Time for Webber to go?!

[TheGunnShow 6,100]

10 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

The fans were paid back, with extras! We are currently debt free too. When he came in we were on the brink of administration. The assets that were sold were sold at prices we had never seen before! He hasn’t “spunked the money”, he has had to build a squad with a poor amount of money, given we had to sell our best player to fund the majority of it!

Not only that, we've done that in a bloody pandemic. Financially, he's done a quite remarkable job together with Farke, to be fair to him.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,092]

13 hours ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

Look where we were before he came in

A team just outside the play offs having spent 4 of the last 6 seasons in the PL, with a host of excellent youngsters 2 or 3 years away from coming through? Also with two Murphy's and Alex Pritchard in the first team about to demand eight figure transfer funds. Next year might not look as rosy as that.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Worthy Nigelton

[Dr Greenthumb 753]

8 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

A team just outside the play offs having spent 4 of the last 6 seasons in the PL, with a host of excellent youngsters 2 or 3 years away from coming through? Also with two Murphy's and Alex Pritchard in the first team about to demand eight figure transfer funds. Next year might not look as rosy as that.

I don’t dispute that. But we are selling players for double them fees now.

The blame doesn’t lie with Webber. We are selling players for £25m and expected to cover wages and get replacements in. 
 

We need owners with money, end of

[Worthy Nigelton 1,092]

6 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

I don’t dispute that. But we are selling players for double them fees now.

The blame doesn’t lie with Webber. We are selling players for £25m and expected to cover wages and get replacements in. 
 

We need owners with money, end of

True but that's just the market. Grealish cost £100m nowadays. 

We do need new owners and Webber has done some good things - that I completely agree with. The thing that annoys me about him is the way he tries to re-write history of the McNally era as being a disaster. It wasnt. It was more successful than his era thus far and he has benefitted from the recruitment and youth teams of that era enormously - something which he never acknowledges, but rather, he smashes it at every opportunity. 

A bit of humility wouldnt go amiss as if a new CEO/SD were to come in now they would justifiably be spitting feathers at the state of the first team squad he has left them with for what it cost to assemble. I would take issue with that in the same way.  You have to look at a performance overall and not just focus in on the bad bits (which he does repeatedly about McNally).

He's done well but he is running out of gas IMO and I wouldnt be disappointed to see him go. However, I do appreciate the 'be careful what you wish for' element of him getting booted. It's a tough one... but he needs to come out and own up to the utter shambles of this season and understand that buying a Soccerbot doesnt make him the messiah and buying Sargent, Tzolis, PLM etc does make him extremely culpable for how crap we are.

[Mello Yello 2,315]

38 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Webber The Fraud should go. Believes his own hype and the only thing that he has transformed is the bricks and mortor at Colney and that was done with fans money.

I would imagine it wasn't just the fan's money......Maybe that there would be those at the club who also financially 'chipped in' a bit more dosh in supporting that successful when conceived and generated 'idea' to improve the Colney infrastructure....and who also may have personally benefited from their contribution with a rather healthy return on their personal financial input.....

As they say.....'Yer dunt do owt for nowt!'......

[WD40 724]

59 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

The fans were paid back, with extras! We are currently debt free too. When he came in we were on the brink of administration. The assets that were sold were sold at prices we had never seen before! He hasn’t “spunked the money”, he has had to build a squad with a poor amount of money, given we had to sell our best player to fund the majority of it!

The fans were paid back in accordance with the terms of the bond. The debts were cleared by sales of good assets, recruited before his time, namely James Maddison. Now, whether a different sporting director / coach would still have had Maddison out on loan rather than in the shop window for Norwich is a different question.

Of course he’s spunked the money. The players bought in summer are now worth pennies on the pound. If he’d left before last summer his legacy would be solid, now it’s seriously under question. 
 

I agree that the ownership and wage structure are the root cause but can’t say Webber didn’t have funds to play with this summer. Problem is you need lightning to strike with every signing. And it hasn’t. So it’s shown Webber not to be a genius, just an ordinary guy really. But Delia is the one holding us back. 

