So now we know

[king canary 7,705]

2 hours ago, Upo said:

Performance under Smith have been somewhat uneven, but on average 2 steps ahead anything Farke got out of the team.

The problem is that instead of £10M prospects we needed £15M veterans. As it is, we basically have three PL quality players - Pukki, Norrman and Krul - and a couple who probably will eventually be PL quality. Most new recruits basically needed half a season in Championship to gel and get used to the physicality and pace.

I've not totally given up, but we can't draw our way out of relegation. We need to score.

I have to ask though, who are these £15m veterans? There seems to be this mythical category of established Premier League players people think we could have signed in this price category but I don't think they actually exist.

[Alex 26]

In my opinion in all honesty I think it's a little bit rhetoric that performances have been considerably better under Smith. Farkes last game was a win also so maybe had started to figure a few things out. I was underwhelmed with the Dean Smith appointment, I didn't really rate him at Villa but let's be honest we have the worst squad in the league. 

. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Alex

[king canary 7,705]

13 minutes ago, Alex said:

In my opinion in all honesty I think it's a little bit rhetoric that performances have been considerably better under Smith. Farkes last game was a win also so maybe had started to figure a few things out. I was underwhelmed with the Dean Smith appointment, I didn't really rate him at Villa but let's be honest we have the worst squad in the league. 

. 

I don't really know how anyone can watch the performances and not see an improvement. 

In 11 games I'd say we were utterly humiliated on three separate occasions. I've not felt like that once under Smith.

[Nora's Ghost 157]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

I don't really know how anyone can watch the performances and not see an improvement. 

In 11 games I'd say we were utterly humiliated on three separate occasions. I've not felt like that once under Smith.

Totally with you on that. Smith and Shakespeare have been given a very poor squad to play with at PL level and so far I have seen a vast improvement in set up, especially in defence.

 

As before though our total lack of attacking punch relying entirely on Pukki is abysmal and the new manager MUST be given funds to address the problem if the club is serious about trying to avoid relegation....... again.

[lake district canary 4,562]

Lets get the record straight. Farke started the season by trying to play football and it rapidly proved we were not ready to do that - the new players would take time to bed in. So he reverted to kick long, play defensive - and he stopped the rot (Chelsea aside, but then look at Leeds v Man City...sh*t happens in this league). Then he tried to revert back towards farkeball against Brentford and it worked. 

Imo, what he did was fair enough - it started bad, he tried to find ways of improving things and he did, finishing with 5 points from five games.  So he was imoproving - and we started to look effective. That imo would have continued. 

What did for him was - again imo - behind the scenes stuff, which made his position difficult. The Cantwell saga for one thing. But Smith has come in, Cantwell is still not at the races and Gilmour (who has too much hype baggaged around him) is not proving that wonderful under Smith either. So what we are left with is a manager who came in and got the customary new manager bounce effect - which has now worn off and we are back in a very similar situation to where we were under Farke.

People say we look better defensively, yet against several teams under Farke this season, we have been tight defensively. Were we tight against Villa? No. Just like under Farke, we let teams - or even one player as against Villa - the freedom to run unchallenged from the half way line all the way to goal.

It's early days still and I think Smith is a good manager and may do well, but is he better than Farke? Not imo.

Edited December 16, 2021 by lake district canary

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

50 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Lets get the record straight. Farke started the season by trying to play football and it rapidly proved we were not ready to do that - the new players would take time to bed in. So he reverted to kick long, play defensive - and he stopped the rot (Chelsea aside, but then look at Leeds v Man City...sh*t happens in this league). Then he tried to revert back towards farkeball against Brentford and it worked. 

Farkeball:

[king canary 7,705]

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

Lets get the record straight. Farke started the season by trying to play football and it rapidly proved we were not ready to do that - the new players would take time to bed in. So he reverted to kick long, play defensive - and he stopped the rot (Chelsea aside, but then look at Leeds v Man City...sh*t happens in this league). Then he tried to revert back towards farkeball against Brentford and it worked. 

That isn't setting the record straight remotely.

He didn't 'stop the rot' - he managed two scrappy 0-0's before woeful performances v Chelsea and Leeds.

[Van wink 2,994]

Farke had started to turn the tide, we had a shocking pre season and were never going to start well after that, particularly  with the fixture list we had. There were green shoots appearing, after the away win there would have been more confidence in the squad, he could well have gone forward to equal Smith’s record since then.  This thread wasn’t started to knock Dean Smith, I am behind him all the way, the sole purpose was to make the point that there were assertions made that the squad was underperforming and by implication the finger was pointed at Farke. It seems to me that the abject performance on Tuesday suggests a far deeper problem than the ability of the two respective managers. 

[PurpleCanary 5,603]

6 hours ago, king canary said:

I have to ask though, who are these £15m veterans? There seems to be this mythical category of established Premier League players people think we could have signed in this price category but I don't think they actually exist.

No they don't, or they do but they want wages we cannot afford, a nice signing-on bonus, and at least a three-year contract.

