will be.

[Nora's Ghost 157]

Maybe we should 'do a Bury' and clear out the club and the stands and get some 'real people' in to run the place for proper supporters with a proper passion for the game.

 

The whole ethos of NCFC has gone to the dogs and we are now the footballing equivalent of the Eurovision Song Contest with the same embarrassing following.

[TIL 1010 4,794]

10 hours ago, chicken said:

So because we were 1-0 that automatically means Ajer was outstanding and an absolute snip at £13.5m and tells the entire story of the 1st half?

You must point out to me where i said Ajer was outstanding and an absolute snip at £13.5 million if you would be so kind.  Ajer was part of a defensive unit that did not concede a goal  until time added on in a game that virtually secured Premier survival for Brentford not forgetting of course they registered their first win in nine games.

 

[Evil Monkey 52]

TIL 1010 I have seen you on this forum for pretty much as long as I can remember - I think I joined about 2004. So I can reasonably assume that you're at least 18 years old.

 

Some might suggest that this post is the folly of youth, but I can guarantee there are more mature teenagers out there.

 

Be ashamed of yourself here, young man, because this is a new low.

[TIL 1010 4,794]

9 hours ago, (Hoola)Han Solo said:

To be fair to everybody mentioned on this thread, at least none of them are as arrogantly condescending and patronising as the bell end Mick Dennis.

Well i can think of a couple for sure.

[TIL 1010 4,794]

2 minutes ago, Evil Monkey said:

TIL 1010 I have seen you on this forum for pretty much as long as I can remember - I think I joined about 2004. So I can reasonably assume that you're at least 18 years old.

 

Some might suggest that this post is the folly of youth, but I can guarantee there are more mature teenagers out there.

 

Be ashamed of yourself here, young man, because this is a new low.

You really haven't a clue .

[Robert N. LiM 4,487]

49 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yeah, read that this morning. It won't change anything on here mind.

That was the quintessential Delia interview. I read it imagining the spluttering from her detractors on here. Personally I loved it: she really is a remarkable woman. She and Michael certainly shouldn't be above criticism, but it's not hard to see why, in a football landscape that is corrupted beyond belief, there's so much affection for them.

[Badger 2,412]

14 hours ago, chicken said:

The latter of which rarely, if ever, happen. Usually the debt arrives at the expense of the owner loaning money against the club. And then, like Abramovic can slink off debt free with a club left with billions to account for... 

I don't think that you look at many club accounts (quite reasonably, we are not all nerds 😄) but this isn't the case.

Why do you think that there are a number of clubs as big (if not bigger) than us have not been near the Premier league for years - Sheff Wed, Birmingham, Portsmouth, Ipswich, Nottingham Forest, Coventry etc.

And then there is the other group that have had a season or two in the premier league but have been unable to get back because of their owners legacy of overspending - Sunderland, Bolton, Charlton, Reading, Hull, Blackburn, QPR etc.

The trouble is that people look at a few great examples (mainly Leicester, Man City Chelsea and now Newcastle) and see this as the norm, when in fact, they are outliers and exceptions.

I'd probably be labelled by some an apologist but I have no particular allegiance to Delia + I'd be ecstatic with a multi-billionaire ready to gift us hundreds of billions of pounds but then I'd like global peace and universal happiness too. However, as a grown-up, I accept that achieving what I want is not as simple as some seem to believe.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Badger
Tried to tone down the unnecessarily confrontational tone

[essex canary 506]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

Delia 06/03/2022:

What about Norwich City? No, she and Michael are not selling, though if someone reasonable with money to spend came along, they would ask the supporters to vote on it. 

 

Who would act as judge and jury on whether the someone is 'reasonable' or determine which persons qualify for a vote?

 

[Badger 2,412]

12 hours ago, City 2nd said:

1) It would, wouldn’t it?
2) Why should investment mean ‘debt’.

yes I hold a grudge against the current owners

3) what have they ever done to make NCFC a top 17 EPL side. They are proving they are totally inept as owners at this level. 

1) A few million is chicken feed and would have very little impact. 

2) Because in most cases the owners lend the club money rather than give it.

3) I don't doubt that you have a grudge, that doesn't bother me. What worries me more is that people think that taking on big debt to finance football operations (rather than, eg, to fund ground developments) is a sensible approach to running a football club in the long term.

[City 2nd 191]

1 minute ago, Badger said:

1) A few million is chicken feed and would have very little impact. 

2) Because in most cases the owners lend the club money rather than give it.

3) I don't doubt that you have a grudge, that doesn't bother me. What worries me more is that people think that taking on big debt to finance football operations (rather than, eg, to fund ground developments) is a sensible approach to running a football club in the long term.

1) How much is a few million ( which in case you haven’t noticed our owners haven’t got)!

2) owners, particularly those of NCFC, may lend money. The majority don’t!

3) if you think the funding of ground development is more important than football operations it shows exactly the problems NCFC have are much much bigger than anyone thought! Don’t you have to be an attractive football team to fill a football ground and certainly our club isn’t. A beautiful ground and training facilities don’t bring you league points! Nor does an enforced cap on players wages, transfers, or self funding operations!