[Dr Greenthumb 753]

30 minutes ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

True but that's just the market. Grealish cost £100m nowadays. 

We do need new owners and Webber has done some good things - that I completely agree with. The thing that annoys me about him is the way he tries to re-write history of the McNally era as being a disaster. It wasnt. It was more successful than his era thus far and he has benefitted from the recruitment and youth teams of that era enormously - something which he never acknowledges, but rather, he smashes it at every opportunity. 

A bit of humility wouldnt go amiss as if a new CEO/SD were to come in now they would justifiably be spitting feathers at the state of the first team squad he has left them with for what it cost to assemble. I would take issue with that in the same way.  You have to look at a performance overall and not just focus in on the bad bits (which he does repeatedly about McNally).

He's done well but he is running out of gas IMO and I wouldnt be disappointed to see him go. However, I do appreciate the 'be careful what you wish for' element of him getting booted. It's a tough one... but he needs to come out and own up to the utter shambles of this season and understand that buying a Soccerbot doesnt make him the messiah and buying Sargent, Tzolis, PLM etc does make him extremely culpable for how crap we are.

I think he has been told to use the “sins of the past” catchphrase. 
It’s worrying how bad some of the signings are. But for £4m in the top French division, you were never going to get a premiership quality central midfielder.

Delia & Michael are more accountable than Stuart.

[Mello Yello 2,315]

Get Stu as a candidate on 'The Apprentice'.....I wonder what Mr Sugar would make of him?.....

[Cantiaci Canary 566]

It amuses me how, with Farke gone, all of the guns have been turned off his back and now, desperately in need of a replacement target, are being trained on Webber's.

Once he's been driven out too where does our act of cannibalism swerve next? Is the third scapegoat Delia (chants against her were heard at Charlton) or does Smith get burned out first? Maybe Gilmour is the root of all our problems or McLean???

Can't people see that we're not a single sacking away from becoming an established Premier League side and it's just a matter of purging that rotten egg? You're actually wanting to slaughter the goose that's been laying a golden egg.

The simple fact is that we have meagre finances to exploit in a billionaires's fun house. We only spent the £50M+ that we did because £30M+ came in for our most essential player. The recruitment has proven to be disappointing but most posters on here were excited with the signings at the time and, without any £25M+ individual recruitments, none of them could ever be guaranteed successes - and Normann and Rashica HAVE been.

The lashing out at the very people who everyone was gushing about when we won the title (again!) last summer is more an indicator of emotion than logic and it could well be something we regret in four to five years time. 

There doesn't always HAVE to be someone to blame and witchhunt. It's an easy answer to a complex question ... and the wrong answer.

As far as I see it you have to swallow one of two pills:

1. Keep trusting in the model. It requires patience and acceptance of short term pain at times (but delivers short term glory at other times - and hopefully long term realisation of our dream of a PL era). Webber's error was to change the messaging to 'we have the armoury now to think beyond the top 26' ... we don't and arguably couldn't without Emi or an equally talented player coming in to take his shirt. Trusting in the model means hoping to stick after a few more yo yos.

2. We'll only ever stick and be competitive in the top flight if we bring in mega investment and we're prepared to cross our fingers and hope that it turns out like Wolves rather than Portsmouth. Hopefully there is a benevolent billionaire out there open to pumping plenty of their own cash into a Norfolk football team without any demands of their own. Even then, WBA and Fulham have experienced just those sorts of take overs and they are precisely in the same category of football club as us right now.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Cantiaci Canary

[essex canary 516]

40 minutes ago, WD40 said:

The fans were paid back in accordance with the terms of the bond. 

'fans' under this definition including Webber and Ward as per the Bond Board at Colney albeit nobody knows how many.

[TheGunnShow 6,100]

1 hour ago, Worthy Nigelton said:

A team just outside the play offs having spent 4 of the last 6 seasons in the PL, with a host of excellent youngsters 2 or 3 years away from coming through? Also with two Murphy's and Alex Pritchard in the first team about to demand eight figure transfer funds. Next year might not look as rosy as that.

And financially in a rather awkward position, with poor training facilities.

[Cantiaci Canary 566]

9 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

And financially in a rather awkward position, with poor training facilities.

