George Floyd - Jury has a verdict

[king canary 7,609]

31 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Training is a major part of the problem. I actually feel a bit sorry for US coppers as basically they're not well-trained in conflict resolution - or indeed in all that much. They have a tough job on and in training terms have a knife in a gun fight, so to speak.

In a lot of cases in the US I think it is much more an issue of training than one of racism- the horrific Breonna Taylor case being an example of police basically being asked to do operations that are more at home in the military than domestic law enforcement. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

32 minutes ago, king canary said:

In a lot of cases in the US I think it is much more an issue of training than one of racism- the horrific Breonna Taylor case being an example of police basically being asked to do operations that are more at home in the military than domestic law enforcement. 

I think it's a major part, certainly. In Scandinavia it's a degree - and a considerable amount of their time is spent learning about conflict management.

[king canary 7,609]

14 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I think it's a major part, certainly. In Scandinavia it's a degree - and a considerable amount of their time is spent learning about conflict management.

There was an incredible thread on twitter awhile back from an American ex cop that basically said new cops are trained that basically the entire public is out to kill you and that your number one responsibility is to your fellow officers, not the public. Was a real eye opener, will try and find the link.

[Herman 9,776]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

Why are people getting so worked up about this trial? A horrible man was killed by a horrible copper thousands of miles away, and that society is now better off that neither of them will be part of it anymore as far as I’m concerned. 

I think it was the fact that we watched as a man was slowly murdered by someone that was supposed to "protect and serve" and the fact people were unsure if the murderer would get punished purely because of the skin colour of the victim. I don't really care how scummy they were as it is immaterial.

[Fen Canary 828]

57 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

The fact that the copper actually ended up getting some semblance of justice for murdering someone under the guise of being a police officer is worth celebrating. Especially when the likes of Rittenhouse and Roof, who were indeed doing vile things, were not shot, ostensibly due to their skin colour.

I’m sorry but I don’t believe skin colour had anything to do with it in this case, or with the vast majority of police shootings in the States to be honest. When broken down to number of killings per arrests of each ethnicity over there whites are actually more likely to be killed than blacks, but blacks get arrested at a much higher rate which distorts the statistics in relation to police killings. It’s far too simplistic to simply say that because blacks are killed disproportionately to their percentage of the population therefore all police are racist, which seems to be the general opinion regarding this case. As others have said, it’s much more to do with an armed society and poor training, which is done at a State level rather than a recognised national one

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

35 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I’m sorry but I don’t believe skin colour had anything to do with it in this case, or with the vast majority of police shootings in the States to be honest. When broken down to number of killings per arrests of each ethnicity over there whites are actually more likely to be killed than blacks, but blacks get arrested at a much higher rate which distorts the statistics in relation to police killings. It’s far too simplistic to simply say that because blacks are killed disproportionately to their percentage of the population therefore all police are racist, which seems to be the general opinion regarding this case. As others have said, it’s much more to do with an armed society and poor training, which is done at a State level rather than a recognised national one

It was certainly poor training, which I have also said in this thread, but the crux is this - Floyd was essentially harmless at that moment but was murdered. Yet there are plenty of cases where mass shooters are firing plenty and are genuine hazards to the public at large, yet nope. Cases in point - Rittenhouse and Roof.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,165]

44 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I’m sorry but I don’t believe skin colour had anything to do with it in this case, or with the vast majority of police shootings in the States to be honest. When broken down to number of killings per arrests of each ethnicity over there whites are actually more likely to be killed than blacks, but blacks get arrested at a much higher rate which distorts the statistics in relation to police killings. It’s far too simplistic to simply say that because blacks are killed disproportionately to their percentage of the population therefore all police are racist, which seems to be the general opinion regarding this case. As others have said, it’s much more to do with an armed society and poor training, which is done at a State level rather than a recognised national one

Although anyone with half a brain might stop to ask why it is that black people who make up a minority of the population of the US make up a majority of the people who are arrested? But then since 'Driving while being black' is basically a crime in the eyes of a significant minority of American police officers it's probably not too difficult to work out. 

[Fen Canary 828]

3 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Although anyone with half a brain might stop to ask why it is that black people who make up a minority of the population of the US make up a majority of the people who are arrested? But then since 'Driving while being black' is basically a crime in the eyes of a significant minority of American police officers it's probably not too difficult to work out. 

