England Vs Italy

[canarydan23 4,060]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

The hope is in 2022 and 2024 players like Foden, Saka, Rice have taken a further step forward and those are the most talented squads we've had. However my concern is having come some close this time the hype and pressure on them is going to be too much.

Yep, this squad is only going to improve. I think Henderson and Tripper are the only players in it that whose age starts with a 3. And let's be honest, we won't miss Henderson and whilst Trippier is a valuable addition, we're not exactly short on right-back talent.

However, for reasons already discussed, I don't have any faith in Southgate to get the best out of what should be a squad that improves significantly between now and Qatar and then Germany.

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

That's because you're picking it.

If you cannot see that this England squad is comfortably one of the most talented squads we've had going into a major tournament since arguably 2002, maybe 2006 at a push, then I really don't know what to say to you.

If you are totally ignorant of the talent of the other countries players in the tournament then I really don't know what to say to you. You have your head in the clouds if you think England is a great football nation. After every European tournament UEFA names a team/squad of the tournament. To date they have selected 220 players. Of those only 6 are English. 

[king canary 7,607]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Yep, this squad is only going to improve. I think Henderson and Tripper are the only players in it that whose age starts with a 3. And let's be honest, we won't miss Henderson and whilst Trippier is a valuable addition, we're not exactly short on right-back talent.

However, for reasons already discussed, I don't have any faith in Southgate to get the best out of what should be a squad that improves significantly between now and Qatar and then Germany.

Walker is 31 too.

We'll have to see on Southgate. I think his tournament track record so far means he deserves a fair amount of benefit of the doubt. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, dylanisabaddog said:

If you are totally ignorant of the talent of the other countries players in the tournament then I really don't know what to say to you. You have your head in the clouds if you think England is a great football nation. After every European tournament UEFA names a team/squad of the tournament. To date they have selected 220 players. Of those only 6 are English. 

Had a few last night, did you?

Grab yourself a coffee, it'll soon wear off.

[king canary 7,607]

10 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Do you think it's possible that they only conceded two goals because of the luck of the draw? The average FIFA ranking of the teams England played before last night was more than 20!

No I don't. You don't have the best defensive record in the tournament based on 'luck.'

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, king canary said:

Walker is 31 too.

We'll have to see on Southgate. I think his tournament track record so far means he deserves a fair amount of benefit of the doubt. 

Forgot about him. We won't miss him either. I think he's another of the favourites that get a look in when they don't deserve it. I just about get it when we play with three centre-backs, but picking him as a right-back in a back four when you have Trippier, James and Trent A-A when fit is almost as baffling to me as picking Mount when Foden, Grealish or Maddision are available.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

4 minutes ago, WD40 said:

Come on lad. Going mid height, and no where near the corner is not making the keeper work in a penalty shootout. 

Completely disagree, fella. If the keeper has to put a body part on it to keep it out on what is a free hit from twelve yards out, he's had to work.

Remember, keepers also have a decision to make - do they pick a side early, or do they hold their ground late? Go too early, and even penalties that are considered poor go in. Goalies face a lot of stress in penalty shootouts for precisely that reason (played in too many as a goalie in small-sided tournaments to count!) as if they go too early, a generally average penalty on the other side goes in, and if they stand their ground, anything pretty well hit that's vaguely near the sides is bound to get in.

Both Donnarumma and Pickford did well in that shootout. There's a knack to picking off the direction of the kick on the downswing, and they both got it to stick.

[Ken Hairy 3,772]

Haven't read the 9 pages so might be repeating a few things, but here's my take on last night. 

After getting off to the start we all dreamed of, we unfortunately got it tactically wrong, let the Italians control the game, let them get away with the dark arts so to speak too much. 

Mancini got his tactics, his subs spot on, Southgate on this occasion did not. This isn't a criticism of Southgate too much, we must remember he's only the 2nd manager to get us to a final, however his ludicrous decision to bring on Sancho and Rashford purely for a penalty kick will probably haunt him for as long as his 96 miss has. Rashford especially, personally I wouldn't have had him in the 26, he's not progressed at all after bursting on the scene, and his penalty was one of the worst I've ever seen with that stupid stupid run up. 