Exactly ... there are Championship / L1&2 fans probably laughing at us now thinking - what on earth are you crying about???

You have zero debt, a first class academy, awesome facilities, two EFL trophies recently in the cabinet, Premier League status, a squad of internationals, a long term plan, you're only 3 points off safety with half the season left and every chance of bouncing back up if the worst does happen with parachute payments and a squad you don't have to flog to balance the books!

Stop attacking your own, look at the big picture and be grateful for what you have - we wish we had it!

Edited January 10, 2022 by Cantiaci Canary

[essex canary 516]

McNally did superbly in the first 3 years, built up his personal rewards then found it difficult to maintain the same achievements and momentum.

It looks exactly the same with Webber. 

If we are going to churn players because they have had their feet under the carpet too long, the same approach should apply to the CEO, DOF whatever. 

Fresh blood required in the Board too.

 

[Jim Smith 2,365]

1 minute ago, Cantiaci Canary said:

Exactly ... there are Championship / L1&2 fans probably laughing at us now thinking - what on earth are you crying about???

You have zero debt, a first class academy, awesome facilities, two EFL trophies recently in the cabinet, Premier League status, a squad of internationals, a long term plan, you're only 3 points off safety with half the season left and every chance of bouncing back up if the worst does happen with parachute payments and a squad you don't have to flog to balance the books!

Stop attacking your own, look at the big picture and be grateful for what you have - we wish we had it!

There were certianly some league 1 fans looking at us and laughing yesterday! Worst premier league club they've ever seen was a line heard more than once. 

[Cantiaci Canary 566]

23 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

There were certianly some league 1 fans looking at us and laughing yesterday! Worst premier league club they've ever seen was a line heard more than once. 

Would any of them pass up the opportunity to switch places???. 

I think not.

Yes, a poor performance but we still knocked out an opponent chucking the kitchen sink, on their big day of the season, at us away from home with an under-confident and injury hit squad.

I wonder what Cambridge, Huddersfield and Forest fans made of Newcastle, Burnley and Arsenal ... I can't imagine they were overly complimentary about them either!

Edited January 10, 2022 by Cantiaci Canary

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

It seems to me that some posters are behaving like Trump supporters and blaming things other than the real problems.

We cannot complain about our lot as we have had great years since 2002, two decades, and we have had had abysmal ones. We have gone from having to sell a player to maybe avoid administration to being debt free.

Of course the financial success is down to selling players and EPL money. Not fantastic management policies. We have had full houses for the last 16 years so it clearly doesn't stop us losing money.

To continue to look for sainthood for Delia is clearly just romance. What she did in 1996 was brilliant. But even that didn't lead to overnight success and she oversaw some dreadful decisions especially in appointing CEOs and coaches. And then, in our darkest moment she stopped the old pals act and brought in Lambert, the man who had turned our lights out.

It worked well and we took off. But for some reason I am still unsure of, it turned sour. But we thought we were now anEPL team so the appointment of Chris Hughton seemed another good one. But his defensive attitude took something out of that Band of Gypsies. And now Delia was faced with a miserable crowd again and showed signs of panic with his sacking.

The Alex Neil left field appointment and it subsequent success was once again marred by another panic decision and was followed by the big change. A sporting director and coach. And the first season brought howls of derision as the football was as dire as Hughtons had been.

But some excellent signings and the emergence of some good academy products (all at the club already) saw us take the Championship apart.

So Webber and the Board became the astute people who were going to create a dynasty. And after a couple of memorable games, that opinion was questioned after we failed miserably in the EPL.

But we managed to persuade our better players to stay, almost, and we all believed we could bounce right back. And sure enough we did with an astute loan and a brilliant season from our star player.

Then we were promised what had happened previously wouldn't happen again because we were buying players to stay in the division.

And that has so far proven to be an embarrassing statement. And once again the panic button was pressed and we ignored the left field coaches and went for someone who had just been sacked for failure. Many of our new signings sit on the bench and we are embarrassed that we cannot score, cannot stop conceding and are playing some of the most uncompetitive football for many a year.

