England vs Germany

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

*

Edited June 30, 2021 by Fiery Zac
Double post

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

After a night of reflection and celebration, a few observations:

.

Southgates tactics were effective, well planned and executed. Defend well (one goes to intercept, press while one or both of others mop up behind), play into Kane or long balls for Sterling and Saka to chase. Add some creativity to force more openings and better chances to score.

As Dylan said, it was about one team taking their chances and one that didn’t. Germany had the better chances up to 75mins and then a sitter at 1-0.

Pickford is having a really good tournament after a very solid end to the season with Everton and is rightly England’s no 1.

Maguire is a very decent defender. Reads the game well, intercepts before his speed is tested, good in the air and a very good passer.

Some people, and some of the media are exaggerating the accomplishment. As great as it is to win (and against Germany), this was not a complete performance and a team that plays similarly (Denmark) but with better phases and transitions when in possession, will likely score. Germany had the ball in dangerous areas but the final ball was often poor or the execution lacking. That said, many teams ride their luck to win tournaments, nice it’s our turn for a change.

Will our tactics change coming up against, supposedly weaker opposition, in Ukraine? We may revert to a back 4 but I think the tentative nature is how Southgate wants us to play throughout the tournament. Deeper lying full backs but with Philips slightly more advanced when in possession is what I assume we will be back to seeing.

I want entertainment from my country football more than I thought, and the majority of the game wasn’t entertaining. It’s a strange realisation and was during the game that I wasn’t particularly nervous and not as engrossed as every other tournament I’ve watched England in. I wanted us to win but it wasn’t edge of my seat, cheering the team on kind of support. I’m also always on the positive side of things (as my posts about NCFC will show) but I was finding myself all to ready to critisise and getting increasingly frustrated at the lack of intricate, clever football that so many of the English players show for their club.

Do I want England to win the tournament this way? No because I think we can be like Italy, win while playing attractively. We have better players, we can be Italy but better. It feels wrong to say that as I’m not old enough to remember ‘66 and it would be great to see us win anything. But I want the pride of being the best in the tournament, of doing what we can to the best of our ability. Some of the best attacking English talent of a generation is in the squad and yet we aren’t using it. Just seems a shame.

[Yellow Fever 3,783]

Really pleased with the result - a 'monkey' off our backs.

Cant help but think Kane now over-hyped. Yes he scored (right place right time) but what else ?

Discuss.

 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

16 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

This is spot on. 

In past tournaments the biggest criticism of England was their inability to manage games, play intelligently and be solid. England would try and play at 110% in every game and that just doesn't work in tournament football. Capello tried, and failed, miserably on this as he didn't bring the players along with him. Much of the 'England DNA' work has been about increasing England players' in game intelligence and decision making.

Look how France won the World Cup, Deschamps has some of the best players in the World and superstar attackers, but his primary aim was to be solid, control the tempo and be hard to beat.

Portugal in 2016 drew all three of their group games, but once out of the group only conceded one goal on their way to winning the tournament.

The great Spanish side that won everything based it on a rock solid defence - in their Euros wins in 2008 and 2012 they didn't concede one goal in the knockout stages.

A lot of this is the result that organising a defence to be solid is a much quicker and easier task than coaching an attack to be fluid. With limited time for coaching and tactical work international teams tend to focus on getting the defence organised and hoping the attack can click in the games. It is also why set piece work is becoming an increasing focus of international teams as they look to maximise things that are easier to coach. 

This is all true - and I do agree with what you and King have both said in these last two posts, to a point. What you've said will come even more into play now we are basically at sudden death point. 

But I still would've overall liked to have seen us offer a bit more going forwards in the group stages - particularly Scotland and the second half versus Czech republic. Both of those matches were fairly low pressure, without the risk of any imminent failure considering we already had the Croatia win behind us - add to that the fact we were at Wembley. 

Defence may be easier to structure but we have seen plenty of teams in the tournament attack with far more potency than us - with far less quality upfront too it must be said. 

