Hartlepool set to become tory, having been Labour since 1974

[ricardo 7,401]

11 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

Frankly the Corbyn left do their very best it seems to be unelectable and hence they are and should remain just a pressure group and no more.

 

Better to be pure than tainted by compromise.😀

A sure fire way to remain a party of protest and avoid the awkward decisions of government.

[Yellow Fever 3,838]

5 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Momentum were the culprits not Corbyn. He needed their backing to beat Yvette Cooper. And he paid for it for the rest of his duration. He was pushed into areas which erupted with the stupid Brexit policy.

Where the Tory party succeeds is they are not bound by their membership or Conference decisions. Corbyn was scared of a backlash. That is why Kinnock eventually folded. He brought the Party and Nation into respecting him for standing up to Militant. But then it went to his head and his appearance at the next conference was like he was Austin Powers.

Corbyn should have moved away from Momentum and its middle class apologists.

I wouldn't know Corbyn well enough - but to most people Corbyn was Momentum!

The other thing you need to note is that most people these days are in fact 'middle class' - or aspire to be so. That's the Tory reality. Stop fighting the battles of the 1970s.

[Van wink 2,994]

1 minute ago, Yellow Fever said:

I wouldn't know Corbyn well enough - but to most people Corbyn was Momentum!

The other thing you need to note is that most people these days are in fact 'middle class' - or aspire to be so. That's the Tory reality. Stop fighting the battles of the 1970s.

A fresh breeze of reality seems to be sweeping through.

[Yellow Fever 3,838]

1 minute ago, ricardo said:

Better to be pure than tainted by compromise.😀

A sure fire way to remain a party of protest and avoid the awkward decisions of government.

Exactly - the real world is messy - you have to choose between evils. That is government and sometimes you may in all honesty get it   wrong. That is my view on Blair in Iraq. He got it right doing much the same in Serbia in Sierra Leone. 

[ricardo 7,401]

Politics is of necessity a dirty business and few come out of it completely clean. I think most go into it with good intentions and then find they have to self justify the occasions that they have to trim and compromise their principles just to get things done. I think Blair is a good example of this.

If you want saints and angels you are better off with religion and even then only sometimes.

 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Indeed - history repeats itself - For Corbyn read Foot - both knee jerk reactionaries from a defeat. Labours electoral success was then rebuilt back to the centre left with Kinnock, the sad late Smith to Blair. SKS is doing the same - rebuilding. Doubling down on Corbyn will get them nowhere fast. They need to look credible, a government in waiting that even some centre right Tories would vote for given the sleaze and stench emanating from Johnson.   

Everything you say is correct. It will take a centre-left figure similar to Blair before Labour gets elected to government. Yet the irony is Labour's most successful Prime Minister is today something of a hate-figure within his own party. I'd go so far as to say he is hated more by his own side than by his opponents. So that is the likely outcome of another Blair-like figure leading the Labour party and its a conflict they need to resolve if they want long-term success.

KG wants the Labour leadership to move further left and not towards the centre. Fair enoughm but you have to show why this of benefit to the electorate. But the left has got itself tangled up in this wokery nonsense and is not longer focussed on improving lives of ordinary working people. Until it does it is likely to become more and more a marginalised irrelevance.

[Van wink 2,994]

11 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Politics is of necessity a dirty business and few come out of it completely clean. I think most go into it with good intentions and then find they have to self justify the occasions that they have to trim and compromise their principles just to get things done. I think Blair is a good example of this.

If you want saints and angels you are better off with religion and even then only sometimes.

 

If you want saints and angels best steer clear of religion 😉

[king canary 7,679]

36 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I wouldn't know Corbyn well enough - but to most people Corbyn was Momentum!

The other thing you need to note is that most people these days are in fact 'middle class' - or aspire to be so. That's the Tory reality. Stop fighting the battles of the 1970s.

And also Corbyn absolutely was a large part of the problem, particularly when it came to questions of foreign policy. He was (not incorrectly) associated with a form of foreign policy that basically went 'the west = bad so everyone not the west = good.' 

The 'paling around with terrorists' line stuck because, fundamentally, it had some truth to it. 

[sonyc 5,541]

4 hours ago, Duncan Edwards said:

How hard the sleaze stuff hits remains to be seen

There is something biting through regarding voters views on Johnson it appears...