[lake district canary 4,562]

4 hours ago, king canary said:

5 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Lets get the record straight. Farke started the season by trying to play football and it rapidly proved we were not ready to do that - the new players would take time to bed in. So he reverted to kick long, play defensive - and he stopped the rot (Chelsea aside, but then look at Leeds v Man City...sh*t happens in this league). Then he tried to revert back towards farkeball against Brentford and it worked. 

That isn't setting the record straight remotely.

He didn't 'stop the rot' - he managed two scrappy 0-0's before woeful performances v Chelsea and Leeds.

He DID stop the rot. After the terrible start, with nil points, he took steps to remedy it by having a siege mentality towards matches - and we started picking up points. Credit where credit is due.

[lake district canary 4,562]

5 hours ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Farkeball:

The answer to that......3 points.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

2 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

The answer to that......3 points.

That isn't the answer at all?

You said for the Brentford game that Farkeball came back with a win. It clearly didn't. We played well in the first half, yes, but scored from our two chances and then held on for dear life for 45 minutes while Brentford battered us. We were very lucky not to draw or lose. 

Is that Farkeball to you?

Or are you now saying that Farkeball was only ever about winning points? At which point I'd have to question why you were so in favour of him (and continue to be) when his record represents 6 (?) wins in 48 PL games.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

13 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

He DID stop the rot. After the terrible start, with nil points, he took steps to remedy it by having a siege mentality towards matches - and we started picking up points. Credit where credit is due.

He didn't stop the rot though did he? I mean, unless you qualify 'stopping the rot' as simply not losing every single game playing hopefully poor football, then yeah I guess you're right. 

So yes after a shocking start, we won a couple of points here and there, but then proceeded to lose terribly against Chelsea and Leeds. All that good work undone. 

Then we beat Brentford, and lets be real everything that could went our way that game. Based on that performance level then another day it would've been a disappointing loss, certainly.

Wishful thinking if you think one think that one match was going to turn everything on its head under Farke, IMO. I agree in that I would've liked to seen him given one more game to prove it one way or another, but come on it was severely unlikely. 

Either way I am pretty certain in thinking we wouldn't have come close to matching the Southampton (second 45), Wolves and Man United performances. 

[lake district canary 4,562]

1 minute ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

He didn't stop the rot though did he? I mean, unless you qualify 'stopping the rot' as simply not losing every single game playing hopefully poor football, then yeah I guess you're right. 

So yes after a shocking start, we won a couple of points here and there, but then proceeded to lose terribly against Chelsea and Leeds. All that good work undone. 

Then we beat Brentford, and lets be real everything that could went our way that game. Based on that performance level then another day it would've been a disappointing loss, certainly.

Wishful thinking if you think one think that one match was going to turn everything on its head under Farke, IMO. I agree in that I would've liked to seen him given one more game to prove it one way or another, but come on it was severely unlikely. 

Either way I am pretty certain in thinking we wouldn't have come close to matching the Southampton (second 45), Wolves and Man United performances. 

Good heavens above, the main issue with Farke was results, yet after a bad start (and the circumstances of those) you get sniffy at the two hard fought draws and an away win, representing five points in five games, quoting the bad results at Chelsea and against Leeds as if those successes were irrelevant!

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

Just now, lake district canary said:

Good heavens above, the main issue with Farke was results, yet after a bad start (and the circumstances of those) you get sniffy at the two hard fought draws and an away win, representing five points in five games, quoting the bad results at Chelsea and against Leeds as if those successes were irrelevant!

I personally don't think a smattering of decent results and slightly improved performances, amongst other shocking displays, is 'stopping the rot'. 

Even the worst teams in history manage the odd result here and there in the league, but full credit to Farke for managing to not have NCFC losing every single game, I guess?

[Van wink 2,994]

I really don't think it was Farke.

[Van wink 2,994]

On 14/12/2021 at 21:51, Van wink said:

It wasn’t Farke

 

[Petriix 2,857]

The longer it goes on, the more this thread rings true. There was an initial improvement under Smith but it's been a rapid decline since, and I can't imagine that we would still be playing as badly as this under Farke. The squad has been utterly destroyed by Webber. We will finish bottom half of the Championship next season.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,092]

Farke is a better manager than Smith. We've downgraded the manager as well as the players. There I've said it. 

Webber; you need to say something after this.

[king canary 7,705]

On 14/12/2021 at 22:47, king canary said:

Come on, this is a bit stupid right?

He had 5 points from 11 games. The first 5 don't magically disappear. If we have 5 points from 11 games under Smith I'll come back and tell you how right you were.

Bumping this as we've now reached the point where Smith has 11 games under his belt.

Surely there can't be many arguing the toss on keeping Farke now?

[Van wink 2,994]

Great credit to Smith

[hogesar 9,817]

Just now, king canary said:

Bumping this as we've now reached the point where Smith has 11 games under his belt.

Surely there can't be many arguing the toss on keeping Farke now?