However if it gets us a successful tournament then fantastic, and I don't think anyone can argue with the game last night - in the end the result is all that counts!

Sadly the way we've set up for the first four games may now see us struggle with the games against Ukraine and beyond than Denmark / Czech as we will be going in as massive favourites. Certainly isn't going to be pleasant watching!

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

Also loved Southgates post match interview, particularly the ‘96 comment. Easy to see why the squad apparently have such high regard and respect for him.

[king canary 7,606]

8 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

After a night of reflection and celebration, a few observations:

.

Southgates tactics were effective, well planned and executed. Defend well (one goes to intercept, press while one or both of others mop up behind), play into Kane or long balls for Sterling and Saka to chase. Add some creativity to force more openings and better chances to score.

As Dylan said, it was about one team taking their chances and one that didn’t. Germany had the better chances up to 75mins and then a sitter at 1-0.

Pickford is having a really good tournament after a very solid end to the season with Everton and is rightly England’s no 1.

Maguire is a very decent defender. Reads the game well, intercepts before his speed is tested, good in the air and a very good passer.

Some people, and some of the media are exaggerating the accomplishment. As great as it is to win (and against Germany), this was not a complete performance and a team that plays similarly (Denmark) but with better phases and transitions when in possession, will likely score. Germany had the ball in dangerous areas but the final ball was often poor or the execution lacking. That said, many teams ride their luck to win tournaments, nice it’s our turn for a change.

Will our tactics change coming up against, supposedly weaker opposition, in Ukraine? We may revert to a back 4 but I think the tentative nature is how Southgate wants us to play throughout the tournament. Deeper lying full backs but with Philips slightly more advanced when in possession is what I assume we will be back to seeing.

I want entertainment from my country football more than I thought, and the majority of the game wasn’t entertaining. It’s a strange realisation and was during the game that I wasn’t particularly nervous and not as engrossed as every other tournament I’ve watched England in. I wanted us to win but it wasn’t edge of my seat, cheering the team on kind of support. I’m also always on the positive side of things (as my posts about NCFC will show) but I was finding myself all to ready to critisise and getting increasingly frustrated at the lack of intricate, clever football that so many of the English players show for their club.

Do I want England to win the tournament this way? No because I think we can be like Italy, win while playing attractively. We have better players, we can be Italy but better. It feels wrong to say that as I’m not old enough to remember ‘66 and it would be great to see us win anything. But I want the pride of being the best in the tournament, of doing what we can to the best of our ability. Some of the best attacking English talent of a generation is in the squad and yet we aren’t using it. Just seems a shame.

I can understand all that but the main takeaway I get from this is it isn't England/Southgate who are 'wrong' - it is the expectations you have for them.

We've got some excellent players but as a nation we've got to one semi final in the last 20 years and a historic reputation for believing our own hype and failing the second we get up against a decent team. To expect us to go into a tournament and dominate games while playing swashbuckling football at all times is just unrealistic. 

I've also got to have a little chuckle at the idea of Italy being the blueprint, a team who's success is historically based on defensive solidity and generally being absolute bastards to play against, not exciting attacking football. 

[BroadstairsR 2,164]

9 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Really pleased with the result - a 'monkey' off our backs.

Cant help but think Kane now over-hyped. Yes he scored (right place right time) but what else ?

Discuss.

 

Suggets that on a Spurs forum and a lynching party would be out.

Thirty five goals in fifty-eight appearances for England  speaks for it's self.

Golden Boot at last World Cup (admittedly aided by a hat-trick against Panama.)

He has been under par and seems slowed but hadn't he been carrying an injury leading upto this competition .... or was there even some doubt about his involvement at all?

Similar to Pukki in that respect, if that's the case.

[king canary 7,606]

4 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

This is all true - and I do agree with what you and King have both said in these last two posts, to a point. What you've said will come even more into play now we are basically at sudden death point. 