 

[Yellow Fever 3,838]

8 minutes ago, king canary said:

And also Corbyn absolutely was a large part of the problem, particularly when it came to questions of foreign policy. He was (not incorrectly) associated with a form of foreign policy that basically went 'the west = bad so everyone not the west = good.' 

The 'paling around with terrorists' line stuck because, fundamentally, it had some truth to it. 

Yes - of course you have to find ways to talk to your enemies  - the Good Friday agreement is proof of that. Corbyn was unfairly tagged but as you say his byline seemed be be as default everything 'West' is bad.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

But the point is Labour is a Party and if people don't like their leader or policies then don't vote for them. As I said I don't want us moving to the centre. Corbyn's policies suited me fine. Just because he looked like a bag of siht tied up in the middle didn't make them less attractive.

So now as a Member, and one who wants the Party to be elected, I am in a right pickle. Yes, SKS may be preferable to Johnson, but his policies are not what I believe in. But I cannot bring myself vote for any other party or abstain.

[Yellow Fever 3,838]

14 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

But the point is Labour is a Party and if people don't like their leader or policies then don't vote for them. As I said I don't want us moving to the centre. Corbyn's policies suited me fine. Just because he looked like a bag of siht tied up in the middle didn't make them less attractive.

So now as a Member, and one who wants the Party to be elected, I am in a right pickle. Yes, SKS may be preferable to Johnson, but his policies are not what I believe in. But I cannot bring myself vote for any other party or abstain.

Unfortunately KG the problem we have is that the right of nearly all complexions is pragmatic and votes for the only once serious 'right ' party - the Torres or Bluekip as they now are.

The 'Left' is far more fragmented and in our FPTP system although it is probably overall the larger 1/2 it generally loses. Green. Libdems and Labour. Corbyn and the Greens were too idealist for me - and as Ricardo notes all governments have in reality to be pragmatic.

More generally I actually think the country is far more divided these days along 'age' lines - the Tories in reality facing extinction as their very large but elderly base fades away. Ditto for Brexit. The younger more economically active are generally poorer (house prices, rents, pensions etc.) and hence far more fertile ground for more redistributive (aka left) polices. So stop thinking 'working class left/right' and start thinking age divides.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Yellow Fever

[king canary 7,679]

3 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Unfortunately KG the problem we have is that the right of nearly all complexions is pragmatic and votes for the only once serious 'right ' party - the Torres or Bluekip as they now are.

The 'Left' is far more fragmented and in our FPTP system although it is probably overall the larger 1/2 it generally loses. Green. Libdems and Labour. Corbyn and the Greens were too idealist for me - and as Ricardo notes all governments have in reality to be pragmatic.

More generally I actually think the country is far more divided these days along 'age' lines - the Tories in reality facing extinction as their very large but elderly base fades away. Ditto for Brexit. The younger more economically active are generally poorer (house prices, rents, pensions etc.) and hence far more fertile ground for more redistributive (aka left) polices. So stop thinking 'working class left/right' and start thinking age divides.

Yes, pragmatism is often in short supply on this side of the fence unfortunately. It may be that because I'm not right wing I don't see this sort of thing from their side but from my perspective the Tories don't often go in for purity tests in the way Labour supporters do. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

3 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Unfortunately KG the problem we have is that the right of nearly all complexions is pragmatic and votes for the only once serious 'right ' party - the Torres or Bluekip as they now are.

The 'Left' is far more fragmented and in our FPTP system although it is probably overall the larger 1/2 it generally loses. Green. Libdems and Labour. Corbyn and the Greens were too idealist for me - and as Ricardo notes all governments have in reality to be pragmatic.

More generally I actually think the country is far more divided these days along 'age' lines - the Tories in reality facing extinction as their very large but elderly base fades away. Ditto for Brexit. The younger more economically active are generally poorer (house prices, rents, pensions etc.) and hence far more fertile ground for more redistributive (aka left) polices. So stop thinking 'working class left/right' and start thinking age divides.

It isn't so much a matter of us and them. Its the attitude that the thems are still doing all they can to prevent any usses becoming thems with different ideas and values.

For example, there is more chat about fans having control over their football team than returning certain industries to public ownership.