Because they live in poorer areas and are much more likely to be involved in drugs and crime perhaps? There’s an argument that the government should be doing more to help these deprived areas but you can’t blame the police for arresting too many blacks people if it’s blacks people committing a disproportionate amount of crimes 

[horsefly 4,301]

Some rather ill-informed nonsense being pedalled on this thread. Chauvin had received nearly 900 hours of training. The police officers responsible for Chauvin's training (and other experts on restraint) said he very clearly breached the procedures he had been taught. Even if you want to persist in the claim that 900 hours of training is insufficient, it doesn't explain why that "insufficient" training results in black people being the disproportionate victims of its failings. Chauvin had been subject to 22 complaints and internal investigations for the use of force. The facts indicate that it is not training that is the issue, but the lack of will by the police department (and those responsible for its conduct) to ensure that the training they deliver is put into practice and enforced. 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/here-s-how-unequal-policing-really-is-in-minneapolis-by-the-numbers/ar-BB1fUbhn?ocid=msedgntp

Throughout the trial, numerous current and former Minneapolis police officers, as well as outside experts, testified that Mr Chauvin, a 19-year veteran on the force who had received nearly 900 hours of training, wasn’t following department rules during his fatal arrest of Mr Floyd. It’s not part of the official training, of course, but data suggests that it is in fact quite normal for Minneapolis police to use disproportionate force on Black people.

According to a CNN analysis, in the year after George Floyd’s death, Black people were the targets of more than 60 per cent of police use of force in Minneapolis, compared to their roughly 20 per cent share of the population. Another recent study, from The New York Times, found that officers are seven times more likely to use force on a Black person.

Biased stops and arrests

These same imbalances carry over to how the Minneapolis police department, and state of Minnesota at large, have historically chosen whom to arrest and for what. In 2018, Minneapolis mayor Jacob Frey ordered police to stop low-level marijuana stings because reports showed nearly everyone they arrested for such offences was Black. Still, in 2020, the Minnesota chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union found that Black people were more than five times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession in Minnesota, while another report found that Black Minnesotans in the Minneapolis-St Paul area are incarcerated overall at 11 times the rate of white people. Between June 2019 and May 2020, Black drivers made up nearly 80 per cent of routine traffic stops in Minneapolis.

Though it was largely kept out of the trial, Chauvin himself had a long record of using force, often against people of colour, which continued through the days just before he arrested George Floyd and resulted in 22 complaints or internal investigations over his 19 years on the force, but only one formal instance of discipline. His conviction is believed to be just the second time an on-duty Minnesota police officer has been convicted of murder in the state’s history, and the first time for a white officer.

 

[Herman 9,776]

I think we are going to get another 15 pages of Fen dissembling and distracting. 

[horsefly 4,301]

44 minutes ago, Herman said:

I think we are going to get another 15 pages of Fen dissembling and distracting. 

Yep! No doubt about it. Frankly, I will refuse to respond directly to the posts of a person who having watched 9 and-a-half minutes of a violent and slow murder of an incapacitated man by a Police officer, can only muster a comment that he was a "horrible man" so good-riddance. I suspect that the fatal police shooting of a black teenage girl on the day of the Floyd verdict ticked all his favourite boxes. I suggest we all ignore his race-bating BS.

Edited April 22, 2021 by horsefly

[Van wink 2,994]

11 hours ago, king canary said:

In a lot of cases in the US I think it is much more an issue of training than one of racism- the horrific Breonna Taylor case being an example of police basically being asked to do operations that are more at home in the military than domestic law enforcement. 

I believe one of the (many) significant points to come out of the trial was that serving police officers testified against "one of their own", something that rarely happens in the US and has broken the blue line of silence. Hopefully this will introduce a level of doubt in the minds of those who believe they are above the law and can literally get away with murder.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Van wink

[king canary 7,609]

10 minutes ago, Van wink said:

I believe one of the (many) significant points to come out of the trial was that serving police officers testified against "one of their own", something that rarely happens in the US and has broken the blue line of silence. Hopefully this will introduce a level of doubt in the minds of those who believe they are above the law and can literally get away with murder.

Yeah - to be clear I don't see this case as an issue with training- nobody is trained to kneel on the neck of a man in handcuffs for 9 minutes until they pass out. 

[horsefly 4,301]

11 hours ago, king canary said:

In a lot of cases in the US I think it is much more an issue of training than one of racism- the horrific Breonna Taylor case being an example of police basically being asked to do operations that are more at home in the military than domestic law enforcement. 

