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Anyone take the view that his challenge on Saka was worthy of a red card? In my view that was pretty violent as it sent Saka crashing down on his back.  The tackle on Grealish with studs up was a definite red card too.

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1 minute ago, lake district canary said:

Anyone take the view that his challenge on Saka was worthy of a red card? In my view that was pretty violent as it sent Saka crashing down on his back.  The tackle on Grealish with studs up was a definite red card too.

No

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It's a shirt pull, yes a particularly aggressive one, but still only a yellow unfortunately. 

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If an England or Norwich player got sent off for that we'd be furious. It was a cynical 'professional' challenge but within the current laws of the game it was a booking. It is the kind of challenge that makes me think rules need to change- a yellow doesn't seem punishment enough for cynically stopping a breakaway like that but red seems too harsh. Maybe this is where sin bins become an idea?

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Yellow at the very most. For it to be red it has to be "serious foul play". Anyone thinking a shirt pull is serious foul play is probably looking at it with white and red lenses.

A yellow card is absolutely fine for that. No other punishment needed.

Edited by TheGunnShow

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Don’t disagree that it was a “shirt pull”. But a shirt pull with that much force it took him off his feet horizontally backwards.Come on guys players have been sent off for much less. Plus he was away from him and likely to be heading for the box.

I wouldn’t change my mind if it was an England or A Norwich player.

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2 minutes ago, Grantham yellow said:

Don’t disagree that it was a “shirt pull”. But a shirt pull with that much force it took him off his feet horizontally backwards.Come on guys players have been sent off for much less. Plus he was away from him and likely to be heading for the box.

I wouldn’t change my mind if it was an England or A Norwich player.

Doesn't matter, the phrase used in the Laws of Football is "serious foul play". As a rule it has to be seen to endanger the health of a player, usually due to being reckless or even malicious in impact.

The fact he might have been heading for the box is also irrelevant. The old aspect of serious foul play was the notion of denying a clear goalscoring opportunity. That didn't apply here either, but I suspect this is the one that's getting people thinking that a red could have been on the agenda.

Anyone thinking that's a red is wrong though. In fact, I'd argue stuff like that is precisely why you have so much simulation nowadays.

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The only way that could have been considered a red would have been if Chiellini was last man, he wasn't. 

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It’s an Orange card, which sadly is yet to exist in the game. It’s not worth a sending off but maybe a 10 minute sin bin.

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Hard to argue clear goalscoring opportunity, but Id still make the argument. We know who is o=going to win that race and so did Chiellini.

The studs up one was as bad as Danielson's imo.

I also think Sterling should have had a penalty. It was way more of a penalty than the one he actually got against Denmark

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5 minutes ago, WD40 said:

It’s an Orange card, which sadly is yet to exist in the game. It’s not worth a sending off but maybe a 10 minute sin bin.

This, basically. I hate the way players can just 'take the yellow' in situations like this but a red would be too much.

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12 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Doesn't matter, the phrase used in the Laws of Football is "serious foul play". As a rule it has to be seen to endanger the health of a player, usually due to being reckless or even malicious in impact.

The fact he might have been heading for the box is also irrelevant. The old aspect of serious foul play was the notion of denying a clear goalscoring opportunity. That didn't apply here either, but I suspect this is the one that's getting people thinking that a red could have been on the agenda.

Anyone thinking that's a red is wrong though. In fact, I'd argue stuff like that is precisely why you have so much simulation nowadays.

That's one of the few tackles that is banned in American Football, it gets you ejected from the game and a fine.  Its called a horse collar tackle and is dangerous and results in severe injuries if he falls wrong. 

 

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Overall though I think the ref was decent - he was consistent and ignored the Italians rolling on the floor after challenges as much as he ignored the usual suspects on the England team doing the same.  This let the game flow. 

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2 minutes ago, Haus said:

That's one of the few tackles that is banned in American Football, it gets you ejected from the game and a fine.  Its called a horse collar tackle and is dangerous and results in severe injuries if he falls wrong. 

 

Can say that about any sort of tackle though. In fact, we've seen plenty where all you need for a bad injury is for studs to be caught in the grass.

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Whilst I appreciate everyone’s opinion and you are all entitled to them, I will stick to mine. 
Gunny, thanks for the interpretation of the rule, however, I would still argue that to throw, literally, somebody on his back who didn’t know it was coming, he had is back to him, is endangering him. 
At least in rugby you know you are likely to get it.
I agree that there was cover so wasn’t a clear cut run on goal.

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1 minute ago, Grantham yellow said:

Whilst I appreciate everyone’s opinion and you are all entitled to them, I will stick to mine. 
Gunny, thanks for the interpretation of the rule, however, I would still argue that to throw, literally, somebody on his back who didn’t know it was coming, he had is back to him, is endangering him. 
At least in rugby you know you are likely to get it.
I agree that there was cover so wasn’t a clear cut run on goal.

He's grabbed his shirt, no more. (Besides, I refereed for ten years, this doesn't even come close when it comes to potential red cards. You're generally looking at impact fouls at tackles for that.)

What I think confused folk was the position - if that had been central and Chiellini was last man, it's an easy red card for serious foul play due to taking out the clear goalscoring opportunity. But this was on the flank at half-way.

Edited by TheGunnShow

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Gunny, not arguing that you know more of the rules than I, after all I’m just a spectator, however, shirt pull or not that was a reckless challenge and could have given Sako a serious internal injury. Luckily he wasn’t.

Thanks for the debate, I’ll leave it at that.

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29 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Well, if pulling a fast moving player forcefully down on his back isn't dangerous play, I don't know what is.

You have to look at the incident / offence, not the outcome of it. 

Ie it was a shirt pull, that had more impact because it was the collar of the shirt, agreed. 

The fact the player landed on his back is irrelevant. 

Spin it the other way - for example, not every time when a player gets their leg broken in a tackle is there are sending off. 

 

Edited by Greavsy

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There is an argument which says pulling someone by the neck of their shirt with force is only a yellow but squaring up and touching heads with an opponent is deemed worthy of a red card. Something doesn't quite sit right there, but in the rules of the game as they are its a yellow only.

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1 minute ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Chiellini's shirt pull is a clear yellow, but never a red. He didn't endanger an opponent and it wasn't a clear goalscoring opportunity, so that's a yellow.

Jorginho's should've been a red though. It was worse than Freuler's tackle in the quarter final which was punished by a red.

How is dragging a player down on to his back not damgerous? 

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5 minutes ago, hogesar said:

There is an argument which says pulling someone by the neck of their shirt with force is only a yellow but squaring up and touching heads with an opponent is deemed worthy of a red card. Something doesn't quite sit right there, but in the rules of the game as they are its a yellow only.

I think thats more down to the definition of a head butt. Some of the things they call a head butt, and what the players go down rolling around for are embarrassing. Which then leads the topic into simulation tactics 

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4 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

How is dragging a player down on to his back not damgerous? 

You have to look at the incident / offence, not the outcome of it. 

Ie it was a shirt pull, that had more impact because it was the collar of the shirt, agreed. 

The fact the player landed on his back is irrelevant. 

Spin it the other way - for example, not every time when a player gets their leg broken in a tackle is there are sending off. 

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1 minute ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

In that case, 10-15 challenges per game are dangerous.

It wasn't a challenge or a tackle though, it was a blatant aggressive act purely to stop the opponent. Shirt pulls are one thing, they happen a lot, but ths was a bit more than a shirt pull and if he had landed badly, could have had serious consequences.

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