Match Pick - Away members

[essex canary 496]

4 hours ago, ncfcstar said:

So Essex got a seat for life by purchasing 0.16% of the ordinary shares available?  Appreciate that may have been diluted from the original investment if more shares have been allocated post the original offering.  Either way, like I said, it seems he received a pretty good deal for the investment.

If you put yourself in the shoes of a young inheritor who has never signed any such agreement with the Club but is then in a catch22 about taking on 1,000 shares as a long term 'investment' with no ongoing reward relative to any other fan at a time when the Club is handing out huge rewards for short term investment, would you still feel the same?

[Lessingham Canary 99]

19 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

I've already said what I wish to say on the matter. If @Lessingham Canary as Chairman has a different take on it, he is welcome to do so. I shall not be commenting further.

Communication is always key in any business, and its obvious the club are having issues with that at this moment, which is a shame and it is something they are keen to improve, and hopefully they will.

I agree with @Feedthewolf and along with @ncfcstar we should pick up on issues raised via supporters on this forum,  our role is to look to to present the views of all supporters and  not address issues of a purely personal interest, and will do that as best we can, and a pinned thread may well be a good way of collating genuine feedback, and with 2 regular contributors of the OSP on here everything should get seen, as already mentioned we should not get involved in historic goings on between an individual and the club.

I hope that the OSP delivers in helping present the views of all fans on matters that impact, we all want (hopefully) to have the best match day experience possible and feel a connection with our club.

On my part i visit this forum, a few times a week and keep up with discussions, but don't post so much these days. This is still the best NCFC forum for fans, and a great amount of work is achieved by so many on here, PUP's do an amazing thing, raising money week in week out and the Rays Funds thread is so well supported, it has to be the envy of so many forums across the country. If we can harness that positivity and support to help improve communications with the club then we will make real progress.

OTBC

[ncfcstar 291]

1 minute ago, essex canary said:

If you put yourself in the shoes of a young inheritor who has never signed any such agreement with the Club but is then in a catch22 about taking on 1,000 shares as a long term 'investment' with no ongoing reward relative to any other fan at a time when the Club is handing out huge rewards for short term investment, would you still feel the same?

I feel like this could result in us going around in circles.

I'm sure there are plenty of people, including the Canaries Trust, who would happily pay for your shares, and maybe the young inheritor you speak of may wish to receive a nice little windfall that they could put to good use elsewhere.

[TIL 1010 4,746]

45 minutes ago, ncfcstar said:

I feel like this could result in us going around in circles.

I'm sure there are plenty of people, including the Canaries Trust, who would happily pay for your shares, and maybe the young inheritor you speak of may wish to receive a nice little windfall that they could put to good use elsewhere.

1,000 shares at say £40 or £50 a share is a tidy sum to find.

[hogesar 9,671]

Whenever I think i've sussed it something then changes; what is it that Essex actually wants from the club?

[king canary 7,606]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

Whenever I think i've sussed it something then changes; what is it that Essex actually wants from the club?

Essex right now...

 

[essex canary 496]

32 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

1,000 shares at say £40 or £50 a share is a tidy sum to find.

Quite. Having been in there for 19 years and looking at the Clubs growth in physical assets in that period, I wouldn't want to get out for less than £60 and I doubt whether it is available therefore it is reasonable to claim that some kind of ongoing return ought to be available as an alternative for such an inheritor.

Moreover I received no benefit during the Covid year plus whilst directors appear to still have received reward for their lower risk preference shares during the same period. 

The first point is still very much a current ongoing issue.

 

[ncfcstar 291]

10 minutes ago, essex canary said:

Quite. Having been in there for 19 years and looking at the Clubs growth in physical assets in that period, I wouldn't want to get out for less than £60 and I doubt whether it is available therefore it is reasonable to claim that some kind of ongoing return ought to be available as an alternative for such an inheritor.

Moreover I received no benefit during the Covid year plus whilst directors appear to still have received reward for their lower risk preference shares during the same period. 

The first point is still very much a current ongoing issue.

 

I don't know if you are trolling or not now Essex, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt considering you've taken the matter to an ombudsman.

As someone who had the ability to invest £25k into the club in the early 00s, I'm going to make the assumption that you probably have investments elsewhere too.  Some I will assume pay a dividend to you, some probably don't and you've traded for profits along the way.  You knew what you were purchasing when you invested that money into the club, and they've provided that for you, as the ombudsman found.

The fact that you might not be able to get £60 a share is neither here not there, if no one is prepared to offer you £60 a share then the shares simply aren't worth £60 a share.  The club are not required to compensate you because the share isn't valued at your expectation.  But I'm sure you are well aware of that.