[Badger 2,412]

14 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

What ' position ' would that be in relation to Ajer in this particular case ?

I think it would be that Ajer wasn't worth the £20 million that he will cost Brentford and that we had a lucky escape in this respect at least.

On the basis of what I saw I would tend to agree.

[Badger 2,412]

13 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

But if that membership requirement stays, and posters want to pass it to gain and keep admittance, then they need to get organised to put pressure on the current owners to sell up. Otherwise they are just apologists for their own inaction.

Getting rid of the current owners would be the easy bit - it's getting the multi-billionaire happy to give us hundreds of millions that they might find to be the real challenge.

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

18 minutes ago, essex canary said:

Who would act as judge and jury on whether the someone is 'reasonable' or determine which persons qualify for a vote?

 

Delia has asked me to play that role. Hardly a surprise, since I am the obvious choice, respected and admired in equal measure by all posters here.

[nutty nigel 7,623]

2 hours ago, king canary said:

Indeed. Its always quite funny though that some like to act as if its only the more negative/anti Delia/MWJ types that do this as if the term 'pant wetters' isn't extremely common place.

So are 'pant wetters' realists? 

As far as I can see apologists is an umbrella term covering those who defend all views.

 

[Badger 2,412]

2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

It might well be a game changer though if, for example, it enables you to keep your star player after promotion who is involved in about 85% of your goals, rather than flogging him before a ball has been kicked.

 

It wouldn't have - he wanted to leave. We have been through this so many times. Todd's season has given us a good example of how successful keeping an unhappy player is.

 

2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

Or to enable you to sign the defensive midfielder you desperately needed.

But would it get you said player? If he was a definite premier league class defensive midfielder, why would he come to a newly promoted club - he would have better options.

2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

But our lack of financial clout underpins everything. 

So you go back to "the model" of someone (presumably a multi-billionaire) gifting us hundreds of millions because a few million isn't going to enable us to "catch up" the hundreds of millions extra that "established" premier league teams have had over the last 10 years!

 

 

 

[hogesar 9,745]

32 minutes ago, essex canary said:

Who would act as judge and jury on whether the someone is 'reasonable' or determine which persons qualify for a vote?

 

Hopefully our owners and board who have literal years of experience running and owning a football club and therefore knowing the finances associated.

[A Load of Squit 5,221]

36 minutes ago, essex canary said:

Who would act as judge and jury on whether the someone is 'reasonable' or determine which persons qualify for a vote?

 

Not you.

[Badger 2,412]

23 minutes ago, City 2nd said:

1) How much is a few million ( which in case you haven’t noticed our owners haven’t got)!

 

You tell me - you are the one that seems to think it is easy to get a billionaire to chip in. Do you think that £10 million would be enough? £100 million? £300 million - what are the sums you are talking about that you would expect from our new owners. Nobody ever says...

 

25 minutes ago, City 2nd said:

2) owners, particularly those of NCFC, may lend money. The majority don’t!

Simply not true - they lend it, sometimes secured against the ground which they hold in another company.

27 minutes ago, City 2nd said:

3) if you think the funding of ground development is more important than football operations it shows exactly the problems NCFC have are much much bigger than anyone thought! Don’t you have to be an attractive football team to fill a football ground and certainly our club isn’t. A beautiful ground and training facilities don’t bring you league points! Nor does an enforced cap on players wages, transfers, or self funding operations!

If you don't expand the ground, you make the need for subsidy a permanent feature, although you probably don't think that this is an issue because there is a long list of people queueing to give us money on a permanent basis. If you don't have good training facilities you cannot attract good players.

[Trevor Hockey's Beard 528]

I don't think that the yo-yoing is helping at all.

 I seems clear that doing well in the Championship is not a good indicator of how a club will fair in the Premier League. Under Farke we won two promotions playing attractive football which we all loved watching, but it was more in the style of a Man City without the elite players that billions in the bank can buy. 

This didn't prepare us for the physical battle of surviving against the mid table 7th to 17th teams. In both cases a number of factors have prevented us from recruiting to make us harder to beat; some signings have failed to meet our expectations, but more signings probably failed to materialise due to our wage structure; and even more signings were probably never a realistic proposition due to being less attractive than an established club, or just outbid.

Mr Sainty is right: we cannot compete in the Premier League with this Model. Is the Model wrong? I hope not. I still believe in the Model, but being a believer currently feels like martyrdom as it comes with a lot of pain.

Brentford spent a few years doing well, but missing out on promotion. Maybe we need to do the same, building a team around a strong physical core of players before seeking to add in the flair.

[Monty13 2,252]

4 hours ago, Indy_Bones said:

And were any clubs actually making bids for his services, because I don't remember seeing any genuine bids made for him from 'bigger' teams despite the usual rumouts floating around in the media.

Let's face it, if a genuinely better side had wanted him, he'd have been gone, but again, I didn't see anyone waving 30mil+ in Brentford's direction, so it's a bit disingenuous to try to use the "they didn't sell their best player" as a stick against the club isn't it, when the situations were quite different?