Southgate also said the penalty takers were solely up to him, well he got that wrong too then, I don't believe for a minute Sterling or Grealish wouldn't have wanted one. 

I just hope Southgate learns from last night as we move on to the world cup next year. 

[king canary 7,607]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Forgot about him. We won't miss him either. I think he's another of the favourites that get a look in when they don't deserve it. I just about get it when we play with three centre-backs, but picking him as a right-back in a back four when you have Trippier, James and Trent A-A when fit is almost as baffling to me as picking Mount when Foden, Grealish or Maddision are available.

He's excellent as a back 3 central defender because of his pace and ability to carry the ball. I'm not shocked we didn't see much of James, I thought he looked really poor v Scotland. 

I can see Maddison ending up like Le Tissier or similar- hugely talented but due to attitude and other issues ends up missing out. 

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, king canary said:

He's excellent as a back 3 central defender because of his pace and ability to carry the ball. I'm not shocked we didn't see much of James, I thought he looked really poor v Scotland. 

I can see Maddison ending up like Le Tissier or similar- hugely talented but due to attitude and other issues ends up missing out. 

 

He didn't have a great game against Scotland, but if you're judging players on there performance against Scotland then no one really comes out with much credit. I hate to sound like a broken record, but he was no worse than Mount, for example, probably a bit better in that he was a defender in a team that kept a clean sheet as opposed to a more advanced play in a team that created diddly squit against the tournament's second worst ranked team.

And his previous game before that match was in a Champions League final in which he kept a player who was about to go and tear up the Euros (Sterling) in his pocket all game.

I'm not shocked we didn't see him, I think Trippier is a better right-back, but I would categorically have him over calamity Kyle in a flat back four.

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

9 minutes ago, king canary said:

No I don't. You don't have the best defensive record in the tournament based on 'luck.'

So if Norwich played 6 teams from League 1 and didn't concede a goal you would think it was because we had the best defence in the country? For goodness sake try to take a less blinkered and more realistic view. Do you seriously think Maguire and Stones are better centre halves than the two who played for Italy last night? 

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

23 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Or Raheem Sterling.

Definitely not Sterling. Very good against the lesser teams but disappointing against the better teams. He hardly set the world on fire last night. 

[Indy 3,300]

3 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Definitely not Sterling. Very good against the lesser teams but disappointing against the better teams. He hardly set the world on fire last night. 

Was a passenger last night, was crying out to bring on Grealish and Rashford. Kane and Sterling stayed o e pitch due to reputation not performance.

[WD40 720]

19 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Completely disagree, fella. If the keeper has to put a body part on it to keep it out on what is a free hit from twelve yards out, he's had to work.

Remember, keepers also have a decision to make - do they pick a side early, or do they hold their ground late? Go too early, and even penalties that are considered poor go in. Goalies face a lot of stress in penalty shootouts for precisely that reason (played in too many as a goalie in small-sided tournaments to count!) as if they go too early, a generally average penalty on the other side goes in, and if they stand their ground, anything pretty well hit that's vaguely near the sides is bound to get in.

Both Donnarumma and Pickford did well in that shootout. There's a knack to picking off the direction of the kick on the downswing, and they both got it to stick.

Donnarumma deserves credit for doing the homework and picking the right side. But that’s where the ‘work ends’. Once he’s dived the right way, the penalties were a doddle. Look at Kanes penalty when Donnarumma picks the right side. If he wanted to save that he would have had to have worked really hard and stretched to reach. 
 

I am by no means saying penalties are easy, but Sancho and Saka took bad penalties.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Disappointing end to a tournament in which personally, I was bored too many times to say it was good but did lift the nation to a certain extent. We all have our opinions and no-one can say theirs is the right one.

It was a tournament. One that Greece, Portugal and Czechoslovakia have won. So it isn't always the favourites. Its on the day in a tournament and we came up short.  We came second which isn't bad and if we had listened to the pundits and bookies then we wouldn't have made the final.