[essex canary 496]

1 hour ago, Lessingham Canary said:

Communication is always key in any business, and its obvious the club are having issues with that at this moment, which is a shame and it is something they are keen to improve, and hopefully they will.

I agree with @Feedthewolf and along with @ncfcstar we should pick up on issues raised via supporters on this forum,  our role is to look to to present the views of all supporters and  not address issues of a purely personal interest, and will do that as best we can, and a pinned thread may well be a good way of collating genuine feedback, and with 2 regular contributors of the OSP on here everything should get seen, as already mentioned we should not get involved in historic goings on between an individual and the club.

I hope that the OSP delivers in helping present the views of all fans on matters that impact, we all want (hopefully) to have the best match day experience possible and feel a connection with our club.

On my part i visit this forum, a few times a week and keep up with discussions, but don't post so much these days. This is still the best NCFC forum for fans, and a great amount of work is achieved by so many on here, PUP's do an amazing thing, raising money week in week out and the Rays Funds thread is so well supported, it has to be the envy of so many forums across the country. If we can harness that positivity and support to help improve communications with the club then we will make real progress.

OTBC

Thanks Lessingham. In my response to TIL I have reinforced that the items are still in a sense ongoing or very recent historic.

Everyone and anyone's judgement is to some extent informed by their personal experience, that doesn't equate to the issues being solely personal and I don't think the means of expression that I used in the Supporters Panel paper that I was assured would be passed onto you 4 months ago could be deemed as personal in the way they are expressed. I would have thought the best way forward is for the Club to pass on the paper to the Panel who could make their own judgement as to their validity or otherwise. It would be better to have an objective fans view as distinct from the Clubs, from my vantage point, somewhat partial take.

Leaving aside the case itself it also has the scope to provide a good case study in to how the Clubs procedures for handling and/or better still, avoiding an IFO case works.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Have you tried the shareholders association Essex? There must be quite a few in the same boat as you.

#strength in numbers

 

[GMF 742]

2 hours ago, essex canary said:

Quite. Having been in there for 19 years and looking at the Clubs growth in physical assets in that period, I wouldn't want to get out for less than £60 and I doubt whether it is available therefore it is reasonable to claim that some kind of ongoing return ought to be available as an alternative for such an inheritor.

Moreover I received no benefit during the Covid year plus whilst directors appear to still have received reward for their lower risk preference shares during the same period. 

The first point is still very much a current ongoing issue.

 

Essex, as I’ve previously mentioned, the Club’s shares are unlisted securities, they’re not actually traded on any authorised stock exchange and, as a consequence, it’s impossible to obtain any current pricing information. They’re effectively worth whatever a wiling buyer and a willing seller is prepared to agree to trade them at.

In fact, the vast majority of transfers each year, as can be seen on the Club’s annual confirmation statement, filed each year at Companies House, tend to be between family members, or friends, typically on the passing of the existing shareholder and therefore at nil consideration.

Any transfers for consideration are, of course, private.

If you really are minded to dispose of your shares, you can always list them on the Trust’s website, linked below.

https://www.canariestrust.org/ncfc-shares

There’s three parties, all with relatively sizeable holdings, at differing quoting prices, all of which have been listed for some time.

[GMF 742]

26 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Have you tried the shareholders association Essex? There must be quite a few in the same boat as you.

#strength in numbers

 

Do they actually still exist @nutty nigel?

[nutty nigel 7,534]

5 minutes ago, GMF said:

Do they actually still exist @nutty nigel?

Maybe not? But I can't remember seeing they'd folded. 

There must be many other shareholders in the same position as Essex. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by nutty nigel

[GMF 742]

19 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Maybe not? But I can't remember seeing they'd folded. 

There must be many other shareholders in the same position as Essex. 

You’re testing the brain here but, if you’re referring to the group run by Terry Pyle (?) then I’m pretty sure it has ceased.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

@GMF a bit of a Google suggests they are not a thing anymore.

It just seems Essex is a lone voice. Their must be other associate directors? In the same boat? Alan Bowkett was one before he joined the board.

Edited August 10, 2021 by nutty nigel

[essex canary 496]

7 hours ago, ncfcstar said:

I don't know if you are trolling or not now Essex, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt considering you've taken the matter to an ombudsman.

As someone who had the ability to invest £25k into the club in the early 00s, I'm going to make the assumption that you probably have investments elsewhere too.  Some I will assume pay a dividend to you, some probably don't and you've traded for profits along the way.  You knew what you were purchasing when you invested that money into the club, and they've provided that for you, as the ombudsman found.

The fact that you might not be able to get £60 a share is neither here not there, if no one is prepared to offer you £60 a share then the shares simply aren't worth £60 a share.  The club are not required to compensate you because the share isn't valued at your expectation.  But I'm sure you are well aware of that.