And some still do not blame the Sporting Director. The man who said we had pished our money up the wall. The man who was meant to bring in players to keep us in the EPL. Yet he had said we had bought wisely this time. All those benchsitters. He went for quantity and that is all he got. And yesterdays performance was nearly another dark moment. Any achievements are far overshadowed but his failure. And he kept us believing we were just a stepping stone to his progress.

 

[hepphep 175]

First it was "Time for Farke to go", only to find ourselves in panic when realizing that it is really hard to find better replacement. I think many would say that judge is still out with Smith. Even though there is need for improvement in scouting and getting in correct player, Webber has made massive positive things to the club, its finances and status. We could be bottom half club in championship without him as well. Just wondering who realistic targets those who claim that there is "Time for Webber to go" would bring on the table to replace him?

Also, really pondering if Webber is the one who does the scouting and puts together reports on who we should hire or maybe we have some improvement required on our scouting department?

[TheGunnShow 6,100]

14 minutes ago, hepphep said:

First it was "Time for Farke to go", only to find ourselves in panic when realizing that it is really hard to find better replacement. I think many would say that judge is still out with Smith. Even though there is need for improvement in scouting and getting in correct player, Webber has made massive positive things to the club, its finances and status. We could be bottom half club in championship without him as well. Just wondering who realistic targets those who claim that there is "Time for Webber to go" would bring on the table to replace him?

Also, really pondering if Webber is the one who does the scouting and puts together reports on who we should hire or maybe we have some improvement required on our scouting department?

Wasn't Kieran Walsh the main guy for that before leaving?

[Capt. Pants 4,330]

6 minutes ago, hepphep said:

First it was "Time for Farke to go", only to find ourselves in panic when realizing that it is really hard to find better replacement. I think many would say that judge is still out with Smith. Even though there is need for improvement in scouting and getting in correct player, Webber has made massive positive things to the club, its finances and status. We could be bottom half club in championship without him as well. Just wondering who realistic targets those who claim that there is "Time for Webber to go" would bring on the table to replace him?

Also, really pondering if Webber is the one who does the scouting and puts together reports on who we should hire or maybe we have some improvement required on our scouting department?

If there was a panic to replace Farke then it would have been down to Webber as it was he who sacked him in rather bizarre circumstances. 

It seems Webber did not have a viable replacement lined up and Smith kind a fell into our laps. I agree the jury is still very much out on him, but the fact it is says something of Webbers appointment of him in the first place.

Webber has done many good things, as did Farke, but in my opinion it is starting to unravel right now. Questionable signings, the timing of Farke's sacking and the appointment of a head coach no better than what we had. I honestly feel we have gone backwards pretty quickly this season.

[hepphep 175]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Wasn't Kieran Walsh the main guy for that before leaving?

I think you are right, and I think he was already leaving during summer window and therefore not fully involved. Which would seem there was sort of transition going on. Could it also be that we actually did get quite nicely the targets that our scouts recommended us to sign and therefore Webber expected us to have succeeded on getting what we wanted?
If it is so, it is likely that scouting department needs some strengthening and Webber is just acting as a good boss and not throwing them under the bus.
 

[Jim Smith 2,365]

Just now, hepphep said:

I think you are right, and I think he was already leaving during summer window and therefore not fully involved. Which would seem there was sort of transition going on. Could it also be that we actually did get quite nicely the targets that our scouts recommended us to sign and therefore Webber expected us to have succeeded on getting what we wanted?
If it is so, it is likely that scouting department needs some strengthening and Webber is just acting as a good boss and not throwing them under the bus.
 

Our main scout went to Palace didn't he. Despite assertions to the contrary it would be interesting to know how many of their signings this summer were targets on our list.

What worries me a bit is that in what remains of the recruitment team there seems to be a heavy emphasis on data and relatively few with a long term football background. Sargent was signed primarily on the data and we've all seen how that has gone!

[hepphep 175]

3 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

If there was a panic to replace Farke then it would have been down to Webber as it was he who sacked him in rather bizarre circumstances. 

It seems Webber did not have a viable replacement lined up and Smith kind a fell into our laps. I agree the jury is still very much out on him, but the fact it is says something of Webbers appointment of him in the first place.