Now we move on to the real deal and look forward to club football once again.

[Fuzzar 1,702]

5 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Definitely not Sterling. Very good against the lesser teams but disappointing against the better teams. He hardly set the world on fire last night. 

If we'd beaten Italy he'd have won player of the tournament.

[canarydan23 4,060]

6 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Definitely not Sterling. Very good against the lesser teams but disappointing against the better teams. He hardly set the world on fire last night. 

Hang on, you said we didn't play any better teams other than Italy.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 minute ago, WD40 said:

Donnarumma deserves credit for doing the homework and picking the right side. But that’s where the ‘work ends’. Once he’s dived the right way, the penalties were a doddle. Look at Kanes penalty when Donnarumma picks the right side. If he wanted to save that he would have had to have worked really hard and stretched to reach. 
 

I am by no means saying penalties are easy, but Sancho and Saka took bad penalties.

You're a harsher critic than I am on that, that's the discussion in a nutshell.

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

We came second which isn't bad and if we had listened to the pundits and bookies then we wouldn't have made the final.

That's not true, some bookies had us as favourites and other had us second favourites to France. The bookies had us making the final or winning it. From the Quarter Finals onwards, we were consistently the bookies favourites.

[king canary 7,607]

16 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

He didn't have a great game against Scotland, but if you're judging players on there performance against Scotland then no one really comes out with much credit. I hate to sound like a broken record, but he was no worse than Mount, for example, probably a bit better in that he was a defender in a team that kept a clean sheet as opposed to a more advanced play in a team that created diddly squit against the tournament's second worst ranked team.

And his previous game before that match was in a Champions League final in which he kept a player who was about to go and tear up the Euros (Sterling) in his pocket all game.

I'm not shocked we didn't see him, I think Trippier is a better right-back, but I would categorically have him over calamity Kyle in a flat back four.

I think longer term you'd be looking at a team setting up like this....

                       Pickford

TAA    Stones     Maguire       Shaw

                  Rice     Phillips

    Sancho     Foden       Sterling

                       Kane

           

[Well b back 3,208]

11 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Definitely not Sterling. Very good against the lesser teams but disappointing against the better teams. He hardly set the world on fire last night. 

Gosh

He was and still maybe on the verge of being named player of the tournament.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Just now, king canary said:

I think longer term you'd be looking at a team setting up like this....

                       Pickford

TAA    Stones     Maguire       Shaw

                  Rice     Phillips

    Sancho     Foden       Sterling

                       Kane

           

Personally, I'd think in terms of partnerships up top. So Foden and Sterling should be together, but if Sancho's going to be on the pitch, Rashford (or in the long term, Greenwood) should be around. Obviously, if Kane ends up at Man City, that's even better from an international perspective as you'd think all three would know their games intimately after a few months at the same club.

Might need an experiment to see if one of England's myriad number 10s can play twenty yards back. I'd experiment with Rice and Mount together for similar reasons as they played together as juniors for ages. Don't think Maddison's quite got the defensive workrate to make it stick there unless you go Christmas tree and let someone basically play Pirlo, Rice becomes "Gattuso" and then you need a box-to-box man. Which could be Mount.

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

I think longer term you'd be looking at a team setting up like this....

                       Pickford

TAA    Stones     Maguire       Shaw

                  Rice     Phillips

    Sancho     Foden       Sterling

                       Kane

           

I genuinely think that team, played the right way, could expect to get to the semi finals in Qatar, even without a fortuitous draw. France will be good having had a kick up the backside at this tournament and Brazil and Argentina will throw their hat into the favourites ring, but other than those three that team wouldn't have to fear anyone.

I do think Pope or Henderson are potentially better keepers than Pickford but Southgate loves him and in fairness he's never really let him down in an England shirt, he seems to save his somewhat too frequent howlers for when he is in an Everton shirt.

