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Van wink

So now we know

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1 minute ago, Monty13 said:

How can the level of the performance be irrespective of the players who are out? You realise there was another team playing tonight right? They weren’t just out there doing tricks and keepy uppies, they had to actually battle a PL quality team with a bunch of reserves.

What was the game plan, where was the commitment? 

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6 minutes ago, Orly said:

Regardless of what the score would have hypothetically been if Farke was manager, there's one thing I think most of us can agree on:

The players brought in this summer (and last summer, with a view to this one) have not been good enough for the Premier League.  And that has now happened twice.  In almost identically comical fashion (too small, slow and lightweight).

Injuries or not, we were bottom of the league before today's game (and injury list) for a reason.

Maybe no-one wanted to sign for us, in which case, can't do anything about it.  But I'm skeptical that we couldn't have spent our money better.

the player were not on the pitch you numpty!!!

 

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Just now, canarydan23 said:

Some of us can look at it from a wider perspective than a single viewpoint.

Add in points gained per pound spent for example and he's objectively not the worst manager. But you'll pick what you want to suit your point, as I will.

But if you're coming to conclusions that Farke is the worst manager in Premier League history, you either need to look at yourself or your methods, because something certainly isn't right.

I don't think Farke is the worst manager in Premier League history. However I also think Smith, at this level, is probably a better manager than him. Farke was far too much of an ideologue in my book who lacked pragmatism and the ability to adjust his style. Honestly if we'd have kept him I think we'd have failed to get to 20 points.

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Just now, canarydan23 said:

You do know that Villa were poor tonight, right? Or didn't you watch the game?

I did watch the game, they didn’t look particularly great but they had more than enough about to brush aside our makeshift team. That’s the difference in quality of what was on the pitch.

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4 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

How can the level of the performance be irrespective of the players who are out? You realise there was another team playing tonight right? They weren’t just out there doing tricks and keepy uppies, they had to actually battle a PL quality team with a bunch of reserves.

Surely they are first team squad members. We all wanted Sorenson to stay in the team. So arguably a CB was missing. Normann obviously. And Rashica.

Placheta is a Polish international. Todd an England U21 international.

Edited by keelansgrandad

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2 minutes ago, mastoola said:

the player were not on the pitch you numpty!!!

 

We were bottom before tonight injuries / absences.  Which is the point I made in my post.

And look, I responded to a post without insulting the person.  Not hard, is it?

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2 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't think Farke is the worst manager in Premier League history. However I also think Smith, at this level, is probably a better manager than him. Farke was far too much of an ideologue in my book who lacked pragmatism and the ability to adjust his style. Honestly if we'd have kept him I think we'd have failed to get to 20 points.

Brave comment considering we don't look likely to hit that under Smith.

If you cannot beat the second worst team in the league when they only have ten men for 70 minutes away, and you can't beat teams hovering around 10th and 9th in the league when you host them and they don't play well, just who the hell do you think we're going to get 10 points from?

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2 minutes ago, Van wink said:

What was the game plan, where was the commitment? 

I'd want to know what happened with Sargent, PLM and Rupp before making any conclusions on that front.

I may be wrong but I get the sense from the press conference Smith was likely planning to stick with the same XI that played Man U with Gibson or Sorenson replacing Hanley from the start. So if he had to replace Rupp and Sargent at short notice, which may have had an impact on whether he started Giannoulis or Williams then I'm not surprised our gameplan maybe didn't look right.

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When a player of Kenny McLean’s capability gets in our starting eleven whatever your always going to be in trouble. Not his fault but if you haven’t the quality to make him into just a squad player your always going to be Fuc£ed. 

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Just now, canarydan23 said:

Brave comment considering we don't look likely to hit that under Smith.

If you cannot beat the second worst team in the league when they only have ten men for 70 minutes away, and you can't beat teams hovering around 10th and 9th in the league when you host them and they don't play well, just who the hell do you think we're going to get 10 points from?

He's picked up 5 points in 6 games. We've got 21 more games left. At that rate we'd pick up 17/18 more points.

You can make a similar argument for 'if you get utterly battered by Watford at home where are you going to pick up the points from?'

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Just now, Orly said:

We were bottom before tonight injuries / absences.  Which is the point I made in my post.