But I still would've overall liked to have seen us offer a bit more going forwards in the group stages - particularly Scotland and the second half versus Czech republic. Both of those matches were fairly low pressure, without the risk of any imminent failure considering we already had the Croatia win behind us - add to that the fact we were at Wembley. 

Defence may be easier to structure but we have seen plenty of teams in the tournament attack with far more potency than us - with far less quality upfront too it must be said. 

However if it gets us a successful tournament then fantastic, and I don't think anyone can argue with the game last night - in the end the result is all that counts!

Sadly the way we've set up for the first four games may now see us struggle with the games against Ukraine and beyond than Denmark / Czech as we will be going in as massive favourites. Certainly isn't going to be pleasant watching!

I can't agree the Scotland game was low pressure- if we'd have gone for it and been done on the counter attack the fans and media would have absolutely ripped this team to shreds. I do agree we should have been more proactive about using the attacking talent we had on the bench in that game but I can also understand Southgate thinking that a draw wasn't the worst result all things considered.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

13 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

After a night of reflection and celebration, a few observations:

.

Southgates tactics were effective, well planned and executed. Defend well (one goes to intercept, press while one or both of others mop up behind), play into Kane or long balls for Sterling and Saka to chase. Add some creativity to force more openings and better chances to score.

As Dylan said, it was about one team taking their chances and one that didn’t. Germany had the better chances up to 75mins and then a sitter at 1-0.

Pickford is having a really good tournament after a very solid end to the season with Everton and is rightly England’s no 1.

Maguire is a very decent defender. Reads the game well, intercepts before his speed is tested, good in the air and a very good passer.

Some people, and some of the media are exaggerating the accomplishment. As great as it is to win (and against Germany), this was not a complete performance and a team that plays similarly (Denmark) but with better phases and transitions when in possession, will likely score. Germany had the ball in dangerous areas but the final ball was often poor or the execution lacking. That said, many teams ride their luck to win tournaments, nice it’s our turn for a change.

Will our tactics change coming up against, supposedly weaker opposition, in Ukraine? We may revert to a back 4 but I think the tentative nature is how Southgate wants us to play throughout the tournament. Deeper lying full backs but with Philips slightly more advanced when in possession is what I assume we will be back to seeing.

I want entertainment from my country football more than I thought, and the majority of the game wasn’t entertaining. It’s a strange realisation and was during the game that I wasn’t particularly nervous and not as engrossed as every other tournament I’ve watched England in. I wanted us to win but it wasn’t edge of my seat, cheering the team on kind of support. I’m also always on the positive side of things (as my posts about NCFC will show) but I was finding myself all to ready to critisise and getting increasingly frustrated at the lack of intricate, clever football that so many of the English players show for their club.

Do I want England to win the tournament this way? No because I think we can be like Italy, win while playing attractively. We have better players, we can be Italy but better. It feels wrong to say that as I’m not old enough to remember ‘66 and it would be great to see us win anything. But I want the pride of being the best in the tournament, of doing what we can to the best of our ability. Some of the best attacking English talent of a generation is in the squad and yet we aren’t using it. Just seems a shame.

Agree with pretty much all of this. 

Again I reiterate though that I believe it is the way we approached the group stages which now has me struggling to enjoy our play style and subsequently a bit less invested in the team. The individual game from last night was a great win and I don't think anyone can argue with the use of those tactics against Germany to knock them out. 

Its the first time we've beat Germany at a major tournament since '66, this will be remembered as a glorious victory because it finished 2-0. The fact both teams struggled to put any stamp on the game for 70 odd minutes will not be remembered, nor the negative style of play.

But I'm just not feeling quite the same wave of buzz as I was in 2018, yet we've been playing at Wembley with 2 huge games against Scotland and Germany which is the first time in 25 and 11 years respectively in a major tournament - it should be extra special. 

Perhaps it is because of COVID and the general vibe of the tournament not really being set in any one place? Perhaps it is a reflection of the expectations being ramped up, we went in 2018 basically expecting to be disappointment - and weren't. Now we as fans are expecting this side to do well, maybe we are expecting too much?