[sgncfc 1,228]

2 hours ago, Tetteys Jig said:

give over... have you ever seen a game in Italy? People act like England are the only place with these idiots and its a completely deluded take

Absolutely this. I went to the Madrid derby a couple of years ago and have never seen people behave so badly - not just a few; everyone. Yet the next day you couldn't wish to meet nicer people. Everyone is an idiot a few times in their lives, and football is just the place where it happens the most.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

Southgate and England were very nearly spot on in this tournament and if it were not for spot kicks very nearly won it. 

To navigate the group stage successfully one must not lose, so a more cautious approach is appropriate, and that is just what we did. When it came to the knockout stages we were more on the front foot but still maintained a defensive balance which was good enough to propel England to the final. 

So we were up against a word class, football savvy team and Southgate reverted to a more cautious balance. Having scored in the second minute it could be argued the tactics were spot on, especially since we were finding lots of space on the wings. 

However Italy and Mancini are canny players and reformed and using all the trickery in their arsenal, came back at us. In hindsight we should have been braver at one nil up and taken more risks. I would have brought on Grealish at half time as he is the most Italian of English players and would have brought his trickery to higher areas up the pitch and fed Kane and Sterling much better than we were doing. 

We thought we could hold onto a single goal and see out the match. Southgate did go riskier when it came to the penalties. Had it worked out he would be hailed as a genius. As I wanted him to be braver during the match I can't complain when he did in the shootout. 

Before the tournament I thought Southgate had peaked. That was wrong. He did very well in getting us to the final. Italy are a better side with a more experienced manager but we came within a whisker of pulling off a famous victory

 

 

 

 

 

 

[king canary 7,607]

7 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Personally, I'd think in terms of partnerships up top. So Foden and Sterling should be together, but if Sancho's going to be on the pitch, Rashford (or in the long term, Greenwood) should be around. Obviously, if Kane ends up at Man City, that's even better from an international perspective as you'd think all three would know their games intimately after a few months at the same club.

Might need an experiment to see if one of England's myriad number 10s can play twenty yards back. I'd experiment with Rice and Mount together for similar reasons as they played together as juniors for ages. Don't think Maddison's quite got the defensive workrate to make it stick there unless you go Christmas tree and let someone basically play Pirlo, Rice becomes "Gattuso" and then you need a box-to-box man. Which could be Mount.

I get your point but I think you slightly overdo it on the partnerships idea to be honest. Kane is a significantly better player than Rashford for example so I'd take him starting even if he doesn't have a club level team mate in the attacking midfield three and Rashford does. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Just now, king canary said:

I get your point but I think you slightly overdo it on the partnerships idea to be honest. Kane is a significantly better player than Rashford for example so I'd take him starting even if he doesn't have a club level team mate in the attacking midfield three and Rashford does. 

I think you took it the other way around, I'd leave Sancho on the bench and put another player there in the starting line-up. Maybe Sterling on the right, Grealish on the left. But if I had Sancho on the field, I'd definitely look to maximise the time Rashford had with him and vice versa.

Not saying that Kane isn't better, but my argument really is this: get a provider and the striker he's most familiar with together.

[Midlands Yellow 3,985]

I said I wanted to take one!!!! The gaffer has made so many right decisions through this tournament and he did tonight! But I won’t have people say that I didn’t want to take a peno when I said I will…

So Grealish was definitely up for taking a penalty. 

[Jim Smith 2,319]

14 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I genuinely think that team, played the right way, could expect to get to the semi finals in Qatar, even without a fortuitous draw. France will be good having had a kick up the backside at this tournament and Brazil and Argentina will throw their hat into the favourites ring, but other than those three that team wouldn't have to fear anyone.

I do think Pope or Henderson are potentially better keepers than Pickford but Southgate loves him and in fairness he's never really let him down in an England shirt, he seems to save his somewhat too frequent howlers for when he is in an Everton shirt.

I like that side but not Rice and Phillips together. Need to hope Bellingham can be the “all rounder” in there who can pass a bit better. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

I like that side but not Rice and Phillips together. Need to hope Bellingham can be the “all rounder” in there who can pass a bit better. 

Agreed, but I worry next year might be a bit too soon for him. 2024 in Germany could be his tournament. In familiar surroundings and coming of age.