New Tory Leader

[Herman 9,820]

I take it you won't be listening to Ed Balls and Osborn's podcast Dan? 

[canarydan23 4,060]

2 minutes ago, Herman said:

I take it you won't be listening to Ed Balls and Osborn's podcast Dan? 

Nope, pair of tw*ts.

[Yellow Fever 3,821]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

Liz Truss all over the news today. Why the hell is she still being taken seriously?? 

Only as a mirror to the dotty Tory party members who voted for her. 

I rest my case as to an upper age limit for suffrage.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[Herman 9,820]

9 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Only as a mirror to the dotty Tory party members who voted for her. 

I rest my case as to an upper age limit for suffrage.

Henry Riley of LBC put out a short list of who was at her speech. (Either that or it was Jools's Christmas card list) . Farage, Minford, Forte, Elliott etc Zero sense of shame, any of them. 

[dylanisabaddog 4,975]

2 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

A posh voice and some bold statements out of office is all it takes to rewrite a whole parliamentary career.

Rory Stewart supported and voted for some appalling policies. Consistently voted against support for those on welfare, a more progressive tax system, the shifting of the tax burden onto the rich, expansion of public ownership, a banker's bonus tax, a more proportional and elected upper chamber. Whilst he actively voted for keeping power concentrated in Westminster (despite allegedly seeing how grotesquely unqualified MPs were, hmmm), phasing out secure tenancy agreements to help out those hard done by second or multiple homeowners and reducing corporation tax.

The guy is a hypocrite and only now he's out of office do we see this more humane side to him. He'll do whatever is needed to publicise Rory Stewart and feather his own nest. I don't swallow a word he says. That he would perhaps have been an improvement on the cluster****s that were May, Johsnon, Truss, but that's the equivalent of saying it's better to get punched by Carl Froch than Tyson Fury.

I think you're perhaps missing the point. Yes, I'd rather be hit by Froch than Fury. Obviously I'd prefer neither but the simple fact is the country would be in a far better position had Stewart won the leadership vote. 

[KiwiScot 1,460]

4 hours ago, Herman said:

Liz Truss all over the news today. Why the hell is she still being taken seriously?? 

Because she's going to lower taxes(then repeat that five times to any other argument)

[Well b back 3,275]

Blimey, just watching Laura Kuenssberg: State of Chaos.

Anyone who thought Johnson didn’t lie and brought our wonderful country to its knees, has to now believe he did, and those like me who always thought he lied and wrecked our country probably didn’t realise quite how much.

What a complete w*****.

It seems despite his denials, those dogs in Afghanastain were prioritised above humans, that in the main had helped our country, then they were thrown under a bus.

[canarydan23 4,060]

6 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I think you're perhaps missing the point. Yes, I'd rather be hit by Froch than Fury. Obviously I'd prefer neither but the simple fact is the country would be in a far better position had Stewart won the leadership vote. 

It would be in a fractionally better position. You're confusing the ex-MP Stewart we now see with the parliamentary Stewart who voted for all the destructive, insidious crap the Tories have forced on us for the past 13 years. Had he won the leadership contest, he would continued to have been the pathetic shill the rest of his party would have had to be. It was only once he realised he had no future in the Tory machine that he suddenly started to portray himself as likable.

Don't be fooled. He's barely better than the rest of them.

[Well b back 3,275]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

It would be in a fractionally better position. You're confusing the ex-MP Stewart we now see with the parliamentary Stewart who voted for all the destructive, insidious crap the Tories have forced on us for the past 13 years. Had he won the leadership contest, he would continued to have been the pathetic shill the rest of his party would have had to be. It was only once he realised he had no future in the Tory machine that he suddenly started to portray himself as likable.

Don't be fooled. He's barely better than the rest of them.

Barely better than the rest of them ? Are you really saying

He would have barely bettered Johnson, who was a liar that began the destruction of our country and the Tory party.

He would have destroyed our economy barely less than Truss.

And he would then barely be better than a PM who lies like Johnson, just acts more like a grown up.

Have to say with Stewart, it could not possibly have been worse and who knows, maybe I would not have had to lend my Tory vote in the next GE to whoever can bring them down.

