In hindsight - Farke's comments on Cantwell

[Google Bot 3,298]

Now that a little more water has passed under the bridge and it seems most supporters on the same page of wanting Cantwell to leave for everyone's best intentions.  I read a few quotes on an article that popped up, here:-

 https://www.shieldsgazette.com/sport/football/newcastle-united/former-norwich-city-boss-explains-why-todd-cantwell-fell-out-of-favour-at-carrow-road-a-ps15m-gamble-for-newcastle-united-3522658

As everyone can probably remember, those quotes made by Farke were:

"“Sadly I have to say with Todd the last couple of months, I can’t remember one full training week when he was available for the full week."

“We speak a lot. Especially with the younger players. Sometimes they need an arm around the shoulder. Sometimes it is tougher love. Younger players have to learn and experience these things. But Todd is not 18 anymore. It is not difficult."

"The rules are clear for each player. You have to be physically and mentally prepared and show consistency in training and be available. The standards and the levels are the same for every player.”

During this period I was torn and willing to give Todd the benefit of the doubt, and towards Farke's final few weeks here I felt that the problem laid at his feet and Todd was being unfairly treated.

Feel a bit of a wally now, as reading this back Farke had it spot on.  Just felt the need to post this really, as hindsight has made me feel quite regretful in my thoughts at the time.  Anyone else feel the same?

[Indy 3,307]

I think Farke was an absolutely brilliant man manager and gets criticised from some on here as freezing players out, but in general has been proved correct in doing so!

Shame we had such a poor run at the start of the season, still it’s being mirrored now by Smith.

Whilst I believe the squad we have isn’t good enough for the premiership I think they have under performed and continue to do so. Smith is a very nice guy and possibly why he might also fail. We might need that Pulis / Colin type to get more out of this bunch!

[TheGunnShow 5,957]

Just now, Indy said:

I think Farke was an absolutely brilliant man manager and gets criticised from some on here as freezing players out, but in general has been proved correct in doing so!

Shame we had such a poor run at the start of the season, still it’s being mirrored now by Smith.

Whilst I believe the squad we have isn’t good enough for the premiership I think they have under performed and continue to do so. Smith is a very nice guy and possibly why he might also fail. We might need that Pulis / Colin type to get more out of this bunch!

Totally agreed. Only needs one shaky apple to ruin a bunch. Farke was good at picking them out.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

12 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Just felt the need to post this really, as hindsight has made me feel quite regretful in my thoughts at the time.  Anyone else feel the same?

Not really, I did think that Cantwell being given another chance under Smith was one upside to sacking Farke, but I didn't really expect Cantwell to take that chance, too big for his boots and think he has it made. Interestingly Darren Huckerby, a master of Cantwell's own position, once said that he told young players they hadn't "made it" until they'd played 150 games... Cantwell hasn't reached that landmark yet. 

[Mason 47 1,388]

I often said the same to friends who regularly berated Farkes treatment of Todd. A whole production line of talent willing to cite DF as a massive influence on their development, but then supposedly he went mad and froze Cantwell out with zero justification?

On the other hand, Farke did have a habit of freezing players out; but when that list includes Oliveira, Watkins, Leitner, Edwards, Ben Marshall and Patrick Roberts, it isn't hard to see a trend.

 

[lake district canary 4,540]

I think Farke was right and said so at the time, but I also understood why some thought he was being vindictive. The real problem is  that if you treat players too harshly these days, there is that risk you will aliemate them. Farke got away with it the previous season when he left out Cantwell and Buendia - and got a response from them in terms of the way they settled back down, but a year on, Cantwell (annoyingly) was not going to take it again.  Add to that the Gilmour dropping and the hype around him and it is easy to see why that, combined with Cantwell, would have upset things behind the scenes in the squad - especially with new players to the club not being familiar with Farke's ways and with so many senior Farke players having left. The balance had gone.

On a wider note, it is the ability to manage these top players' egos that is a big issue for  managers these days. If you are a Tuchel or a Guardiola, you have the earned authority to expect a certain behaviour, but if you are a lesser manager at a smaller club, you run the risk of player unrest ruining your plans if you are too authoritarian. I would support any manager who stood up to players who let their egos get the better of them, but at the same time, you have to recognise it is a dangerous thing for them to do.  Rightly or wrongly (wrongly imo) too often it is the players who ultimately get a manager sacked.  The tail wagging the dog.

I liked Farke for many reasons, including standing up to Oliveira, Leitner, Cantwell and Buendia et al, but this season, his policy of standing up to players like Cantwell was part of his downfall.

Edited January 12, 2022 by lake district canary

[Uncle Fred 526]

I called it long ago and got slaughtered for it

now you know I was right

[TheGunnShow 5,957]

Think Lakey's made - indirectly - a very good point when referring to "senior Farke players" that in quickly getting rid of the spine of the team that wasn't good enough the time before, such as Vrancic, Stiepermann, Trybull etc., he left himself a lot to do in revamping the culture within the club. 