I agree that the sort of "No knock" raids that lead to the tragic death of Breonna Taylor are highly controversial (Indeed, in this particular case the justification for such a raid was also missing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Breonna_Taylor (see the section titled "warrant")) . However, it remains the case that the execution of that raid clearly breached the training guidelines for how they should be conducted (i.e. they are well trained not to fire blindly into a building where that risks a danger to other people). It's not that there is a lack of training or clarity on these issues, it's rather the case that some of those who have been trained simply ignore the training they have received. It was instructive to hear the views of the NY veteran police officer who Tucker Carlson so rudely cut off when he didn't provide the answer Tucker wanted. He pointed out that he had employed "use of force" in over 500 instances during the course of his career, and yet not once had he rendered the person he restrained unconscious. This is fundamentally about the attitude of some officers who wilfully ignore their training and regulations, and the attitude of the police departments and authorities in enforcing the strict application of the rules of police conduct.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

11 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

I’m sorry but I don’t believe skin colour had anything to do with it in this case, or with the vast majority of police shootings in the States to be honest. When broken down to number of killings per arrests of each ethnicity over there whites are actually more likely to be killed than blacks, but blacks get arrested at a much higher rate which distorts the statistics in relation to police killings. It’s far too simplistic to simply say that because blacks are killed disproportionately to their percentage of the population therefore all police are racist, which seems to be the general opinion regarding this case. As others have said, it’s much more to do with an armed society and poor training, which is done at a State level rather than a recognised national one

You have to ask yourself whether the murderer would have acted in the same way if the person was of a Caucasian hue. The jury has done well and we can only hope that no loophole will be found in proceedings or judgement that will let him off his due prison term, very likely to be 25 plus years. It is to be seen whether the judiciary in the US and the parole service will also need reforming, not just the close shop training the US police receives.

Their armed forces, after having committed a felony abroad, are equally protected by their own kind and the regulations of a rotten system. A US service person, be it civil and or a soldier who commit a murder here, see Mrs. Sacolass and many others before her, are whisked away within good time, usually within 24 hrs,. whilst our police has no jurisdiction on their bases with regards to arrest and has to go along with such charade.

Maybe the US policing service with big guns drawn first, and a lot of bluster, whether its a stop and search and or a simple traffic violation, appeals to those in the Fenlands. My guess would be the constant up and down on their daily drives on wonky roads might have something to do with that. ( pure sarcasm)

Edited April 22, 2021 by nevermind, neoliberalism has had it

[Jools 584]

10 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Although anyone with half a brain might stop to ask why it is that black people who make up a minority of the population of the US make up a majority of the people who are arrested? 

Use your half a brain to research above question and come back and post your fact-based, honest conclusions...

Actually, don't, it'll get you banned..

I speak from experience 😉 

[Jools 584]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

I suggest we all ignore race-bating BS.

Good suggestion 👍 I'm sure I'm not the only Pink'Un member who is ignoring you and your ilk, coco..

[horsefly 4,301]

13 minutes ago, Jools said:

Good suggestion 👍 I'm sure I'm not the only Pink'Un member who is ignoring you and your ilk, coco..

Oh dear! Clearly another bad dementia day for old Gammon head. Too stupid to see the laughably thick contradiction in this post.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

3 hours ago, horsefly said:

Some rather ill-informed nonsense being pedalled on this thread. Chauvin had received nearly 900 hours of training. The police officers responsible for Chauvin's training (and other experts on restraint) said he very clearly breached the procedures he had been taught. Even if you want to persist in the claim that 900 hours of training is insufficient, it doesn't explain why that "insufficient" training results in black people being the disproportionate victims of its failings. Chauvin had been subject to 22 complaints and internal investigations for the use of force. The facts indicate that it is not training that is the issue, but the lack of will by the police department (and those responsible for its conduct) to ensure that the training they deliver is put into practice and enforced. 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/here-s-how-unequal-policing-really-is-in-minneapolis-by-the-numbers/ar-BB1fUbhn?ocid=msedgntp

Throughout the trial, numerous current and former Minneapolis police officers, as well as outside experts, testified that Mr Chauvin, a 19-year veteran on the force who had received nearly 900 hours of training, wasn’t following department rules during his fatal arrest of Mr Floyd. It’s not part of the official training, of course, but data suggests that it is in fact quite normal for Minneapolis police to use disproportionate force on Black people.