Some investments you gain some you lose - fair enough. I am not in the habit of investing in private limited companies with a community aspect other than NCFC. I would reasonably have expected that returns would be modest because of the community aspect. I fully accept that the £60k which is still in some respects modest isn't on the table.

You have claimed and so have others that this investment is good. Compared to buying say 200 shares for which there were benefits for only a year or so clearly it is. Compared to not buying shares at all, how is it good?

The Clubs claim in the IFO report is that in effect my £25,000 is used up after 17 years given the current commercial seat price of £1,500 and that I am now living on a freebie so to speak. That is spurious as the average seat price over the period has probably been more like £1,000 therefore leaving a 25 year life span. Secondly none of that takes account of the price of money as represented by interest rates or dividend logic albeit such returns would be in kind not cash.

Of course the shares are still worth something but there are still high risks eg. suppose Covid19 had been Covid17?

It is not logical to me as to why shareholders apparently need benefits to retain their shares up to certain dates but not beyond them. Logically anyone either needed the encouragement to retain all the time or none of the time. Even if a cut off time was to be applied to use Death as that marker is in my view a very poor choice for a Club priding itself on community and family principles. If they wanted a finite time period it would have been far better to have quoted it in date format.

[Greavsy 2,413]

9 hours ago, ncfcstar said:

I feel like this could result in us going around in circles.

I think you're right 

[Jim Smith 2,317]

7 hours ago, essex canary said:

Some investments you gain some you lose - fair enough. I am not in the habit of investing in private limited companies with a community aspect other than NCFC. I would reasonably have expected that returns would be modest because of the community aspect. I fully accept that the £60k which is still in some respects modest isn't on the table.

You have claimed and so have others that this investment is good. Compared to buying say 200 shares for which there were benefits for only a year or so clearly it is. Compared to not buying shares at all, how is it good?

The Clubs claim in the IFO report is that in effect my £25,000 is used up after 17 years given the current commercial seat price of £1,500 and that I am now living on a freebie so to speak. That is spurious as the average seat price over the period has probably been more like £1,000 therefore leaving a 25 year life span. Secondly none of that takes account of the price of money as represented by interest rates or dividend logic albeit such returns would be in kind not cash.

Of course the shares are still worth something but there are still high risks eg. suppose Covid19 had been Covid17?

It is not logical to me as to why shareholders apparently need benefits to retain their shares up to certain dates but not beyond them. Logically anyone either needed the encouragement to retain all the time or none of the time. Even if a cut off time was to be applied to use Death as that marker is in my view a very poor choice for a Club priding itself on community and family principles. If they wanted a finite time period it would have been far better to have quoted it in date format.

Forgive my ignorance but what precisely if your issue with how you have been treated?

[essex canary 496]

In the Times interview in November 2016 Delia said how fans are so badly treated. Well they are including through madcap schemes such as our away members nonsense and failure to renew our minority shareholder initiative which is the most extensive of any club in the country including the integration of young people. 

[priceyrice 123]

On 09/08/2021 at 21:45, Feedthewolf said:

Cheers for your input, Greavsy.

I think there may well be a number of issues/comments that touch upon this overarching theme of poor communications, so if anyone has any specific examples they think should be considered, feel free to add them below until such time as we have a dedicated thread. From memory:

* No communication from the club to explain delay in sending out membership packs (obviously was contingent upon easing of coronavirus measures, but a short press release/e-shot/social media post would have done the trick);

* Difficulty in contacting/getting through to ticket office, instances of staff being unhelpful or even rude (see @priceyrice's post from this morning);

* Lack of clarity in comms surrounding priority of away tickets between 'match picks' and the 'priority group' of away regulars (as discussed with @TIL 1010 and others)

* I think there was some ambiguity about Covid-19 matchday procedures? Is that worth including?

 

Just as an update. I have still not received the 2 season tickets and the game is now almost 48 hours away. 

I have spent yesterday and today trying to get through to the ticket office with no luck and the line constantly having a full queue. I have today emailed a representative of the club directly thanks to Greavsy. 

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

4 minutes ago, priceyrice said:

Just as an update. I have still not received the 2 season tickets and the game is now almost 48 hours away. 

I have spent yesterday and today trying to get through to the ticket office with no luck and the line constantly having a full queue. I have today emailed a representative of the club directly thanks to Greavsy. 

Thanks for the update. Sorry to hear that this still hasn't been resolved 😞

[ncfcstar 291]

4 minutes ago, priceyrice said:

Just as an update. I have still not received the 2 season tickets and the game is now almost 48 hours away. 

