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Just now, TeemuVanBasten said:

A manifesto is a document which tells you what party would do should they win the next election. You don't get elected and then tell people what you are going to do.

They'll have to think of some new ideas won't they.

ps. No horse in this race, as I won't be voting for either party.

Nor me as a lifelong Tory voter I will not give a stuff as to what the manifesto’s say I will be voting for the one that has the best chance of getting my current Tory MP out. The only thing that would change that would be any party that guaranteed a new Brexit vote ( which won’t happen ) as to use the words of the great leader Trump, my vote was stolen via lots of lies.

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Just now, Well b back said:

Nor me as a lifelong Tory voter I will not give a stuff as to what the manifesto’s say I will be voting for the one that has the best chance of getting my current Tory MP out.

Where I currently live the Lib Dems are more likely to kick the Tory out, so I'll probably vote for them as long as they put up a serious and credible candidate.

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Listened to the statement and realise there is only so much he can do and it wasn't as bad as I expected.

But to claim they instigated the living wage is just so funny. They said it would ruin the country originally.

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There will be meteor shower tonight.

Please don't be alarmed as it's just the Tory / Brexiteers returning to reality and burning up. Some may land with thud.

Henceforth it will be forever known as the Tory shower.

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So roughly eight weeks ago the Tory benches were full of crowing MPs cheering Kami-Kwasi's list of sixty or so billions of unfunded tax cuts. Today their benches are full of MPs cheering sixty or so billions of tax rises (and service cuts). No better demonstration that the Tory Party is stuffed full of clueless buffoons only interested in their own personal survival.

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38 minutes ago, horsefly said:

So roughly eight weeks ago the Tory benches were full of crowing MPs cheering Kami-Kwasi's list of sixty or so billions of unfunded tax cuts. Today their benches are full of MPs cheering sixty or so billions of tax rises (and service cuts). No better demonstration that the Tory Party is stuffed full of clueless buffoons only interested in their own personal survival.

I'll never forget how late in the day Ben Wallace came out in support of Liz Truss to ensure he keeps his ministerial salary.

He's a career-long One Nation Conservative, she was in complete opposite to his ideological terms (in as far as the internal party spectrum, not the whole political spectrum).

What a sell out.

Edited by TeemuVanBasten
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I think people need to face up to fact that the West is in managed decline, our living standards are falling because our share of the pie is shrinking. 

There's no economic growth. There's been no real economic growth for decades. Employment at records highs in recent years, vacancies at record highs. Too many economically inactive, mainly retirees, not enough people of PAYE age.

No government is going to stop this decline, its just not the Wests century. Even Australia's recent boom years were driven by Chinese demand for their raw materials.

In the absence of any real prospect of real growth we are only left with cloth cutting as our realistic option. 

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33 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Too many economically inactive, mainly retirees, not enough people of PAYE age.

This is frankly why we need immigration - but exactly the same demographic are largely the set most against it.

Go figure.

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10 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

This is frankly why we need immigration - but exactly the same demographic are largely the set most against it.

Go figure.

I don't disagree.

We do need to go back to the drawing board on that, we could clearly be more liberal with working visas.

I also think its pretty stupid when people criticise Poles for coming here, working their **** off and buying a £50k house in their home countries.

Yes it is money leaving the economy.... however they also become Poland's bum to wipe when they are old if they retire back home, so swings and roundabouts.

Its clear that we need to be more liberal with visas for care workers, agricultural workers and production line workers / machine operators. That much is clear. I've probably missed a few sectors, but its enough to illustrate the point.

The problem is the cost of living now so high in the UK, and the pound so weak, that are we even at the top of the list of preferred destinations. If we are its only because we managed to fluke making our language the one that people are most likely to have as a second language in Europe. They can make more money in Germany, and its closer to home.

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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Just now, TeemuVanBasten said:

I don't disagree.

We do need to go back to the drawing board on that, we could clearly be more liberal with working visas.

I also think its pretty stupid when people criticise Poles for coming here, working their **** off and buying a £50k house in their home countries.

Yes it is money leaving the economy.... however they also become Poland's bum to wipe when they are old if they retire back home, so swings and roundabouts.

Its clear that we need to be more liberal with visas for care workers, agricultural workers and production line workers / machine operators. That much is clear. I've probably missed a few sectors, but its enough to illustrate the point.

It's my point - most of our old Brexiteers will have to learn to wipe each others bums in care home in due course - there won't be anybody else to help them or £10k/month (and yes we'll take your house and shirt off your back)!

Its really why the SM and freedom of movement was such an inspired idea - a win - win. Poorer EU countries with excess labour, people could find jobs in wealthier ones with shortages - solving labour problems in the wealthier and bringing the poorer countries up to the same standard (and then create new wealthier markets such as now in Poland). Add to that we are all Europeans with a similar cultural background (take a trip around Eastern Europe and see all the architectural remnants of the Austro-Hungarian empire). The 'soviet' era was simply a 100 year interruption.

I give it less than ten years now before we will be trying to 're-align / re-join in all but in name. The Brexiteers were just swimming against the tide nostalgic for a world of the mid 20th century that no longer exists.