According to a CNN analysis, in the year after George Floyd’s death, Black people were the targets of more than 60 per cent of police use of force in Minneapolis, compared to their roughly 20 per cent share of the population. Another recent study, from The New York Times, found that officers are seven times more likely to use force on a Black person.

Biased stops and arrests

These same imbalances carry over to how the Minneapolis police department, and state of Minnesota at large, have historically chosen whom to arrest and for what. In 2018, Minneapolis mayor Jacob Frey ordered police to stop low-level marijuana stings because reports showed nearly everyone they arrested for such offences was Black. Still, in 2020, the Minnesota chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union found that Black people were more than five times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession in Minnesota, while another report found that Black Minnesotans in the Minneapolis-St Paul area are incarcerated overall at 11 times the rate of white people. Between June 2019 and May 2020, Black drivers made up nearly 80 per cent of routine traffic stops in Minneapolis.

Though it was largely kept out of the trial, Chauvin himself had a long record of using force, often against people of colour, which continued through the days just before he arrested George Floyd and resulted in 22 complaints or internal investigations over his 19 years on the force, but only one formal instance of discipline. His conviction is believed to be just the second time an on-duty Minnesota police officer has been convicted of murder in the state’s history, and the first time for a white officer.

 

Not agreed at all in general - it's very well-documented that the amount of training an average policeman gets in the USA is far less than policemen in most other countries. That doesn't necessarily mean it supersedes racist behaviour from them - in fact, I would even hypothesise that the two could even be somewhat interlinked in general, even if potentially not in the Floyd case.

What Are Police Like in Other Countries? (cfr.org)

"The duration and type of training varies widely worldwide. Recruits in the United States spend significantly less time in police academies than those in most European countries. Basic U.S. training programs take twenty-one weeks on average, whereas similar European programs can last more than three years [PDF]. In Finland and Norway, recruits study policing in national colleges, spending part of the time in an internship with local police, and earn degrees in criminal justice or related fields."

[horsefly 4,301]

6 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Not agreed at all in general - it's very well-documented that the amount of training an average policeman gets in the USA is far less than policemen in most other countries. That doesn't necessarily mean it supersedes racist behaviour from them - in fact, I would even hypothesise that the two could even be somewhat interlinked in general, even if potentially not in the Floyd case.

What Are Police Like in Other Countries? (cfr.org)

"The duration and type of training varies widely worldwide. Recruits in the United States spend significantly less time in police academies than those in most European countries. Basic U.S. training programs take twenty-one weeks on average, whereas similar European programs can last more than three years [PDF]. In Finland and Norway, recruits study policing in national colleges, spending part of the time in an internship with local police, and earn degrees in criminal justice or related fields."

I don't disagree at all that police training could be improved. However, are you really suggesting that Chauvin's behaviour (and that of the all too many officers like him) is genuinely down to a lack of training? It really doesn't take that long to train someone in how to practice safe restraint procedures. The man was reported at least 22 times for using excessive force. His failures were not attributable to a lack of the amount (or understanding) of training in safe restraint practices (the trial evidence couldn't have made that any clearer). He was clearly a violent, ill-motivated individual who should have not been allowed anywhere near a blue uniform. He and his like should have been identified and removed from the police force the minute it became apparent that they lacked the appropriate character and temperament to excercise lawful power and authority with impartial good judgement. 

[kick it off 1,952]

13 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

I’m sorry but I don’t believe skin colour had anything to do with it in this case, or with the vast majority of police shootings in the States to be honest. When broken down to number of killings per arrests of each ethnicity over there whites are actually more likely to be killed than blacks, but blacks get arrested at a much higher rate which distorts the statistics in relation to police killings. It’s far too simplistic to simply say that because blacks are killed disproportionately to their percentage of the population therefore all police are racist, which seems to be the general opinion regarding this case. As others have said, it’s much more to do with an armed society and poor training, which is done at a State level rather than a recognised national one

So how many unarmed white guys have they arrested by pinning them down like that then? You're full of ****. If he was white he would have been put calmly into the car and you know that as well as anyone else. The police do not treat black and white people in the same way and the justice system doesn't either. You're deluded if you think otherwise.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

11 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I don't disagree at all that police training could be improved. However, are you really suggesting that Chauvin's behaviour (and that of the all too many officers like him) is genuinely down to a lack of training? It really doesn't take that long to train someone in how to practice safe restraint procedures. The man was reported at least 22 times for using excessive force. His failures were not attributable to a lack of the amount (or understanding) of training in safe restraint practices (the trial evidence couldn't have made that any clearer). He was clearly a violent, ill-motivated individual who should have not been allowed anywhere near a blue uniform. He and his like should have been identified and removed from the police force the minute it became apparent that they lacked the appropriate character and temperament to excercise lawful power and authority with impartial good judgement. 