[dylanisabaddog 4,975]

8 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

It would be in a fractionally better position. You're confusing the ex-MP Stewart we now see with the parliamentary Stewart who voted for all the destructive, insidious crap the Tories have forced on us for the past 13 years. Had he won the leadership contest, he would continued to have been the pathetic shill the rest of his party would have had to be. It was only once he realised he had no future in the Tory machine that he suddenly started to portray himself as likable.

Don't be fooled. He's barely better than the rest of them.

I'm afraid voting records are no use when making a judgement unless it's a free vote. MPs in general follow the party line. 

It will be interesting to see if Stewart returns to the party fold. I remember talking to a Tory voter the day after the televised leadership debate. He described Stewart as a bit too clever for his own good. Johnson supporters strongly disapprove of clever people! 

Edited September 19, 2023 by dylanisabaddog

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I think Stewart is a politician who saw an opportunity to become popular by appearing sensible, a mediator, willing to listen and decisive about policies. Whether he was sincere is debatable. If he was, then Labour would have no chance at the next election if he had become PM. 

The corrupt, inept Conservative governments since Brexit gave Stewart his opportunity. But remember he is still a Tory in outlook. There is no fairy tale ending where he becomes deputy Leader of the Labour Party.

[duke63 545]

On 18/09/2023 at 17:40, KiwiScot said:

Because she's going to lower taxes(then repeat that five times to any other argument)

We have had 13 years of that rhetoric and look where it has got us!

 

More than double the national debt

Next to no police force.

NHS on its knees and private healthcare taking over.

Roads falling to pieces quite literally.

Way to much traffic on the roads yet an ever poorer local public transport service.

A rail service that is decades behind our European neighbours.

HMRC on its knees.

Local Councils no longer funded properly and going bust one after the other.

School buildings in danger of collapse on our pupils.. 174 separate schools at today's count.

Due to the above, some students only spending every other week at school.

The highest inflation figures in the 'advanced' world.

Public borrowing at record levels.

 

Seems to me that tax cuts are the very very last thing this Country needs.

 

 

[Herman 9,820]

Sunak pandering to the anti-science lunatic fringe is going down well. 😬

[Creative Midfielder 2,002]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Sunak pandering to the anti-science lunatic fringe is going down well. 😬

Yep, he seems to be following in the august steps of Trump & Johnson - pandering to the lowest common denominator in the (tiny) Tory party which is fine for keeping the hard core nutters on board but will alienate a large majority of the electorate even further.

I was going to say 'floating voters' but I'm honestly not sure whether they still exist in any great number, the only doubt that seems to exist in most peoples' minds in Tory held seats is whether voting Labour or Lib Dem is most likely to be the best route to defeating the Tories.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

9 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Yep, he seems to be following in the august steps of Trump & Johnson - pandering to the lowest common denominator in the (tiny) Tory party which is fine for keeping the hard core nutters on board but will alienate a large majority of the electorate even further.

I was going to say 'floating voters' but I'm honestly not sure whether they still exist in any great number, the only doubt that seems to exist in most peoples' minds in Tory held seats is whether voting Labour or Lib Dem is most likely to be the best route to defeating the Tories.

Then Labour come on to rubbish the Tories and when asked wha tthe ywould do they have no answer. They supported the original plan. So why don't they say they will stick to that. 

I am getting more and more disillusioned with Labour right now and expecting Starmer to announce that he is proposing a merger with the Tories to form the new TotalCon party.

[Creative Midfielder 2,002]

41 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Then Labour come on to rubbish the Tories and when asked wha tthe ywould do they have no answer. They supported the original plan. So why don't they say they will stick to that. 

I am getting more and more disillusioned with Labour right now and expecting Starmer to announce that he is proposing a merger with the Tories to form the new TotalCon party.

The laugh was only with respect to your last sentence, completely agree with the first paragraph.

Although I'm not a Labour supporter I obviously want the oppostion parties to comprehensively crush the Tories at the next GE which means it is essential that Labour, and Starmer, do well but his ultra cautious and totally insipid approach has always had me very concerned how well they are actually going to perform when the time comes.