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

7 minutes ago, king canary said:

I can't agree the Scotland game was low pressure- if we'd have gone for it and been done on the counter attack the fans and media would have absolutely ripped this team to shreds. I do agree we should have been more proactive about using the attacking talent we had on the bench in that game but I can also understand Southgate thinking that a draw wasn't the worst result all things considered.

I think you can argue both ways. Scotland had nothing to lose as an individual game as massive underdogs, but everything to lose in terms of their tournament campaign. They needed a result far more than we did, and we kept things alive for them. 

Whichever way you cut it, we played negatively at home against Scotland in a game we were massive favourites for. 

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

8 minutes ago, king canary said:

I can understand all that but the main takeaway I get from this is it isn't England/Southgate who are 'wrong' - it is the expectations you have for them.

We've got some excellent players but as a nation we've got to one semi final in the last 20 years and a historic reputation for believing our own hype and failing the second we get up against a decent team. To expect us to go into a tournament and dominate games while playing swashbuckling football at all times is just unrealistic. 

I've also got to have a little chuckle at the idea of Italy being the blueprint, a team who's success is historically based on defensive solidity and generally being absolute bastards to play against, not exciting attacking football. 

Agree with the first paragraph.

I don’t expect us to play swashbuckling dominating football at all times, that really would be unrealistic. I just feel there’s more gears we could easily get to but are choosing not to. 3rd will get you there but it’s nowhere near as fun as 6th. I really shouldn’t moan as we’ve got the job done. The group games were a means to an end. But we could’ve had just a little bit of fun along the way couldn’t we?

The Italy I’m referring to is obviously this years which I know is very different to the team we’re used to. I suppose we’re being different in our approach. The focus is grinding out the results to progress.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

Another question I have is is Southgate capable of changing a game tactically when plan A isn’t working?

Vs Scotland would suggest not but it was a point that pretty much guaranteed our progression in the tournament so difficult to know.

Lots of potential interesting scenarios coming up on Saturday 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

37 minutes ago, king canary said:

Just to add to this- I don't see the style we're playing in this tournament to have much link to how Hughton set up. That Norwich team was basically set up to not concede and hope for the best. The fullbacks rarely crossed the halfway line, the central midfield pairing never got up to support the striker and if we ever conceded a goal we had no plan whatsoever for how to change it.

While the formation looked negative last night, Southgate did give his players freedom. Maguire charged out of central defence with the ball on multiple occasions, Shaw overlapped with regularity, Phillips pushed higher up the pitch and Sterling and Saka had freedom roam. 

The most apt Norwich comparison I can make for this team, is that when it doesn't work (like v Scotland) it feels very much like first season Farkeball- slow, obsessed with possession for the sake of it and no cutting edge. When it does work though, it doesn't look like Farkeball at all. 

The big question mark for this team remains 'what happens if we go behind?' Is Southgate capable of switching the team up to chase a goal? I don't know but I think he and the players deserve a lot of credit for so far not getting into a situation where we find out. This German team had 6 goals in 3 games before this but their only good chance came from England error. Crotia grabbed 7 goals in the 3 matches not v England, barely a sniff vs us. 

Fair points King. 

Hughton's tactics were worse for Norwich, definitely, but worth noting that we went in to every game as massive underdogs. England are playing with a bit more freedom than Hughton's Norwich, yes, but we are also generally going into our games as favourites. A luxury I don't think a premier league Norwich team ever has. And the extra freedom we see for England does not match our general advantage in quality, so I'd say its pretty relative.

However one thing that - most importantly - separates it from the Hughton comparison completely is that its proving successful so far, and if playing this way in the group stages was required to beat Germany with a similar style then its clearly a good trade off. 

And agree on those closing points, that's probably the biggest positive I could say about us- of all the games I've seen we've probably looked overall like the most difficult side to beat, we've made strong teams look like poor sides, obviously in doing so it makes the game pretty turgid to watch - but we still manage to come out on top.