And look, I responded to a post without insulting the person.  Not hard, is it?

you said the players we signed?   we had Gilmour which i will give you. Kabak with an injury     the rest are out for some reason so to say the players we signed?????    be fair

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7 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I did watch the game, they didn’t look particularly great but they had more than enough about to brush aside our makeshift team. That’s the difference in quality of what was on the pitch.

You talk as if these so called makeshift players aren't professional footballers. And also let's be honest it was the likes of Cantwell, Gibson and Superboy Gilmour who let us down, the so called makeshift players, Placheta, Sorenson were our better performers

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Just now, king canary said:

He's picked up 5 points in 6 games. We've got 21 more games left. At that rate we'd pick up 17/18 more points.

You can make a similar argument for 'if you get utterly battered by Watford at home where are you going to pick up the points from?'

You could, but that manager picked up 3 points away from home against a mid-table side before getting sacked,

Four of Dean Smith's six games in charge have been at home. We've won a game against 15th, drawn against 10th and lost to 5th and 9th. Very few teams who stay up will get a haul of 4 points at home to teams in those positions. In fact, I'd be surprised if it's ever happened.

Away we played 19th and 7th and got a point, despite playing against ten men for 70 minutes of those games.

5 points from the 6 games he has had is a woeful return. The previous six games were much easier than the next six.

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6 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'd want to know what happened with Sargent, PLM and Rupp before making any conclusions on that front.

I may be wrong but I get the sense from the press conference Smith was likely planning to stick with the same XI that played Man U with Gibson or Sorenson replacing Hanley from the start. So if he had to replace Rupp and Sargent at short notice, which may have had an impact on whether he started Giannoulis or Williams then I'm not surprised our gameplan maybe didn't look right.

From the post match press conference it seems like we had some players showing symptoms and Smith wasn't able to decide on his starting XI until today as they were checking things with the Premier League. So I think a bit of slack is due as I don't imagine this is the XI we put out without that.

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Just now, king canary said:

From the post match press conference it seems like we had some players showing symptoms and Smith wasn't able to decide on his starting XI until today as they were checking things with the Premier League. So I think a bit of slack is due as I don't imagine this is the XI we put out without that.

Any slack for the team that were not able to meet to train between their game on Saturday and tonight's match?

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1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

Surely they are first team squad members. We all wanted Sorenson to stay in the team. So arguably a CB was missing. Normann obviously. And Rashica.

Byram has been out for nearly two years, Placheta played 1100 mins of championship football across last season and this was only his second PL game this season 3 days later. Sorensen hasn’t started a game in the PL till tonight and it’s only his third appearance this season. Our 4th choice CB got injured and had to go off. Cantwell is completely off the boil, I don’t believe he’d be starting personally unless we were desperate.

We have a raft of first team starters and their usual players for rotation out of action. Let’s not pretend that was anything like our best 11, regardless of whether they are in the first team squad.

This the PL, you can’t play multiple 3rd+ choice players regularly and players out of position and expect to win games. It’s the last season we were up all over again.

 

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33 minutes ago, Van wink said:

It wasn’t Farke

No, it wasn't - didn't think so at the time and have seen nothing since to change my mind.

Webber has now screwed up big time twice this season, first in the summer & then sacking Farke (and appointing Smith!) - wonder what Delia makes of it all, think she probably realised at Brentford that they were making a huge mistake and she certainly looked pig sick tonight.

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1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

You could, but that manager picked up 3 points away from home against a mid-table side before getting sacked,

Four of Dean Smith's six games in charge have been at home. We've won a game against 15th, drawn against 10th and lost to 5th and 9th. Very few teams who stay up will get a haul of 4 points at home to teams in those positions. In fact, I'd be surprised if it's ever happened.

Away we played 19th and 7th and got a point, despite playing against ten men for 70 minutes of those games.

5 points from the 6 games he has had is a woeful return. The previous six games were much easier than the next six.

Look we're clearly not going to agree on this and the season will bare things out. Personally I don't think its a woeful return- not beating Newcastle is hugely frustrating, I think we win that game and suddenly everyone is feeling pretty sunny even if everything else stays the same. But I'm confident in my unprovable opinion that we'll end the season with more points than we would have done if we'd stuck with Farke.