Bizarre

[ricardo 7,401]

3 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

More generally I actually think the country is far more divided these days along 'age' lines - the Tories in reality facing extinction as their very large but elderly base fades away. Ditto for Brexit. The younger more economically active are generally poorer (house prices, rents, pensions etc.) and hence far more fertile ground for more redistributive (aka left) polices. So stop thinking 'working class left/right' and start thinking age divides.

A mistake the left have been making for more than fifty years. Heaven forbid that people's ideas change with the benefit of lifes experiences. The young are open to change and see the world in black and white and feel there is little to lose by giving it a go. In reality there are many shades of grey and as people mature they marry, have children, take on mortgages etc etc and become more risk averse.

There will always be change of course but it is far more likely that the Tory government will go on too long and just run down in its own time much like the period from 1979 - 1997. Oppositions don't win power, governments lose it.

[BroadstairsR 2,206]

As a floating voter for the last two decades or so this either makes me hard to please or easy to please. You can takes your pick.

For a floating voter in Hartlepool tomorrow there's no easy decision it would seem. But I can hardly explain why that should be so in local terms as I've never been there.

Are there any pertinent issues left? Brexit is over, the pandemic is over (apparently) and its not in the habit of 'floaters' to dwell in the past.

Some prejudices are ingrained, of course. We dislike the Bullingdon boys as much as we do the Islington luvvies. We vere towards republicanism but respect the work-load of the royals, if not the lifestyle of the pyramid of the chinless that they support . We detest the Lords  but accept the need for a second house, if only because of the behaviour of the first. We accept capitalism and the entrepreneurialism it fosters, but we deplore the privatisation of vital services in our country.

It seems to be easier to be a floater nowadays as traditional lines are so competely blurred.

So we look to that which is in currently front of us. Bumbling Boris, surpassed only in incompetence by Hancock the Hopeless, and the rest of his 'boys in blue' or Keir (Hardie-less) Starmer who comes over as a well-educated pamphlet presiding over a political party which seems to have morphed more into a protest group than a credible political opposition. 

Lib Dems? Joe Swinton = say no more, and if their only alternative to that is deadly Davey then that lot continue to be a no-no in electorate terms ....  with appalling consistency.

Why not the Greens then?  Greta's a lovely girl, but they'll need to first get shot of Loopy Lucas and her band of Brighton luvvies who, even though more luvvlier than the Islington luvvies seem to have become very hostile to outsiders these days to the extent that one could be forgiven for assuming that  East Sussex independence is now more of a liklihood than that for the Scots.

Are the Monster Raving Loonies standing? Their founder, Lord Sutch, with his policy of concreting over the entire Channel Tunnel, at least foresaw the dangers that could be wreaked by  a pandemic after all.

If I were a voter in Hartlepool I would remain floating 'til it's over. Apparently the air above the town is now healthier since Thatcher destroyed it's industries and devastated  the whole town so much that they  all now seem to be Conservative voters.

Perhaps there's another monkey to hang instead. I notice Michael Gove has kept his distance.

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by BroadstairsR

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

I'm interested in what happens here in Norfolk. I shall not vote for more wasting of money on Tory projects such as the Western link. We had the shady deals with environmental criminals that wanted to build a rubbish burner, costing 34+ million in compensating these crooks. Then we had the NDR overspent of 60 + million. There aqre only two parties opposing this destructive link and that is Labour and the Green Party.

As for the harassing and setting up of Corbyn, here is a little ditty from Johnathan Cook.

https://www.jonathan-cook.net/2021-04-16/labour-antisemitism-weaponised-corbyn/

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

Let's talk about white van man as this is the stereotypical voter that Labour needs. Once WVM was an employee, had 2 weeks holiday in Spain and automatically voted Labour

Today he still drives a van but is self employed, works variable hours contracts, has a send part time job. He has financed a small shop for his wife to open up a nail salon.

He probably has a person of colour as a brother in law. 

Traditional Labour supporters, working class roots, they represent à changing profile of new Britons. They are proud, self sufficient people. Tell them that they are thick and don't know why they voted for Brexit and see what happens. You won't like it 

Labour simply does not understand working people, they probably haven't a clue how the country has changed. How can they from their comfortable university positions? The only working class person they meet is the Amazon driver that brings them stuff, and he is probably Polish. 