Again, he also had to deal with 3 matches with up to 10 players out. Evidence suggests we would have got at least a point or two from those under Smith.

[lake district canary 4,562]

Just now, king canary said:

Bumping this as we've now reached the point where Smith has 11 games under his belt.

Surely there can't be many arguing the toss on keeping Farke now?

The truth is we don't know for sure how things would have gone had kept Farke. The squad was always going to develop through the season with all the new players coming in.  I'm not complaining, if it means we can stay up I don't care if Donald Duck is manager.

[Capt. Pants 4,329]

Don't think we would have won the last two games under Farke tbh. New found steel which we didn't have before and the team is set up to win a football match.

[king canary 7,705]

Just now, Capt. Pants said:

Don't think we would have won the last two games under Farke tbh. New found steel which we didn't have before and the team is set up to win a football match.

Agree. Smith has got us playing in a way that means we can get points from tough situations.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

Smith has tweaked the formation so that we are more attack-minded with Pukki, Rashica, Sargant and Idah. Additionally, this forward line up is also the first line of defence with their pressing. Both Sargant and Idah are muscular young lads and give us a lot of steel and energy in forward positions allowing us to hustle for the ball up the pitch and win it in dangerous areas. 

It's really joyful to see how Idah and Sargant have improved and put in great performances since Smith's arrival, they have really responded well to his coaching.

At the back, I would also single out Williams who is really up to speed and putting in so much effort into his game. Great to see a loan player who really cares about doing a good job.

And a special mention to Sorenson, who plays in an understated manner, that you really notice the difference in the dynamic to the team when he had to go off. 

Avoiding relegation is going to be a huge ask and if we manage it, it will be one of the Premier League's greatest stories. All we can do is just look to the next game, forget the noise, and keep performing the way we are doing now, and hope the results come. Could be one helluva ride.

[Van wink 2,994]

It’s pretty obvious isn’t it, the squad isn’t good enough, Smith really is unable to produce  anything more than Farke, in fact maybe less! Sacking Daniel was a massive mistake, he would be by far the best option to bring us success next season.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Van wink

[canarydan23 4,136]

Brentford at home and Leeds away, given the form both sides were in and the context of the season, were our two biggest must-win games and arguably most winnable.

These for Smith are the same as Watford and Leeds at home for Farke.

He was always a stupid appointment, one swallow does not make a summer and all that. I genuinely think it was possible we mauy have turned a corner at Brentford away, the fight the players showed to cling on to that 1 goal advantage in the face of a Brentford onslaught is not something we've seen since Smith took over. For sure, our "game management" and streetwise improved the few times we've been defending a one goal advantage, but there has never been any evidence of a real spirited defence of a lead like that match.

I thought sacking Farke was stupid but could just about understand why they did it and assumed they had something lined up that would give us a decent chance at staying up. Then they appointed Smith. I didn't understand it then and I don't understand it now.

And you can't blame Farke for it either, Smith's points per game figure extrapolated across the season would manage us 25 points. He was never going to keep us up. He's either not good enough, so should not have been appointed, or the squad was never good enough to stay up, in which case Farke should not have been sacked.

[hogesar 9,817]

13 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Brentford at home and Leeds away, given the form both sides were in and the context of the season, were our two biggest must-win games and arguably most winnable.

These for Smith are the same as Watford and Leeds at home for Farke.

I agree with this bit.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

Farke was in charge for my favourite season as a City fan

 

But had he remained in charge for the whole of this season, i genuinely believe Derbys record points total would have been in danger of being broken.

Posters can be Mr hindsight and claim we shouldve stuck with Farke all they want but it was truly truly awful at the beginning of the season. As bad as it is now (and it really is depressing to know we're down in early March), Smith has been an improvement and gave us hope. Without a disastrous injury/illness period over xmas, or without Idahs injury, who knows. But Smith has utlised the squad, found a way to play and got some results.

Farke was stubborn, too stubborn and was making the club even more of an embarrassment than it is now. We'll never know for sure but what ive seen is a group of sub PL players at the beginning of the season, bravely trying to play football with no hope of out playing the oppostion that way (until another group of sub PL players came along who we could just about beat). Action had to be taken and was. Smith was and is a good appointment for us. Smith simplified the game, to the level of ability we have in the squad compared to the majority of oppostion and gave us a chance. When we tried to play through teams we struggled. When we played long to Idah/Sargent with Pukki dropping deeper or feeding off second balls, we had some sucess and dare i say, excitement to our game. Even Rashica being instructed to actually use his main ability of pace was a simple but effective change. That the question of Smiths change to the club is being questioned confuses me and just smacks of feeling sorry for ourselves and wanting someone to blame. Unfortunately we're simply not good enough because we dont have the money to compete.

I simply cant get on board with the inpatient, knee jerk reaction of some fans that thinks sacking a manager who has none of his own players and has a clearly poor squad for the PL but one that could easily excel in the championship (a league he has success in), is a good idea.