[Yellow Fever 3,821]

5 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

The laugh was only with respect to your last sentence, completely agree with the first paragraph.

Although I'm not a Labour supporter I obviously want the oppostion parties to comprehensively crush the Tories at the next GE which means it is essential that Labour, and Starmer, do well but his ultra cautious and totally insipid approach has always had me very concerned how well they are actually going to perform when the time comes.

If the polls are to be believed extremely well!

We all have our pet policies and whereas offering further 'left' policies may attract some it would no doubt rebuff others and of course give our notorious largely rabid right wing media some red meat. I think he's doing just fine.

[Creative Midfielder 2,002]

8 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

If the polls are to be believed extremely well!

We all have our pet policies and whereas offering further 'left' policies may attract some it would no doubt rebuff others and of course give our notorious largely rabid right wing media some red meat. I think he's doing just fine.

True, but how big is that if?

I understand the argument about the rabid right wing media and I accept that it is sensible for Starmer to be cautious about giving the RWNJ's ammunition but I struggle to believe that he needs to be as timid and insipid as he is, and I also feel that his refusal to 'work with/co-operate' with other opposition parties in any form is downright stupid.

His lead in the polls is impressive but actually after 13 years of truly awful Tory Governments and with the country and the economy a shambles I think there is a reasonable argument to say his lead should be even bigger.

But my real worry is that his lead, though large, is IMO a very soft one. I detect hardly any enthusiasm for Starmer and his policies so that lead is based almost entirely on anti-Tory voter rather than pro-Starmer/Labour voter and therefore it could still change quite quickly if Sunak had a clue or something unexpected happens.

Fortunately, Sunak has to date proved that he is clueless and indeed pretty useless generally, and actually seems intent on pissing even more people off rather than winning any of the lost Tory voters back but the unexpected is ........well, unexpected!

 

[Yellow Fever 3,821]

3 hours ago, Herman said:

Sunak pandering to the anti-science lunatic fringe is going down well. 😬

We may disagree a bit here. Whatever we do must be practical and not just idealistic and unworldly.

The 2030 date for petrol/diesel cars has looked nonsensical and in need of pushing back for several years (well it was Johnsonism so no surprise a bit like the airport in the Thames or the NI bridge) - not least because France and Germany have already pushed it back already to 2035. In truth of course if electric vehicles can up their game then market forces will ensure that 2030 or 2035 becomes more moot. I note that the vehicle industry is now expecting a market influx of much cheaper, good Chinese vehicles (hence the EUs 10% tariffs so that their home industries have time to adapt). Still need the generation & charging infrastructure* though else it will be still born.

Gas boilers from 2035 is a good idea BUT as also with electric vehicles need to ensure we have sufficient electricity generation to cope as if not both the lights and heating may stop! 

So keep the 2050 target but double down on renewables and base nuclear. And that does mean the nimbies better get out of the way of pylons, wind and solar farms, nuclear and wash barriers.

* Funny observation  a week or so back at LHR. Picked car up at long stay (valet) park - its was parked with many (IC) others in otherwise unused electric charging bays. I guess not enough demand for them!

[Yellow Fever 3,821]

24 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

True, but how big is that if?

I understand the argument about the rabid right wing media and I accept that it is sensible for Starmer to be cautious about giving the RWNJ's ammunition but I struggle to believe that he needs to be as timid and insipid as he is, and I also feel that his refusal to 'work with/co-operate' with other opposition parties in any form is downright stupid.

His lead in the polls is impressive but actually after 13 years of truly awful Tory Governments and with the country and the economy a shambles I think there is a reasonable argument to say his lead should be even bigger.

But my real worry is that his lead, though large, is IMO a very soft one. I detect hardly any enthusiasm for Starmer and his policies so that lead is based almost entirely on anti-Tory voter rather than pro-Starmer/Labour voter and therefore it could still change quite quickly if Sunak had a clue or something unexpected happens.

Fortunately, Sunak has to date proved that he is clueless and indeed pretty useless generally, and actually seems intent on pissing even more people off rather than winning any of the lost Tory voters back but the unexpected is ........well, unexpected!