The Labour party are so out of touch with the zeitgeist they should be in a museum. They'd be cancelled by the woke crowd if they were. 

 

[ricardo 7,401]

51 minutes ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

I'm interested in what happens here in Norfolk. I shall not vote for more wasting of money on Tory projects such as the Western link. We had the shady deals with environmental criminals that wanted to build a rubbish burner, costing 34+ million in compensating these crooks. Then we had the NDR overspent of 60 + million. There aqre only two parties opposing this destructive link and that is Labour and the Green Party.

As for the harassing and setting up of Corbyn, here is a little ditty from Johnathan Cook.

https://www.jonathan-cook.net/2021-04-16/labour-antisemitism-weaponised-corbyn/

Yes lets stop the western link. A great idea, who needs a northern bypass that doesnt link up to the A47, the  main route to the midlands and the north. Much more fun trying to nip through Ringland Lane or Weston Longville.🤣

[king canary 7,679]

38 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Let's talk about white van man as this is the stereotypical voter that Labour needs. Once WVM was an employee, had 2 weeks holiday in Spain and automatically voted Labour

Today he still drives a van but is self employed, works variable hours contracts, has a send part time job. He has financed a small shop for his wife to open up a nail salon.

He probably has a person of colour as a brother in law. 

Traditional Labour supporters, working class roots, they represent à changing profile of new Britons. They are proud, self sufficient people. Tell them that they are thick and don't know why they voted for Brexit and see what happens. You won't like it 

Labour simply does not understand working people, they probably haven't a clue how the country has changed. How can they from their comfortable university positions? The only working class person they meet is the Amazon driver that brings them stuff, and he is probably Polish. 

The Labour party are so out of touch with the zeitgeist they should be in a museum. They'd be cancelled by the woke crowd if they were. 

 

I don't think they've got nothing to offer- I think some sensible economic policies aimed at a bit of wealth redistribution and helping to support working people can be a win. I know this sounds like something I made up but when I was out for a walk a couple of months ago I overheard someone saying that 'even though its a Labour think those covid bonds sound good' when that idea was first announced.

There is a reason the Tories are gagging for a culture war- they know that is how they win. Convince ordinary working people that Labour are just a bunch of North London 'elites' are more concerned with making sure people don't misgender non-binary lesbians or giving people prison sentences for using BAME instead of BIPOC and people will flee from them. Labour need to avoid that at all costs.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

Let's talk about white van man as this is the stereotypical voter that Labour needs. Once WVM was an employee, had 2 weeks holiday in Spain and automatically voted Labour

Today he still drives a van but is self employed, works variable hours contracts, has a send part time job. He has financed a small shop for his wife to open up a nail salon.

He probably has a person of colour as a brother in law. 

Traditional Labour supporters, working class roots, they represent à changing profile of new Britons. They are proud, self sufficient people. Tell them that they are thick and don't know why they voted for Brexit and see what happens. You won't like it 

Labour simply does not understand working people, they probably haven't a clue how the country has changed. How can they from their comfortable university positions? The only working class person they meet is the Amazon driver that brings them stuff, and he is probably Polish. 

The Labour party are so out of touch with the zeitgeist they should be in a museum. They'd be cancelled by the woke crowd if they were. 

 

I don't agree the country has changed. We go through these periods when the swing voters change their minds.

As I have said, I believe the UK is essentially centre right. And its up to the Labour Party to convince them our policies are and will continue to be in their interest.

Not just copy the Tories like Blair.

[Yellow Fever 3,838]

46 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Yes lets stop the western link. A great idea, who needs a northern bypass that doesnt link up to the A47, the  main route to the midlands and the north. Much more fun trying to nip through Ringland Lane or Weston Longville.🤣

Yes - did it yesterday!

[TheGunnShow 6,015]

On 04/05/2021 at 10:37, Jools said:

I've always known the town as 'Hartlepool Nil' 🙃

Same as Ipswich. 😉

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

52 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't think they've got nothing to offer- I think some sensible economic policies aimed at a bit of wealth redistribution and helping to support working people can be a win. I know this sounds like something I made up but when I was out for a walk a couple of months ago I overheard someone saying that 'even though its a Labour think those covid bonds sound good' when that idea was first announced.