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29 minutes ago, king canary said:

Here is what I don't get.

Under Farke we saw many performances significantly worse than this.

Under Smith this was our poorest effort and it comes with some caveats (I don't think many teams cope well with losing so many players at short notice). So why are we so willing to ignore the evidence of Wolves, Man U, the second half v Southampton and even some of the Spurs game after tonight?

One win in six, four of which have been at home. Outplayed for half of the game we did win. The improvement under Smith has been exaggerated on here and maybe we can now see why Farke wasnt playing Cantwell or Gilmour. 

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1 minute ago, king canary said:

But I'm confident in my unprovable opinion that we'll end the season with more points than we would have done if we'd stuck with Farke.

Wish I was. But the fact is we're heralding 3-0 defeats in games we manage a single shot on target and a 0-0 draw at home against a mid-table side in which we manage 43% possession as good performances.

5 points from 6 games, of which four you would comfortably call winnable, is dire.

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8 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

You talk as if these so called makeshift players aren't professional footballers. And also let's be honest it was the likes of Cantwell, Gibson and Superboy Gilmour who let us down, the so called makeshift players, Placheta, Sorenson were our better performers

Their professional status and their commitment isn’t the issue, it’s their level of quality. You can carry one or two non match fit/3rd+ choice players if you are lucky at this level. Not half a team of them.

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Just now, Worthy Nigelton said:

One win in six, four of which have been at home. Outplayed for half of the game we did win. The improvement under Smith has been exaggerated on here and maybe we can now see why Farke wasnt playing Cantwell or Gilmour. 

Depends how you want to look at it.

Won his first game despite a tough start after only a few days in charge. Unlucky not to beat Wolves or get a point from United, one poor PLM finish away from beating Newcastle in our worst performance. 

The results are marginally better, the performances are much better in general in my opinion. 

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Just now, king canary said:

Depends how you want to look at it.

Won his first game despite a tough start after only a few days in charge. Unlucky not to beat Wolves or get a point from United, one poor PLM finish away from beating Newcastle in our worst performance. 

Yet you wouldn't make the same excuses for Farke?

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1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Wish I was. But the fact is we're heralding 3-0 defeats in games we manage a single shot on target and a 0-0 draw at home against a mid-table side in which we manage 43% possession as good performances.

5 points from 6 games, of which four you would comfortably call winnable, is dire.

I think randomly plucking stats like that isn't a great way of looking at it.

I know lots don't like XG as a stat but it does suggest we created significantly better chances v Wolves, possession be damned.

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1 minute ago, king canary said:

Depends how you want to look at it.

Won his first game despite a tough start after only a few days in charge. Unlucky not to beat Wolves or get a point from United, one poor PLM finish away from beating Newcastle in our worst performance. 

The results are marginally better, the performances are much better in general in my opinion. 

The Newcastle draw was criminal. He's done nothing of note is the truth. We look toothless and the football is verging on long ball, boot it in the channels type stuff.

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1 minute ago, king canary said:

I think randomly plucking stats like that isn't a great way of looking at it.

I know lots don't like XG as a stat but it does suggest we created significantly better chances v Wolves, possession be damned.

If 5 points from 6 games is so good, why was Farke sacked?

And the 5 points from Farke's last 6 games was a much, much tougher run with only 2 home games compared to Dean Smith's 4.

Edited by canarydan23

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1 minute ago, Ian said:

Yet you wouldn't make the same excuses for Farke?

I would if I felt we were unlucky in many games under Farke. I don't, we were generally outplayed. We probably deserved a point v Leicester that we didn't get, outside of that? Not sure I can point to much else.

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Just now, canarydan23 said:

If 5 points from 6 games is so good, why was Farke sacked?

Come on, this is a bit stupid right?

He had 5 points from 11 games. The first 5 don't magically disappear. If we have 5 points from 11 games under Smith I'll come back and tell you how right you were.

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1 minute ago, king canary said:

I would if I felt we were unlucky in many games under Farke. I don't, we were generally outplayed. We probably deserved a point v Leicester that we didn't get, outside of that? Not sure I can point to much else.

Brighton? Burnley?

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