I doubt up to last night that any of our performances / results have put the fear into the other teams at all, but now we've picked apart Germany in the same way the Czech's and the Croatian's fell - it must seem a bit ominous for the other sides. The English football machine is coming...

Edited June 30, 2021 by Hank shoots Skyler

[BroadstairsR 2,164]

"Whichever way you cut it, we played negatively at home against Scotland in a game we were massive favourites for."

Local derby syndrome. Underdogs play out of their skin, play brought down to their level as a result.

Similar to Norwich/Ipswich games of late. I re-ran a lot of that famous game at Carrow Road where we were apparently "outplayed" whilst winning 3-0.

In fact Ipswich played well, probably their best performance of the season by a distance. Chalobah was outstanding. The rest were on fire.

Class won in the end, but in truth, the binners put up a decent show (despite Lambert's histrionics.)

[The Real Buh 3,432]

Scotland epitomises small club mentality as a football club and a “nation”

it’s not a surprise Scotland Rovers played out of their skins to put a 0-0 draw in their trophy cabinet 

nobody will remember them

[lake district canary 4,531]

1 hour ago, Ken Hairy said:

Is it worth it??? We beat the Germans 2-0 of course its sodding worth it

Unless it's Norwich, any other football has reached the stage for me that it has to entertain me or I'm not interested.  I don't usually watch these tournaments in any great detail, but I have this one and it's the teams that have the best attitude that I like watching and that I want to do well. 

[sonyc 5,517]

4 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Fair points King. 

Hughton's tactics were worse for Norwich, definitely, but worth noting that we went in to every game as massive underdogs. England are playing with a bit more freedom than Hughton's Norwich, yes, but we are also generally going into our games as favourites. A luxury I don't think a premier league Norwich team ever has. And the extra freedom we see for England does not match our general advantage in quality, so I'd say its pretty relative.

However one thing that - most importantly - separates it from the Hughton comparison completely is that its proving successful so far, and if playing this way in the group stages was required to beat Germany with a similar style then its clearly a good trade off. 

And agree on those closing points, that's probably the biggest positive I could say about us- of all the games I've seen we've probably looked overall like the most difficult side to beat, we've made strong teams look like poor sides, obviously in doing so it makes the game pretty turgid to watch - but we still manage to come out on top.

I doubt up to last night that any of our performances / results have put the fear into the other teams at all, but now we've picked apart Germany in the same way the Czech's and the Croatian's fell - it must seem a bit ominous for the other sides. The English football machine is coming...

Perhaps you win tournaments though with a very strong defence? This team has yet to concede a goal. When it has come to the opposition having a great chance, Pickford has been fantastic.

Italy are another team conceding very few buy they have looked the part in attack. 

I think England have a genuine chance of getting to the final but will need just that slice of luck. For many tournaments we have not had much of that. Yesterday was Muller's miss. Fine margins - as Daniel or Stuart Webber will say.

[BroadstairsR 2,164]

The reason that the England job has often in the past been considered the "worst game in football" seems to be adequately summed up by the criticism of Southgate these days.

Turnip Taylor, Keegan was forced to give up, The Brolly Man, Woy and the general reaction to Big Sam's appointment ...... and all Englishmen, nb.

We never seemed to give our two foreign managers such a hard time. Sven took the p-iss, whilst shagging weather girls. Capello seemed not to care (did he even bother to learn English?) Were they that much better? 

Never over the Moon with Southgate I cannot be critical of him in this tournament.

If we go on to win it there will be a lot of egg on a lot of faces and attitudes might change.

[Yellow Fever 3,783]

35 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Suggest that on a Spurs forum and a lynching party would be out.

Thirty five goals in fifty-eight appearances for England  speaks for it's self.

Golden Boot at last World Cup (admittedly aided by a hat-trick against Panama.)

He has been under par and seems slowed but hadn't he been carrying an injury leading upto this competition .... or was there even some doubt about his involvement at all?

Similar to Pukki in that respect, if that's the case.