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4 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Regardless of who's in government, civil servants are a bloody nightmare for politicians. Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister may have been satire, but they were also very insightful in how the civil service is very good at manipulating situations to make things work the way they want to rather than the way elected poltiicians want to. Putting in accusations like this might be legitimate, but can just as easily be about senior civil servants creating bad press for politicians they find inconvenient to get them out of their way.

Maybe. It depends on hard evidence. 

This was a clip for interest from a couple of days ago LYB.

 

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1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

It's my point - most of our old Brexiteers will have to learn to wipe each others bums in care home in due course - there won't be anybody else to help them or £10k/month (and yes we'll take your house and shirt off your back)!

Its really why the SM and freedom of movement was such an inspired idea - a win - win. Poorer EU countries with excess labour, people could find jobs in wealthier ones with shortages - solving labour problems in the wealthier and bringing the poorer countries up to the same standard (and then create new wealthier markets such as now in Poland). Add to that we are all Europeans with a similar cultural background (take a trip around Eastern Europe and see all the architectural remnants of the Austro-Hungarian empire). The 'soviet' era was simply a 100 year interruption.

I give it less than ten years now before we will be trying to 're-align / re-join in all but in name. The Brexiteers were just swimming against the tide nostalgic for a world of the mid 20th century that no longer exists.

I think the referendum was close enough to have been called a draw, and that the middle ground or compromise situation was seeking to join the EEA countries, like EFTA, then having a referendum on whether to join EFTA or similar on whatever the agreed terms were. 

There was a lot of middle ground to be found between the hard brexit we got and retaining the status quo. 

Economic migrants won't solve all of our issues though, there are Labour shortages in other western European countries, although I think that in agriculture and food production in particular we've scored a spectacular own goal, labour shortages on farms and food factories have hit supply and contributed to food price inflation. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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I expect CCHQ will be in contact to see when they want to be fast tracked into a safe seat (that's if there such a thing as a Tory safe seat these days).

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/nov/18/eton-college-apologises-after-allegations-pupils-jeered-visiting-state-schoolgirls

Eton College has apologised and “sanctioned” a number of pupils after allegations that a group of girls visiting from a nearby state school were subjected to misogynistic language, racial slurs and jeering.

 the students were booed inside the lecture theatre and were subjected to “racial slurs” and “generally misogynistic comments”

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1 hour ago, A Load of Squit said:

I expect CCHQ will be in contact to see when they want to be fast tracked into a safe seat (that's if there such a thing as a Tory safe seat these days).

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/nov/18/eton-college-apologises-after-allegations-pupils-jeered-visiting-state-schoolgirls

Eton College has apologised and “sanctioned” a number of pupils after allegations that a group of girls visiting from a nearby state school were subjected to misogynistic language, racial slurs and jeering.

 the students were booed inside the lecture theatre and were subjected to “racial slurs” and “generally misogynistic comments”

It was a speech by nigel farage too. The fact they invited him says everything about that horrible institution. Grim in every respect of the story.

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13 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I thought he scored ?

Maybe he was there and it was him who said the Europeans couldn’t wear their LGBT armbands and the fans their LGBT hats. Maybe it was also him booing the taking of the knee.

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16 hours ago, Van wink said:

Has BJ claimed credit for the England win yet?

Trump said the USA would have won if he was President. By at least three touchdowns.

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3 hours ago, Herman said:

Norwich MP Chloe Smith to stand down. 

I imagine that there will be fair few current Tory MPs who will prefer to step down rather than risk the total humiliation by ballot box that they so richly deserve.

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On 17/11/2022 at 16:45, sonyc said:

Maybe. It depends on hard evidence. 

This was a clip for interest from a couple of days ago LYB.

 

Maybe they deserved to be bullied.  If someone is on a vast salary and doing very little work and doing it badly (and my experience with various tax offices make it certain that some of the people at the top fit that category) then they need a rocket up their backside now and then.

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19 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

Maybe they deserved to be bullied.  If someone is on a vast salary and doing very little work and doing it badly (and my experience with various tax offices make it certain that some of the people at the top fit that category) then they need a rocket up their backside now and then.

There's an enormous difference between bullying and giving someone a bollocking.

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3 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I imagine that there will be fair few current Tory MPs who will prefer to step down rather than risk the total humiliation by ballot box that they so richly deserve.

William Wragg now too. 👍

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10 minutes ago, Herman said:

William Wragg now too. 👍

One of the very few Tories to express his contempt for Johnson's behaviour well before all the others decided to jump on the bandwagon. The Tory Party seems to be repeating the very same pattern established by the MAGA controlled GOP. Moderate and decent politicians either thrown out of the party or compelled to stand down because they can't in all conscience continue to support the repugnant path their party has chosen to follow. 

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4 hours ago, Herman said:

There's an enormous difference between bullying and giving someone a bollocking.

I agree.  And at least some of what that man was talking about sounded nearer to the latter than the former.

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11 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

I agree.  And at least some of what that man was talking about sounded nearer to the latter than the former.

Some people know of folk working in higher circles in government. Like the stories emerging during lockdown, bad behaviour and scandal does leak out, e.g. by their colleagues to give one example.

There's further claims now of bullying (reported last night). I guess we need to let the investigation take its course.

There is the saying "no smoke without fire" and it all feels to me strange as people don't make up stories about work lightly do they? Many actually transferred too when they heard the news of his return to the department.

Edited by sonyc

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