 

I think you'll find as the election looms SKS will flesh out more polices - many of which are actually probably quite radical in their way (HoL, Energy, Green, Industry etc) - indeed he's even started to play with the sow's ear that is Brexit. That's actually quite brave although very welcome.

Don't forget that it also appears that 20% of the electorate will vote Tory whatever. Same as Trump supporters. Lights on but nobody home. 

Corbyn couldn't give away dollar bills for 90c on the street corner by contrast.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[Pyro Pete 1,917]

 

[Yellow Fever 3,821]

1 hour ago, Pyro Pete said:

 

Yes - There's a lot to be said even from the Tory side for knowing when to quit and pass their s h i t legacy onto Labour. They desperately need their forty years in the wilderness to rejuvenate themselves again and for Brexit & Johnson to ancient history and a bad dream. 

However, I rather suspect SKS would rather they remain in power for the next year or so anyway so that all the opprobrium possible can stick (those rising mortgage rates) and leave him at least an improving situation from the bottom and a lot of goodwill given the economic lag factors. 

[ricardo 7,397]

They will still be buying ICE cars from Europe up to 2035 so what we do won't make one iota of difference. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Yes - There's a lot to be said even from the Tory side for knowing when to quit and pass their s h i t legacy onto Labour. They desperately need their forty years in the wilderness to rejuvenate themselves again and for Brexit & Johnson to ancient history and a bad dream. 

However, I rather suspect SKS would rather they remain in power for the next year or so anyway so that all the opprobrium possible can stick (those rising mortgage rates) and leave him at least an improving situation from the bottom and a lot of goodwill given the economic lag factors. 

Although the rate of inflation is dropping that will help Sunak. I just have a feeling that he will try one moment of madness before the GE to try to retain power. Tax cuts mean very little to minimum wage earners so he is going to have come up with a barnstormer.

 

[TheGunnShow 5,993]

If you're a disgruntled Labour supporter of the older school (and therefore somewhat more left-wing), the problem is that due to FPTP, any vote that's not for the most likely party to unseat the Tories helps the Tories stay in, so basically it's making the average the enemy of the far better, whilst letting the total dross slide by.

EDIT: Basically, the monolith that is ideologically closer to an emerging third party is the one that is disproportionately hit as the vote is split. So, expect some media elements to basically highlight a similarity and basically say "better the devil you know" and others to bemoan the lack of variety in the aim of keeping this shower in.

Edited September 20, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[Yellow Fever 3,821]

5 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Although the rate of inflation is dropping that will help Sunak. I just have a feeling that he will try one moment of madness before the GE to try to retain power. Tax cuts mean very little to minimum wage earners so he is going to have come up with a barnstormer.

What - exile half his party in Rwanda (no need to bother about their human rights or due process - they don't believe in such 'woke' things anyway) and join the SM? He'd get a few votes for that!

Tax cuts won't work as you say - inheritance tax - all a bit take from the poor and give to the rich. 

Write off student debt / loans ?

 

[Herman 9,820]

4 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

We may disagree a bit here. Whatever we do must be practical and not just idealistic and unworldly.

The 2030 date for petrol/diesel cars has looked nonsensical and in need of pushing back for several years (well it was Johnsonism so no surprise a bit like the airport in the Thames or the NI bridge) - not least because France and Germany have already pushed it back already to 2035. In truth of course if electric vehicles can up their game then market forces will ensure that 2030 or 2035 becomes more moot. I note that the vehicle industry is now expecting a market influx of much cheaper, good Chinese vehicles (hence the EUs 10% tariffs so that their home industries have time to adapt). Still need the generation & charging infrastructure* though else it will be still born.

Gas boilers from 2035 is a good idea BUT as also with electric vehicles need to ensure we have sufficient electricity generation to cope as if not both the lights and heating may stop! 

So keep the 2050 target but double down on renewables and base nuclear. And that does mean the nimbies better get out of the way of pylons, wind and solar farms, nuclear and wash barriers.

* Funny observation  a week or so back at LHR. Picked car up at long stay (valet) park - its was parked with many (IC) others in otherwise unused electric charging bays. I guess not enough demand for them!