Webber has done many good things, as did Farke, but in my opinion it is starting to unravel right now. Questionable signings, the timing of Farke's sacking and the appointment of a head coach no better than what we had. I honestly feel we have gone backwards pretty quickly this season.

I totally agree that the timing for sacking Farke was strange, especially as we did not have that replacement in place. I think we got lucky with timing to get Smith though. However, was just pointing out that so many of use were yelling "Farke out" back then as well, only to notice that when it happened it was really really hard to get any good replacement for him. Same goes with our players. So many are yelling to send Gilmour back. I agree that he is far from solid EPL player, but then you watch Charlton game which he misses and notice that he really plays because without him we would be even worse.

I'm sort of thinking that maybe we should learn about that as fans and appreciate persons more, because they are in their role (coach, player or sports director) for reason. And often that reason is that they are best we have available, and getting better for now is near to impossible in short term. Maybe to acknowledge that we cannot just get the best there are, but we should focus on supporting on what we have got and can get. With all their strengths and weaknesses. 

That is just something I started feeling first after Farke was sacked and all the awful options to replace him was all around in pundits and forum. And on Charlton match when Gilmour was missing and there was nobody who was willing to take responsibility of holding ball in the midfield. Maybe we just should appreciate more what we got.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

24 minutes ago, hepphep said:

First it was "Time for Farke to go", only to find ourselves in panic when realizing that it is really hard to find better replacement. I think many would say that judge is still out with Smith. Even though there is need for improvement in scouting and getting in correct player, Webber has made massive positive things to the club, its finances and status. We could be bottom half club in championship without him as well. Just wondering who realistic targets those who claim that there is "Time for Webber to go" would bring on the table to replace him?

Also, really pondering if Webber is the one who does the scouting and puts together reports on who we should hire or maybe we have some improvement required on our scouting department?

But isn't Webber ultimately responsible for scouting? And surely he goes and has a look at those on the radar whether in person or by video? He is a bit like the Materials Manager in a Company. Its down to him to make sure the Managers can carry out their job well.

[hepphep 175]

Just now, keelansgrandad said:

But isn't Webber ultimately responsible for scouting? And surely he goes and has a look at those on the radar whether in person or by video? He is a bit like the Materials Manager in a Company. Its down to him to make sure the Managers can carry out their job well.

Oh, then I've misunderstood. I sort of thought he runs the business and tries to set of professionals to work on their own field. Sort of thinking that even if he goes through player negotiations, he would go those through suggestions of the head scout and head coach. He would sort of be the person to ensure that the purchase makes sense financially. Scouts would then be responsible for finding candidates based on what is needed and head coach and sporting director would make plan based on their things. In similar way as sporting director could give some input on what is expected from team, but it is head coach who will decide the formations and what players are told to be done on the pitch.

Yes, in the end he is responsible as he needs to ensure that scouting department is up to the task. However, I'd think that it would be strange to blame their performance for now as it is something that is hard change in short term, but instead focus on developing so that we get things better in future. Like he has done with many other things in club. Step by step.

If he really also focuses on details on player capabilities and their analysis, his job description is a way wider than I expected.

 

[canarybubbles 1,959]

14 hours ago, Mengo said:

Football is a game of passion, and part of every fan would die if the game were reduced to a soulless set of calculations. But equally, any club or manager that denies the power of data are placing themselves at an enormous disadvantage. In one sense, this could be a positive development: football has historically been dominated by the teams with the fattest wallets; in the age of analytics, clubs should be rewarded for innovating and there is a greater motivation for cash-strapped teams to lead the way. Brains can trump financial brawn. Though, it should be noted that right now Manchester City are leading the field in both categories.

Our scouts are 🤓 geeks . DATA is one thing but it's the only thing that is driving our recruitment of players. I've said many times we don't have footballers scouting. How can this possibly be correct. The human element for knowing a good prospect should be down to people who know a good player when they see one over and over again. Not a final decision on a f***ing app

 

 

 

Not only recognising a good prospect, but also understanding the kind of football the team plays and the manager aims for, and then judging whether the prospective purchase would be likely to fit into the squad. At least as much of an art as a science, and something no amount of data can ever manage to do.