Yes Pukki may be similar at present - but nevertheless Kane does seems slow and laboured.

Perhaps I'm just noting the king's new clothes - pointing out what others dare to mention. If it wasn't for his past how would you judge his performance to date? Forgettable.

However - you can still argue both are over-hyped. Nobody has a starting place by right in any team.  

[king canary 7,606]

21 minutes ago, Fiery Zac said:

Agree with the first paragraph.

I don’t expect us to play swashbuckling dominating football at all times, that really would be unrealistic. I just feel there’s more gears we could easily get to but are choosing not to. 3rd will get you there but it’s nowhere near as fun as 6th. I really shouldn’t moan as we’ve got the job done. The group games were a means to an end. But we could’ve had just a little bit of fun along the way couldn’t we?

The Italy I’m referring to is obviously this years which I know is very different to the team we’re used to. I suppose we’re being different in our approach. The focus is grinding out the results to progress.

We could have had more fun in the group stages, no doubt.

However I found yesterday to be very good fun! More so than most England matches I remember. 

[king canary 7,606]

4 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

The reason that the England job has often in the past been considered the "worst game in football" seems to be adequately summed up by the criticism of Southgate these days.

Turnip Taylor, Keegan was forced to give up, The Brolly Man, Woy and the general reaction to Big Sam's appointment ...... and all Englishmen, nb.

We never seemed to give our two foreign managers such a hard time. Sven took the p-iss, whilst shagging weather girls. Capello seemed not to care (did he even bother to learn English?) Were they that much better? 

Never over the Moon with Southgate I cannot be critical of him in this tournament.

If we go on to win it there will be a lot of egg on a lot of faces and attitudes might change.

Disagree, Capello and Sven got absolutely shredded by our press and fans. Sven especially got lots of unfair abuse. I think people eventually realised how good a job he'd done in general after he left and we struggled to even make it out of the group stages.

[BroadstairsR 2,164]

2 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Yes Pukki may be similar at present - but nevertheless Kane does seems slow and laboured.

Perhaps I'm just noting the king's new clothes - pointing out what others dare to mention. If it wasn't for his past how would you judge his performance to date? Forgettable.

However - you can still argue both are over-hyped. Nobody has a starting place by right in any team.  

Fair enough, but you failed to mention the injury factor .... for both players?

[BroadstairsR 2,164]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

Disagree, Capello and Sven got absolutely shredded by our press and fans. Sven especially got lots of unfair abuse. I think people eventually realised how good a job he'd done in general after he left and we struggled to even make it out of the group stages.

It was the personal stuff I was referring to.

Sven was a bit teflon regards it, whilst Capello has the highest win rate of any England manager. 

[sonyc 5,517]

3 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

The reason that the England job has often in the past been considered the "worst game in football" seems to be adequately summed up by the criticism of Southgate these days.

Turnip Taylor, Keegan was forced to give up, The Brolly Man, Woy and the general reaction to Big Sam's appointment ...... and all Englishmen, nb.

We never seemed to give our two foreign managers such a hard time. Sven took the p-iss, whilst shagging weather girls. Capello seemed not to care (did he even bother to learn English?) Were they that much better? 

Never over the Moon with Southgate I cannot be critical of him in this tournament.

If we go on to win it there will be a lot of egg on a lot of faces and attitudes might change.

Whilst I am able to post at this minute (what is happening to this forum?!) I will respond now to your post. I agree with most of that. The job has become such a poisoned chalice. Yet Southgate, (despite a the criticism of his selections etc) has brought a seriousness, thoughtfulness to it whilst accelerating young players in more numbers and has built decent tournament performances (semi final last time).

He has had to deal with social media more than any other. He has done these things with credibility. So whilst I'm not his greatest fan, his results are impressive. I believe he has recovered a lot of good reputation as the England 'boss' where many others failed or only partially succeeded. And we've needed some lightness in our lives after the past 18 months. He has delivered that so far.