It's not just about safe restraint practices. The link I put in also showed that very little time is given to conflict resolution amongst officers in the USA relative to police officers in other countries (and particularly Scandinavia). Ultimately, conflict resolution is a key part of an officer's job - if not indeed the main one. It is obvious that US officers are sold massively short in this, thinking they'll just resolve it with brute force and a gun.

Also, if you think they lack the appropriate character and temperament, wouldn't you think much more stringent, comprehensive training would not have made this evident beforehand even before they actually get into the force? I strongly suspect that such a lack of training results in a culture favouring such atavistic temperaments to thrive within law enforcement to the detriment of the sector.

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

I'm just thankful that our police force, for all its faults, is better than this.

Yes they have failings but as the saying goes, try to police by consent than by force.

Our police do have racism issues both in attitude and recruitment but we expose these issues and ty to do better not try to pretend they don't exist (well some do anyway). Equally we don't have a firearm 'culture'.

  

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

It isn't just the police that does appear to have more than its share of racists in its number.

The military is equally encumbered with many who have a problem with race.

I do wonder at times if the attempt at psychology as a method of inspiring those military and police, such as "the finest" or "the bravest" has led to an elitist outlook and civilians are weak willed and disobedient.

[Jools 584]

16 hours ago, king canary said:

In a lot of cases in the US I think it is much more an issue of training than one of racism- the horrific Breonna Taylor case being an example of police basically being asked to do operations that are more at home in the military than domestic law enforcement. 

Aye, Breonna Taylor’s mother spoke out last Sunday accusing BLM of fraudulence... She agreed with Candace Owens who said 'BLM is a racist organisation that uses the faces of dead black people to fund and empower white Democrats.' 
 

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

20 minutes ago, Jools said:

Aye, Breonna Taylor’s mother spoke out last Sunday accusing BLM of fraudulence... She agreed with Candace Owens who said 'BLM is a racist organisation that uses the faces of dead black people to fund and empower white Democrats.' 
 

She called some local representatives 'Fraud'. 

She has never said that she agrees with Candace Owens.

Jools is a fraud.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

4 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

She called some local representatives 'Fraud'. 

She has never said that she agrees with Candace Owens.

Jools is a fraud.

Selective according to him.

Lying to us.

[horsefly 4,301]

2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

It's not just about safe restraint practices. The link I put in also showed that very little time is given to conflict resolution amongst officers in the USA relative to police officers in other countries (and particularly Scandinavia). Ultimately, conflict resolution is a key part of an officer's job - if not indeed the main one. It is obvious that US officers are sold massively short in this, thinking they'll just resolve it with brute force and a gun.

Also, if you think they lack the appropriate character and temperament, wouldn't you think much more stringent, comprehensive training would not have made this evident beforehand even before they actually get into the force? I strongly suspect that such a lack of training results in a culture favouring such atavistic temperaments to thrive within law enforcement to the detriment of the sector.

Again, I agree with most of that. The lead has to come from the top that characters like Chauvin will simply not be tolerated, and neither will the police departments themselves seek to protect such officers from prosecution or dismissal. The original statement from the Police at the time of George Floyd's murder was that he had suffered a medical emergency, not one mention that he had been physically restrained with a knee on his neck for over nine minutes. Had there been no one there to record what actually happened I strongly suspect they would have stood by that original statement. So, yes, you're right that improved training is crucial, but Biden is also surely right when he says that the deeply embedded culture of institutionalised racism must be confronted as a matter of priority.

[horsefly 4,301]

Guess who has a past history of kneeling on a black person's neck while he pleaded he couldn't breathe:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/doj-weighing-additional-charges-against-derek-chauvin-for-using-force-on-black-teen-in-2017/ar-BB1fZ6Wm?ocid=msedgntp

Last year, as state prosecutors prepared their case against Chauvin for the murder of Mr Floyd, they sought to introduce evidence relating to the 2017 arrest. According to a court filing, in that incident, a 14-year-old Black boy was reportedly slow to comply with officers’ instructions, so Chauvin allegedly grabbed him by the throat, forced him to the ground, and put a knee into his neck and back, kneeling on top of him for nearly 17 minutes as the boy complained he couldn’t breathe.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]