What is clear is that in recruitment, the scouting team have looked for youngsters who appear willing to work hard or have ambition. But they'll always need some experienced heads around. That's why, if we go down, I'd keep Rupp for another season if he fancies it, as it appears he sets a lot of standards in training and is the kind of experienced, battle-hardened pro who can have a quiet word behind the scenes. Not to mention, he was excellent last season in the Champs.

[fredherring 136]

Cantwell was a raw talent who rode the coat tails of pukki and buendia during one breakthrough season. 

Since then he's been inconsistent and permanently had the air of a big time Charlie who wanted away. 

Thank god the pinkun delusional are finally alert to the truth. 

He's a bad apple and has been for two years. 

Get rid fast.

Edited January 12, 2022 by fredherring

[Google Bot 3,298]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Think Lakey's made - indirectly - a very good point when referring to "senior Farke players" that in quickly getting rid of the spine of the team that wasn't good enough the time before, such as Vrancic, Stiepermann, Trybull etc., he left himself a lot to do in revamping the culture within the club. 

It's primarily a wage cull though, isn't it?  Guess these senior players who may not feature as much, will be on the higher wage structures - their importance as characters and being a spine of the club shouldn't be understated, but it's a numbers game.

It's a bit odd when you see McGovern with a contract extension this year though, People say he's good for morale which I get.  But really, is it all that good to have a player with such little ambition to go off and play matches?  I'd rather have kept someone like Vrancic who we know can deliver top class distribution and last minute free kicks.

As for the Cantwell situation, i'm sick with both that and Gilmour now.  Neither managers can get the best out of them and i'll stand up for Billy as I did Todd... But now i'm wondering if with this injury we're best to call that off and move on too - because we're damned with him if we don't pair him with a stopper. 

Feels a little like the days when England manager was trying to figure out how to play Gerrard and Lamps together.  Just because you have top players, it doesn't mean they MUST play for the overall good/fluidity of the team. 

While Normann is injured I'd be happy with Sorensen and Rupp right now - you kinda know what you get with them, and they're our own assets.   But reading back these Farke comments definitely have me questioning Gilmour today.... Who Farke also benched in all the games before he was sacked.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Google Bot

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

Issue with Cantwell is the club simply cannot afford to just freeze him out, or chuck him in the U23’s until he gets his act together. The self-funding approach means that the club bank on players like him to attract large transfer fees, even at the expense of team cohesion or managerial authority. They simply can’t afford to let Cantwell go for a song, it would expose the finances due to our lack of owner investment.

[Google Bot 3,298]

11 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

The self-funding approach means that the club bank on players like him to attract large transfer fees, even at the expense of team cohesion or managerial authority. They simply can’t afford to let Cantwell go for a song, it would expose the finances due to our lack of owner investment.

And that played a big part in the decision to sack Farke i'd imagine.  It's happened at Chelsea many times due to 'player power'. 

It seems that financially a coach is a fixed expenditure, versus players that are assets.  Businesses will protect their assets.

[Jambomo 215]

14 hours ago, Indy said:

I think Farke was an absolutely brilliant man manager and gets criticised from some on here as freezing players out, but in general has been proved correct in doing so!

Shame we had such a poor run at the start of the season, still it’s being mirrored now by Smith.

Whilst I believe the squad we have isn’t good enough for the premiership I think they have under performed and continue to do so. Smith is a very nice guy and possibly why he might also fail. We might need that Pulis / Colin type to get more out of this bunch!

I don’t think being a good man manager and freezing people out ever really go together.

If you are good at man-management then you shouldn’t need to get to the stage of freezing people out and let’s face it, it’s pretty counterproductive to do it, all you do is **** the player off, cause drama in the rest of the team, lower his value, and leave yourself short of players. Look at the last few games, if Smith continued to freeze out the likes of Sorensen, Gilmour etc then who the hell would he have played? You need to try and keep people working to the best of their abilities.

Whilst the quotes Goggle Bot mentioned all seem fair in hindsight, the question is how did they get to that point and how much of that is due to attitude on Cantwell’s part or actions/attitude on Farkes? If you have a manager freezing out lots of players then you should start to wonder if he isn’t making some of those issues himself.

The point is that we just don’t know what was going on. All this “Farke was right in hindsight” stuff isn’t necessarily true and it doesn’t prove him right on everything, just because it’s clear Cantwell’s issues seem to continue under Smith.

[TheGunnShow 5,957]

3 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

I don’t think being a good man manager and freezing people out ever really go together.