 

[hogesar 9,671]

25 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Unless it's Norwich, any other football has reached the stage for me that it has to entertain me or I'm not interested.  I don't usually watch these tournaments in any great detail, but I have this one and it's the teams that have the best attitude that I like watching and that I want to do well. 

Best attitude? I don't think you'll see a better 'attitude' in the tournament than the commitment from the England players yesterday. They all put in a shift, they all got involved with the fans, they all celebrated and clearly demonstrated how much it matters to them.

I'd suggest not watching England - it's not for you. The rest of us are f*cking loving it.

[hogesar 9,671]

9 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Whilst I am able to post at this minute (what is happening to this forum?!) I will respond now to your post. I agree with most of that. The job has become such a poisoned chalice. Yet Southgate, (despite a the criticism of his selections etc) has brought a seriousness, thoughtfulness to it whilst accelerating young players in more numbers and has built decent tournament performances (semi final last time).

He has had to deal with social media more than any other. He has done these things with credibility. So whilst I'm not his greatest fan, his results are impressive. I believe he has recovered a lot of good reputation as the England 'boss' where many others failed or only partially succeeded. And we've needed some lightness in our lives after the past 18 months. He has delivered that so far.

 

People will argue 'easier draws' in Southgates favour etc - but the reality is since he's come in he's revitalised the national team, integrated a huge amount of younger players - more so than any other England manager in my lifetime - managed to get the whole country (besides a few unusual individuals, see this forum for examples) behind the team during the last World Cup which was a big task - even managing to get majority of media on side which is massive.

No team play's gung-ho football in a european or international tournament and wins it anymore - managers are too clever, tactics are too advanced and it's shown by the amount of top nations already out.

I don't think Southgate is a fantastic manager in 'general' terms, but I do think he's a perfect fit for England.

[hogesar 9,671]

[FatCanary 249]

Imagine moaning about an international team being poor to watch. No wonder some of you are never satisfied with Norwich, where we are great to watch but profligate at the top level, fans beg for more pragmatism.

England dispatch Germany with a brilliant plan and a well structured and thought through 3-4-3 that other than Sterling's momentary lapse worked superbly.

England are not good to watch, but tell me who is in this tournament?

You can maybe plump for the Netherlands at a push, but they're out. Wales were good fun for a bit. Out. Ooh those Germans knock it about well. Out. I wish we had Mbappe's frightening pa- Out.

Actually I suppose it isn't that surprising that as we love Farkeball we are diametrically opposed to Southgate. England haven't been great at any point in this tournament, but they are getting it right at the highest level and winning. We'd all like that come August, I'm sure.

[Mello Yello 2,293]

It may have been boring to some.....but those last 15 minutes certainly made up for it.....What a finale.....

Roll on Saturday.....and for Germany's soon to retire "Bogie Gobblin' nut scratchin' finger sniffin' and with questionable hygiene standards" Joachim Low.....Roll on Deodorant..... 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

13 minutes ago, FatCanary said:

Imagine moaning about an international team being poor to watch. No wonder some of you are never satisfied with Norwich, where we are great to watch but profligate at the top level, fans beg for more pragmatism.

I do think most posters on here who are being cast as the moaners (myself included) have been fairly reasonable. Its not the extreme you paint it as. Its obviously a balance between attacking and defending, and I don't think anyone on here is advocating for us to be playing gung-ho kamazee you-score-3-we-score-4 type tactics. 

I'm very happy with the result last night and ultimately pleased with the performance too, but maintain I am a bit disappointed with how we approached the group games overall when we had plenty of opportunity to freely take some risks going forwards without fear.

So yes of course we can be pragmatic, I don't think anyone is upset about that, I just don't think it needs to be taken to the extreme of refusing to attack the Czech Republic for 45 minutes because we are already 1-0 up. Similarly it doesn't need to mean giving Scotland far more credit than they deserve and effectively handing them the initiative and making them look much better than they are.

But against Germany last night to get a 2-0 win and knock them out of a major tournament for the first time since '66? Then bloody great!