I have spent yesterday and today trying to get through to the ticket office with no luck and the line constantly having a full queue. I have today emailed a representative of the club directly thanks to Greavsy. 

This might be a long shot, but if you are able to have you tried to visit the Fan Hub in the city?  They are still acting as a ticket office there, and perhaps they'd be able to sort out physical tickets for the match for you?

As an assurance, @Feedthewolf @Lessingham Canary and myself will make sure these issues are brought up at our next meeting.

[priceyrice 123]

Thank you for ensuring this will be raised with the club. I will see what response I get today and if not I will visit the fan hub tomorrow and see if they're any more useful. I am concerned as I can't get to the game early on Saturday to pick tickets up there if needs be. 

I'm just shocked that with 2 days before the first home game some people do not have their season tickets. Surely it can't just be me having this issue. 

[ncfcstar 291]

3 minutes ago, priceyrice said:

Thank you for ensuring this will be raised with the club. I will see what response I get today and if not I will visit the fan hub tomorrow and see if they're any more useful. I am concerned as I can't get to the game early on Saturday to pick tickets up there if needs be. 

I'm just shocked that with 2 days before the first home game some people do not have their season tickets. Surely it can't just be me having this issue. 

I agree it's disappointing, and not very difficult for the club to get right.

That being said, I'd imagine there aren't actually that many people getting new season tickets sent to them, the majority will be renewals and they already have their tickets from previous seasons.  Not that is absolves the club at all, but you are probably in a select few who are actually getting a ticket sent to them.

[Greavsy 2,413]

11 minutes ago, priceyrice said:

Just as an update. I have still not received the 2 season tickets and the game is now almost 48 hours away. 

I have spent yesterday and today trying to get through to the ticket office with no luck and the line constantly having a full queue. I have today emailed a representative of the club directly thanks to Greavsy. 

Happy to help a fellow fan, and good luck. 

On a slightly side note, my son managed to get through to them yesterday to get some Man City away tickets. Don't mean to ask a daft question, but are you sure you have the correct number. I remember it changing from a chargeable number (0345 or maybe 0870) to an 01603 one. 

[Commonsense 623]

On 10/08/2021 at 16:17, essex canary said:

Quite. Having been in there for 19 years and looking at the Clubs growth in physical assets in that period, I wouldn't want to get out for less than £60 and I doubt whether it is available therefore it is reasonable to claim that some kind of ongoing return ought to be available as an alternative for such an inheritor.

Moreover I received no benefit during the Covid year plus whilst directors appear to still have received reward for their lower risk preference shares during the same period. 

The first point is still very much a current ongoing issue.

 

Isn’t the whole point of preference shares that you get the dividend first with less risk. Hence the name of them. I can’t believe that anybody investing a substantial amount wasn’t aware of this at the time!!

[Jim Smith 2,317]

1 hour ago, priceyrice said:

Thank you for ensuring this will be raised with the club. I will see what response I get today and if not I will visit the fan hub tomorrow and see if they're any more useful. I am concerned as I can't get to the game early on Saturday to pick tickets up there if needs be. 

I'm just shocked that with 2 days before the first home game some people do not have their season tickets. Surely it can't just be me having this issue. 

Its a bit confusing as some people seem to have been sent new season tickets whereas I received a letter saying i should use my existing card. Not sure what the difference is between us?

[Pete Raven 276]

35 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Its a bit confusing as some people seem to have been sent new season tickets whereas I received a letter saying i should use my existing card. Not sure what the difference is between us?

You're an existing season ticket holder, they are new season ticket holders.

[Greavsy 2,413]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

Its a bit confusing as some people seem to have been sent new season tickets whereas I received a letter saying i should use my existing card. Not sure what the difference is between us?

As SDP has said. Existing season ticket holders continue to use their tickets. 

The following will be / have been issued new ones. 

New season ticket holders. 

Seat moves

Change in age bracket 

Replacement for faulty or  lost(*) 

(*) Lost ticket are chargeable replacements. 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Greavsy

[priceyrice 123]

3 hours ago, Greavsy said:

Happy to help a fellow fan, and good luck. 

On a slightly side note, my son managed to get through to them yesterday to get some Man City away tickets. Don't mean to ask a daft question, but are you sure you have the correct number. I remember it changing from a chargeable number (0345 or maybe 0870) to an 01603 one. 

You'll see on the other thread it appears I'm all sorted now, thank you for your help with this, greatly appreciated. 

Yes it was the Norwich number I was using, I think it's pure luck if you get through since it depends whether the queue is full or not at that moment you call. Danny told me the lines have been jammed this week and last with the number if people who are not aware they should be using last year's ticket. I mean, I only got the letter about that at the weekend so I can't blame people for phoning up and enquiring about a new season ticket.