If you are good at man-management then you shouldn’t need to get to the stage of freezing people out and let’s face it, it’s pretty counterproductive to do it, all you do is **** the player off, cause drama in the rest of the team, lower his value, and leave yourself short of players. Look at the last few games, if Smith continued to freeze out the likes of Sorensen, Gilmour etc then who the hell would he have played? You need to try and keep people working to the best of their abilities.

Whilst the quotes Goggle Bot mentioned all seem fair in hindsight, the question is how did they get to that point and how much of that is due to attitude on Cantwell’s part or actions/attitude on Farkes? If you have a manager freezing out lots of players then you should start to wonder if he isn’t making some of those issues himself.

The point is that we just don’t know what was going on. All this “Farke was right in hindsight” stuff isn’t necessarily true and it doesn’t prove him right on everything, just because it’s clear Cantwell’s issues seem to continue under Smith.

Couldn't disagree more to be honest - I have a pretty interesting book on football management (Soccer Coaching and Team Management, by Malcolm Cook) and one of the core tenets/quotes there is essentially as follows: the art of good management is keeping those who hate your guts away from those who are undecided.

Remember, in football you've only really got the transfer windows to get rid of problematic players. They're still around the club otherwise. Makes a lot of sense to keep the dodgy apples away from the rest of the bunch where possible.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

18 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

I don’t think being a good man manager and freezing people out ever really go together.

Ferguson would boot out anybody who was disruptive, although with more money at his disposal he could do things like pay up contracts (as he did with Roy Keane after they fell out). 

Have to say though that the number of players to be bombed out by Farke was somewhat alarming, I do think he has more of an ego and associated stubbornness than some Norwich fans would like to believe, a nasty streak that some don't want to acknowledge.

[Norfolk Dan 308]

3 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Not really, I did think that Cantwell being given another chance under Smith was one upside to sacking Farke, but I didn't really expect Cantwell to take that chance, too big for his boots and think he has it made. Interestingly Darren Huckerby, a master of Cantwell's own position, once said that he told young players they hadn't "made it" until they'd played 150 games... Cantwell hasn't reached that landmark yet. 

Then Max makes it tonight then! 

[lake district canary 4,540]

8 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Have to say though that the number of players to be bombed out by Farke was somewhat alarming, I do think he has more of an ego and associated stubbornness than some Norwich fans would like to believe, a nasty streak that some don't want to acknowledge.

Players need guidance and a framework - and he set that out on day one of his managership. That some of them tried it on with him in spite of that was their fault, not his.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

26 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Couldn't disagree more to be honest - I have a pretty interesting book on football management (Soccer Coaching and Team Management, by Malcolm Cook) and one of the core tenets/quotes there is essentially as follows: the art of good management is keeping those who hate your guts away from those who are undecided.

Written by somebody who never managed and whose only coaching experience of note was a few years as a Liverpool youth coach.

I mean, Bryan Gunn is more qualified to author that book than him. 

Next on your reading list... The Essential Guide to doing your own PR Work by Prince Andrew.

[Nuff Said 5,151]

15 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Now that a little more water has passed under the bridge and it seems most supporters on the same page of wanting Cantwell to leave for everyone's best intentions.  I read a few quotes on an article that popped up, here:-

 https://www.shieldsgazette.com/sport/football/newcastle-united/former-norwich-city-boss-explains-why-todd-cantwell-fell-out-of-favour-at-carrow-road-a-ps15m-gamble-for-newcastle-united-3522658

As everyone can probably remember, those quotes made by Farke were:

"“Sadly I have to say with Todd the last couple of months, I can’t remember one full training week when he was available for the full week."

“We speak a lot. Especially with the younger players. Sometimes they need an arm around the shoulder. Sometimes it is tougher love. Younger players have to learn and experience these things. But Todd is not 18 anymore. It is not difficult."

"The rules are clear for each player. You have to be physically and mentally prepared and show consistency in training and be available. The standards and the levels are the same for every player.”

During this period I was torn and willing to give Todd the benefit of the doubt, and towards Farke's final few weeks here I felt that the problem laid at his feet and Todd was being unfairly treated.

Feel a bit of a wally now, as reading this back Farke had it spot on.  Just felt the need to post this really, as hindsight has made me feel quite regretful in my thoughts at the time.  Anyone else feel the same?

Some confirmation bias at work here. We were told Todd had a personal issue. Assuming that to be true - that the club isn’t lying - you could read all of these statements as a result of Todd being less than 100% focused on his football because of the personal issue.
 

But people have decided that Todd is big-headed and wants away and they read these and other statements in that light. Lo and behold, they agreed with what they’ve already decided is the truth!

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

2 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

But people have decided that Todd is big-headed and wants away

Isn't it common knowledge that Todd Cantwell wasn't focused at the start of last season because he was upset that Webber accepted a transfer offer and then changed his mind? I thought that was accepted as fact, not speculation?

 

[TheGunnShow 5,957]

14 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Written by somebody who never managed and whose only coaching experience of note was a few years as a Liverpool youth coach.