Did Brentford put him in a shop window? Or did other clubs assume it wasn’t worth the cash to try and prize him free. What other clubs would have been willing to pay probably wasn’t acceptable to Brentford in the position they were in.

In comparison we made it very clear our top talents were avail r for a price and that Buendia in particular was available to the highest bidder.

The two situations aren’t the same.

[hogesar 9,745]

58 minutes ago, Badger said:

You tell me - you are the one that seems to think it is easy to get a billionaire to chip in. Do you think that £10 million would be enough? £100 million? £300 million - what are the sums you are talking about that you would expect from our new owners. Nobody ever says...

 

Simply not true - they lend it, sometimes secured against the ground which they hold in another company.

If you don't expand the ground, you make the need for subsidy a permanent feature, although you probably don't think that this is an issue because there is a long list of people queueing to give us money on a permanent basis. If you don't have good training facilities you cannot attract good players.

For me, I think we likely need circa £150 million in transfer fees upon promotion (with the understanding this guarantees nothing). I reckon to compete with wages whilst in the prem they'll probably need to commit another £20 ish million a season on top of all our income. If we get relegated they'll need deep pockets to subsidise us over a period of time till we get promoted again (for till,  read if).

You can see why finding a sensible buyer with the required funds might not be as simple as shouting "clubs for sale" out of the Gunn Club window.

[TIL 1010 4,794]

3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

For me, I think we likely need circa £150 million in transfer fees upon promotion (with the understanding this guarantees nothing). I reckon to compete with wages whilst in the prem they'll probably need to commit another £20 ish million a season on top of all our income. If we get relegated they'll need deep pockets to subsidise us over a period of time till we get promoted again (for till,  read if).

You can see why finding a sensible buyer with the required funds might not be as simple as shouting "clubs for sale" out of the Gunn Club window.

There aren't any windows in The Gunn Club. 😜

[Badger 2,412]

4 hours ago, essex canary said:

Who would act as judge and jury on whether the someone is 'reasonable' or determine which persons qualify for a vote?

 

Well one criterion could be purchase of new equity. If they bought up £200 million of new equity in the club that would be a good start in identifying their good intentions!

[Dr Greenthumb 750]

13 hours ago, hogesar said:

I thought Ajer was rubbish today and it was criminal Rashica didn't run at him more after the yellow 

It was criminal he was still On the pitch by half time 

[chicken 2,642]

5 hours ago, Badger said:

I don't think that you look at many club accounts (quite reasonably, we are not all nerds 😄) but this isn't the case.

Why do you think that there are a number of clubs as big (if not bigger) than us have not been near the Premier league for years - Sheff Wed, Birmingham, Portsmouth, Ipswich, Nottingham Forest, Coventry etc.

And then there is the other group that have had a season or two in the premier league but have been unable to get back because of their owners legacy of overspending - Sunderland, Bolton, Charlton, Reading, Hull, Blackburn, QPR etc.

The trouble is that people look at a few great examples (mainly Leicester, Man City Chelsea and now Newcastle) and see this as the norm, when in fact, they are outliers and exceptions.

I'd probably be labelled by some an apologist but I have no particular allegiance to Delia + I'd be ecstatic with a multi-billionaire ready to gift us hundreds of billions of pounds but then I'd like global peace and universal happiness too. However, as a grown-up, I accept that achieving what I want is not as simple as some seem to believe.

I think you may not get me... many of the so called clubs that splash the cash, do not do so directly with the actual cash of the mega wealthy owners. Mega rich people get mega rich for a reason... largely because they don't like to give money away. Some people will say "quite rightly". However that greatly contradicts with this idea that these people come in and help project clubs higher up the leagues.

The reality is, most of the owners loan clubs money - they don't give it. When you look higher up the league the more debt you see clubs are in to their owners, to the tune of billions in some cases. That's a house of cards waiting to come crashing down. Look at Abramovic, his rubles reduced to pennies now wants to cash in on Chelsea for billions.

https://www.1sports1.com/ranked-premier-league-clubs-with-the-most-debts/

In fact, much like how the wonderful arms dealer took over at Ipswich and instantly laden them with debt, then when they struggled, did so again.

[chicken 2,642]

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

For me, I think we likely need circa £150 million in transfer fees upon promotion (with the understanding this guarantees nothing). I reckon to compete with wages whilst in the prem they'll probably need to commit another £20 ish million a season on top of all our income. If we get relegated they'll need deep pockets to subsidise us over a period of time till we get promoted again (for till,  read if).

You can see why finding a sensible buyer with the required funds might not be as simple as shouting "clubs for sale" out of the Gunn Club window.

I don't think it's fees. I think it's more about wages IMHO. Take Ings for example, £25m seems a steal, but how much are they paying in wages? No doubt it is the best part of £100k per week. Mid table sides and upwards are paying that for players. Rumours, if they are to be believed have the top earner at Norwich on around £40-50k per week.

[FenwayFrank 2,467]

2 minutes ago, chicken said:

Rumours, if they are to be believed have the top earner at Norwich on around £40-50k per week.

I really hope it’s Mclean 😉