[Creative Midfielder 2,004]

16 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

We didn’t need a keeper?  You’d have been happy sticking with what we had?? Crikey.

But yes, that’s my point re: quality over quantity - it was what was said at the time, but we ended up bringing in more than I expected (9, including loans but not including Gibson-Dimi).  I hoped for fewer better guys to be able to pretty much slip into PL mode, but we’ve ended up with a bit of a mixed bag.  Quite why we had the push to get Tzolis here (pushing it through so he didn’t play a leg of the euros for PAOK) but then barely play him was odd… not that he’s particularly done much to suggest he should be playing more.  It is/was a strange mixed bag.

Yes, I was happy with Barden & McGovern to the extent that I regarded more backup as a pretty low priority especially relative to the important areas where we actually needed to bring in genuine starters, viz CDM & second striker.

But I think on the overarching point of focussing on quality over quantity we are completely agreed - as I said, the exact same mistake that Worthington made. I think he also brought in 9 players the summer we were promoted and yet the team was weaker than the one that got us promoted.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Creative Midfielder

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, hepphep said:

Oh, then I've misunderstood. I sort of thought he runs the business and tries to set of professionals to work on their own field. Sort of thinking that even if he goes through player negotiations, he would go those through suggestions of the head scout and head coach. He would sort of be the person to ensure that the purchase makes sense financially. Scouts would then be responsible for finding candidates based on what is needed and head coach and sporting director would make plan based on their things. In similar way as sporting director could give some input on what is expected from team, but it is head coach who will decide the formations and what players are told to be done on the pitch.

Yes, in the end he is responsible as he needs to ensure that scouting department is up to the task. However, I'd think that it would be strange to blame their performance for now as it is something that is hard change in short term, but instead focus on developing so that we get things better in future. Like he has done with many other things in club. Step by step.

If he really also focuses on details on player capabilities and their analysis, his job description is a way wider than I expected.

 

Some scouts have a very limited agenda. Obviously we have had European scouts for a few years now, something that we were maybe late to enter into, and the emphasis seems to be bringing in foreign players and I assume for the cost.

We wouldn't go for Jared Bowen or Ivan Toney, as we are led to believe, because of the cost. Whereas, and I know its only half a season, it looks like the cost of bringing in Sargent is going to incur a greater cost.

A Technical Director is something Webber is unlikely to ever aspire to. So as  Sporting Director, I am led to believe it is the conduit between the Board and Coach. The title is misleading because it is derived from European clubs who have other sports such as basketball. He is ostensibly there to leave the coach to only onfield matters. Which means he is the head of the scouting pyramid.

[repman 642]

Webber undoubtedly has improved the club during his tenure, both on and off the pitch. However my point with him has always been that he made the changes needed, put good practice into place and would then be able to hand the role over to someone else to carry on. This is what I had envisaged when he said he would leave after this season. I realise he is the one who maintains an overarching vision of what the club should look like on the football side, but we are led to believe that this also aligns with the board. So ultimately, if Webber was not here what would have changed. Obviously him and the head coach will have an influence on transfers in regards to who they end up picking and selling the club to players, but outside of that I'm not sure what else he has to do. I also believe he wants to leave the club with us in the prem, both as leaving on relegation would disrupt the club and ultimately show he has failed.

Overall I think he should stay though, I'm lean more towards the fact that we're close to getting it right instead of the other way (ownership issues aside).

[Indy 3,344]

Bottom line is he’s running the club for the board, he’s done a fantastic job and his summer signing as I said at the time are about continuous improvement based on younger players in our price range and willing to come here under the current structure. Some haven’t stepped up to premiership quality but are young enough to fulfil the potential as Buendia did over the next couple seasons.

Keep Webber at all costs and if Smith doesn’t work out, chop him quick and get in a progressive young manager who has shown they can build a decent footballing team on a decent budget.

[Wardogz 72]

People want to sack the current leadership but offer no alternative leadership as a suggestion. Hit and hope.