I mean, Bryan Gunn is more qualified to author that book than him. 

Next on your reading list... The Essential Guide to doing your own PR Work by Prince Andrew.

Considering he worked under a probable great in Kenny Dalglish - and indeed was chosen by Dalglish - at his pomp at Liverpool for several years, I'm pretty sure he's very qualified to see what a good football manager and indeed what successful management looks like. The fact he decided not to go into management himself is not as relevant.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Considering he worked under a probable great in Kenny Dalglish - and indeed was chosen by Dalglish - at his pomp at Liverpool for several years, I'm pretty sure he's very qualified to see what a good football manager and indeed what successful management looks like. The fact he decided not to go into management himself is not as relevant.

He also grew up on the same street and went to the same school as Alex Ferguson, a year between them, if you want a fun fact to lighten the mood. 

[shefcanary 2,435]

22 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Isn't it common knowledge that Todd Cantwell wasn't focused at the start of last season because he was upset that Webber accepted a transfer offer and then changed his mind? I thought that was accepted as fact, not speculation?

 

First I've heard TvB.  So not common knowledge.  More hearsay?

[Google Bot 3,298]

41 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Some confirmation bias at work here. We were told Todd had a personal issue. Assuming that to be true - that the club isn’t lying - you could read all of these statements as a result of Todd being less than 100% focused on his football because of the personal issue.

So.. A question.  If a player has a personal issue, totally unrelated to the club or management, should you make special provisions for them?  i.e. if we accept the situation as given as a personal one, and we dismiss any rumours of fallings out.

Is Farke correct to publicly make those remarks when questioned on his lack of training or match time?

Back then I found them uncomfortable and felt it leaned towards an issue between player and coach.  Today, I'm thinking he had the correct approach, and I wasn't seeking any such confirmation biases.

This very much reminds me to back in the 'good old' days when you could make hours up at work if you needed to knock off early.  HR came in declared it was giving special treatment to people and to treat everyone 'fairly' that a clocking in system was employed and hours couldn't be 'made up'.

I find that very similar to Farke's approach to players.  He has this hard clinical line for the benefit of the squad, not the individuals. It's the somewhat passive aggressive manner that I don't like.  I much prefer the Fergie method, must admit! 🙂

Edited January 12, 2022 by Google Bot

[Mengo 825]

57 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Ferguson would boot out anybody who was disruptive, although with more money at his disposal he could do things like pay up contracts (as he did with Roy Keane after they fell out). 

Have to say though that the number of players to be bombed out by Farke was somewhat alarming, I do think he has more of an ego and associated stubbornness than some Norwich fans would like to believe, a nasty streak that some don't want to acknowledge.

Have to say though that the number of players to be bombed out by Farke was somewhat alarming, I do think he has more of an ego and associated stubbornness than some Norwich fans would like to believe, a nasty streak that some don't want to acknowledge. 

For me spot on TVB. 🤭👍

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

3 hours ago, Mason 47 said:

On the other hand, Farke did have a habit of freezing players out; but when that list includes Oliveira, Watkins, Leitner, Edwards, Ben Marshall and Patrick Roberts, it isn't hard to see a trend.

 

 

I think Farke froze players out in the hope they would respond in the correct way, as countless other players have done when frozen out before and become important players. For those you list above it was not forthcoming, which is why they did not stay long/feature much. This is an important part of man-management - throw down the gauntlet. If they have it in them they will respond in the right way. If they dont - toodle-pip!

I dont see any of those players as having been Lappin'ed. I just think Farke wanted something from them they were not prepared to give, most likely training or attitude, something we dont see often as fans. Unless its obvious as with Oliveira.

Farke wanted Cantwell to develop his way. Cantwell obviously knew better. That Farke was ultimately undermined in part by this stance with Todd is the ultimate kick in the teeth

[Greavsy 2,417]

38 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Isn't it common knowledge that Todd Cantwell wasn't focused at the start of last season because he was upset that Webber accepted a transfer offer and then changed his mind? I thought that was accepted as fact, not speculation?

 

I had heard that too....... From a source I trust. 

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

40 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Considering he worked under a probable great in Kenny Dalglish - and indeed was chosen by Dalglish - at his pomp at Liverpool for several years, I'm pretty sure he's very qualified to see what a good football manager and indeed what successful management looks like. The fact he decided not to go into management himself is not as relevant.

Times have changed though. Youngsters have a very different view of the world these days:

 

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

11 minutes ago, Greavsy said:

I had heard that too....... From a source I trust. 

Do we know what the bid was and who the club was? Another fantastic Keith O'Neill-esque decision from Webber if true

[Greavsy 2,417]

13 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Do we know what the bid was and who the club was? Another fantastic Keith O'Neill-esque decision from Webber if true

I personally don't have any info like that.