There is a reason the Tories are gagging for a culture war- they know that is how they win. Convince ordinary working people that Labour are just a bunch of North London 'elites' are more concerned with making sure people don't misgender non-binary lesbians or giving people prison sentences for using BAME instead of BIPOC and people will flee from them. Labour need to avoid that at all costs.

While I agree the culture wars play straight into the Tory's hands, I'm not sure if the Tories have to do much convincing as Labour seems to be quite comfortable with projecting this image of themselves. At least that is what the London liberal sect seems to do and it is at odds with Labour outside the metropolitan bubble 

[Yellow Fever 3,838]

2 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Labour simply does not understand working people, they probably haven't a clue how the country has changed. How can they from their comfortable university positions? The only working class person they meet is the Amazon driver that brings them stuff, and he is probably Polish. 

The Labour party are so out of touch with the zeitgeist they should be in a museum. They'd be cancelled by the woke crowd if they were. 

 

What is it with you and Universities?

I think about 1/2 of our young people have been going to University for many a years - from Blair times. I would think a lot are well into their thirties by now.

Even when I was at University too many years ago there was as well as the left groups strong 'Young Tory' ones as well. A lot are 'elite' Tory MPs or even PM now. Others may well be Basildon man.

I think it's you that may be out of touch with reality on this subject. Being 'educated' doesn't of itself make you left or right but should allow you some tools of critical analysis / questioning of some of the modern claptrap and spin and avoid extremes.

Generally going to University - or in fact mixing with others away from 'home' and institutions exposes one to all sorts of views out of your comfort zone. I recall listening / speaking to both Benn and Heath for instance. Both made valid points / arguments.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

What is it with you and Universities?

I think about 1/2 of our young people have been going to University for many a years - from Blair times. I would think a lot are well into their thirties by now.

Even when I was at University too many years ago there was as well as the left groups strong 'Young Tory' ones as well. A lot are 'elite' Tory MPs or even PM now. Others may well be Basildon man.

I think it's you that may be out of touch with reality on this subject. Being 'educated' doesn't of itself make you left or right but should allow you some tools of critical analysis / questioning of some of the modern claptrap and spin and avoid extremes.

Generally going to University - or in fact mixing with others away from 'home' and institutions exposes one to all sorts of views out of your comfort zone. I recall listening / speaking to both Benn and Heath for instance. Both made valid points / arguments.

When I'm talking about 'comfortable university positions' I am not referring to students but to faculty. Perhaps I should have made that clearer.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

20 hours ago, ricardo said:

Yes lets stop the western link. A great idea, who needs a northern bypass that doesnt link up to the A47, the  main route to the midlands and the north. Much more fun trying to nip through Ringland Lane or Weston Longville.🤣

how about using the existing NDR? what a novel idea. Any HGV's 'ripping' ( how about polluting) through Weston Longville without a drop at a local customer, install a camera at the entrance to the village for all I care, should be fined the moment they are on the A 47.

These overspending waste of money that is mainly supported by hauliers for their own interests to shift goods, has got to stop somewhere.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

This local election, organised by the facilitators and prolongations of the Covid farce under our Conservative party regime, will cost us a little more this time round.

After having been drilled and well tuned into using hand sanitiser for two years, at every step we make, every shop we visit, is not enough for the money wasting Tories, we need an extra person at the polling stations to inquire about our personal heath and remind us to use hand sanitizers before we touch the ballot papers. Fecking useless.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

This local election, organised by the facilitators and prolongations of the Covid farce under our Conservative party regime, will cost us a little more this time round.

After having been drilled and well tuned into using hand sanitiser for two years, at every step we make, every shop we visit, is not enough for the money wasting Tories, we need an extra person at the polling stations to inquire about our personal heath and remind us to use hand sanitizers before we touch the ballot papers. Fecking useless.

At Golf, you are not allowed to touch the flag in case of transmission. However, you are all allowed to put your hand in the hole to take your ball out.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

12 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

At Golf, you are not allowed to touch the flag in case of transmission. However, you are all allowed to put your hand in the hole to take your ball out.

I'm sure they won't refuse your money at the 19th hole.....