I don't disagree with this too much but if there is a target set then Sunak should have stuck to it, or at least have a good discussion with the manufacturers with what he is planning. All it looks to all is his weakness and just trying to get a few good Mail headlines. 

[Canary73 160]

1 minute ago, Herman said:

I don't disagree with this too much but if there is a target set then Sunak should have stuck to it, or at least have a good discussion with the manufacturers with what he is planning. All it looks to all is his weakness and just trying to get a few good Mail headlines. 

It’s also yet creating policy by press conference. This should be a matter to be debated in Parliament. Hoyle is too weak to compel Parliament to return to debate the issue and his glib statements have no bearing on the Government. 

[Yellow Fever 3,821]

35 minutes ago, Herman said:

I don't disagree with this too much but if there is a target set then Sunak should have stuck to it, or at least have a good discussion with the manufacturers with what he is planning. All it looks to all is his weakness and just trying to get a few good Mail headlines. 

As you know I'm pretty critical, indeed incandescent with the unhinged economic 'idealism' or lala land of Brexit/Johnson and latterly Truss. Economic plans (whether or not they match my own centre-left thoughts/preferences as to the way society should function) must add up else bankruptcy follows. The Brexit/ERG experiment only makes sense if we move rapidly to a low tax, low benefits, hire'em fire'em US model. Cut taxes, cut pensions (yes CUT), cut benefits and yes pay to use NHS. Don't work then don't eat. A very much lower 'safety' net. Then we may be able to compete vs China and the rest of the developing world outside Europe. Don't think that's a vote winner especially amongst the elderly and needy Brexiteers. Truss went half way with all the tax cuts, more immigration but not the CUTS to balance it up. The markets just laughed and delivered their verdict.

I apply the same criticism to pie-in-the-sky environmental idealists or what might be called green flag waving loons. Yes we need to clean up our act urgently but what we do must be effective and not just virtue signalling or indeed 'green' used to camouflage other left polices such as anti-car whatever the technology employed. Things must add up.

The 'car' won't be un-invented (it will change) no more than your fridge will. They will go electric, autonomous even and yes go more 'green'. We won't all cycle everywhere or eat lentils unless we all live in large metropolitan cities and even then....

If Sunak at least on this subject is being rational then he gets my support. Proper green polices not hollow ones. No leafy county Tory nimbies either

Now to hide behind the sofa (possibly a bit too early for tonight - think we'll sneak win and it past time Idah had blinder)!

Edited September 20, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[littleyellowbirdie 2,590]

10 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

As you know I'm pretty critical, indeed incandescent with the unhinged economic 'idealism' or lala land of Brexit/Johnson and latterly Truss. Economic plans (whether or not they match my own centre-left thoughts/preferences as to the way society should function) must add up else bankruptcy follows. The Brexit/ERG experiment only makes sense if we move rapidly to a low tax, low benefits, hire'em fire'em US model. Cut taxes, cut pensions (yes CUT), cut benefits and yes pay to use NHS. Don't work then don't eat. A very much lower 'safety' net. Then we may be able to compete vs China and the rest of the developing world outside Europe. Don't think that's a vote winner especially amongst the elderly and needy Brexiteers. Truss went half way with all the tax cuts, more immigration but not the CUTS to balance it up. The markets just laughed and delivered their verdict.

I apply the same criticism to pie-in-the-sky environmental idealists or what might be called green flag waving loons. Yes we need to clean up our act urgently but what we do must be effective and not just virtue signalling or indeed 'green' used to camouflage other left polices such as anti-car whatever the technology employed. Things must add up.

The 'car' won't be un-invented (it will change) no more than your fridge will. They will go electric, autonomous even and yes go more 'green'. We won't all cycle everywhere or eat lentils unless we all live in large metropolitan cities and even then....

If Sunak at least on this subject is being rational then he gets my support. Proper green polices not hollow ones. No leafy county Tory nimbies either

Now to hide behind the sofa (possibly a bit too early for tonight - think we'll sneak win and it past time Idah had blinder)!

Hardly anyone wanted to leave the EU because of economics. The failure to understand that is why remain lost. And your continued failure to understand it is why you're on a hiding to nothing going on about it.

Edited September 20, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie