New Tory Leader

[Naturalcynic 631]

53 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Ironically, that was pretty much the argument made by those who argued against Johnson being pushed to resign. 

Yes, those people frothing at the mouth about whether or not cake was taken clearly didn’t think through the consequences of demanding resignations during a unique set of global crises.  Careful what you wish for.

[Herman 9,777]

4 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Yes, those people frothing at the mouth about whether or not cake was taken clearly didn’t think through the consequences of demanding resignations during a unique set of global crises.  Careful what you wish for.

I thought through it and am still glad the fat, useless wastrel has been booted out. The first step to getting rid of this clown car government.

[sonyc 5,526]

33 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Yes, those people frothing at the mouth about whether or not cake was taken clearly didn’t think through the consequences of demanding resignations during a unique set of global crises.  Careful what you wish for.

As if Johnson was ever capable of dealing with any matter competently whilst in power, let alone a "set of global crises". Most commentators, even from his own party, have repeatedly explained how this person was not fit for public office. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

28 minutes ago, sonyc said:

As if Johnson was ever capable of dealing with any matter competently whilst in power, let alone a "set of global crises". Most commentators, even from his own party, have repeatedly explained how this person was not fit for public office. 

He was the right person to see through withdrawal from the EU, because nobody else was bloody-minded enough for it. Vaccine acquisition was a success, as was his response in terms of supporting Ukraine, which was infinitely better than EUs half-hearted response. 

[Herman 9,777]

7 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

He was the right person to see through withdrawal from the EU, because nobody else was bloody-minded enough for it. Vaccine acquisition was a success, as was his response in terms of supporting Ukraine, which was infinitely better than EUs half-hearted response. 

He was right because he is the only one that could sell that bag o'****e and blatantly lie, with a smile on his face, doing it.

The vaccines was great because he gave a blank cheque to someone very competent. The opposite case was was T&T, where he gave a blank cheque to someone incompetent.

The Ukraine response was very good, although the response to helping Ukrainian refugees was rather haphazard, to put it politely. Some EU members played a blinder. Some EU members didn't.

 

[sonyc 5,526]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

He was the right person to see through withdrawal from the EU, because nobody else was bloody-minded enough for it. Vaccine acquisition was a success, as was his response in terms of supporting Ukraine, which was infinitely better than EUs half-hearted response. 

"In the country of the blind, a one eyed man is king" is one saying.

What was his response to Ukraine really? Ben Wallace has done the hard yards. Johnson just used Ukraine to make Churchill type shapes and for photo shoots to massage his own ego as well as to get away from the crises he has created at home.

As for Covid, the last 6 months governance on the matter (and most things to do with health) has been utterly lacking. No guidance but just to keep repeating that Covid is over. It isn't. The NHS hasn't recovered even from the first phase of the pandemic. Nursing staff have left, the ambulance service is at crisis point (last night a relative waited two hours to give a personal example), hospitals are partially left empty for fear of roof collapses. The list is longer. The vaccines were the result of the sterling work of Sarah Gilbert and the NHS volunteers. As well as the logistical skills of Kate Bingham. A woman who has since stated the government was so badly organised and reactive she wouldn't get involved again.

And as for Brexit...just what sh*t has Johnson left behind in his "bloody mindedness". He even wanted to reject part of the deal he argued for and triumphed over.

Nah...sorry, cannot find any good points for that SOB.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

1 minute ago, sonyc said:

"In the country of the blind, a one eyed man is king" is one saying.

What was his response to Ukraine really? Ben Wallace has done the hard yards. Johnson just used Ukraine to make Churchill type shapes and for photo shoots to massage his own ego as well as to get away from the crises he has created at home.

As for Covid, the last 6 months governance on the matter (and most things to do with health) has been utterly lacking. No guidance but just to keep repeating that Covid is over. It isn't. The NHS hasn't recovered even from the first phase of the pandemic. Nursing staff have left, the ambulance service is at crisis point (last night a relative waited two hours to give a personal example), hospitals are partially left empty for fear of roof collapses. The list is longer. The vaccines were the result of the sterling work of Sarah Gilbert and the NHS volunteers. As well as the logistical skills of Kate Bingham. A woman who has since stated the government was so badly organised and reactive she wouldn't get involved again.

And as for Brexit...just what sh*t has Johnson left behind in his "bloody mindedness". He even wanted to reject part of the deal he argued for and triumphed over.

Nah...sorry, cannot find any good points for that SOB.

 

If you get criticism for what goes wrong, you also get credit where it goes right. 

Ultimately his legacy will be defined on withdrawal from the EU, which will only be a known quanitity in 10 or so years time. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Lord Snooty Rees Mogg agrees with Truss that productivity is low and people need to work harder.

How else will the needy bosses be able to maintain their bonuses.

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by keelansgrandad

[sonyc 5,526]

3 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Ultimately his legacy will be defined on withdrawal from the EU,

Have to respectfully disagree LYB. It may be one aspect somewhere in the 'Johnson years' annals. But ...let's face it, Brexit isn't really 'done' is it? Nor was it ever "oven ready". 

Yet there may well be many other more significant entries, such as:

the era of the breaking up of public trust in democracy

the role he played as a catalyst for Irish reunification (there would be "no border in the Irish Sea" he promised...then he signed a treaty that provided one)

the break up of the union with Scotland might yet be an outcome

the corruption on an intergalactic scale (contracts for cronies)

a PM who misled  parliament

the betrayals to the public on levelling up,

the undermining his former boss Theresa May,

the all-time record number of MPs resigning from his government,

creating the conditions for the UK to be internationally derided

his responsibility for a brain drain of scientists despite his  commitments to the contrary.

He will be known also for supporting sex pests and bullies.

He will be known and remembered for a huge number of U Turns.

Those who've lost relatives to Covid won't ever forget his actions either.

Hence he has been someone booed everywhere.

There is much more that this chap will be remembered for and I reckon I haven't even touched the sides...just like the s**t currently pouring into the sea around our coasts.

"A malevolent and demonic force" is how one paper described him - only today.

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by sonyc

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

49 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Have to respectfully disagree LYB. It may be one aspect somewhere in the 'Johnson years' annals. But ...let's face it, Brexit isn't really 'done' is it? Nor was it ever "oven ready". 

Yet there may well be many other more significant entries, such as:

the era of the breaking up of public trust in democracy

the role he played as a catalyst for Irish reunification (there would be "no border in the Irish Sea" he promised...then he signed a treaty that provided one)

the break up of the union with Scotland might yet be an outcome

the corruption on an intergalactic scale (contracts for cronies)

a PM who misled  parliament

the betrayals to the public on levelling up,

the undermining his former boss Theresa May,

the all-time record number of MPs resigning from his government,

creating the conditions for the UK to be internationally derided

his responsibility for a brain drain of scientists despite his  commitments to the contrary.

He will be known also for supporting sex pests and bullies.

He will be known and remembered for a huge number of U Turns.

Those who've lost relatives to Covid won't ever forget his actions either.

Hence he has been someone booed everywhere.

There is much more that this chap will be remembered for and I reckon I haven't even touched the sides...just like the s**t currently pouring into the sea around our coasts.

"A malevolent and demonic force" is how one paper described him - only today.

 

Yup, don't agree on many many points, especially that the UK is 'internationally derided, which it simply isn't outside of EU circles (some are reasonable), but really not worth wasting time on. He has gone anyway, so really doesn't matter. As you say, for the moment, all there is is vacuum. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

What are the odd on a recall petition in his constituency if as seems likely he's found to have misled parliament ? Pretty good I think.

[Herman 9,777]

😀

 

[sonyc 5,526]

Fair enough LYB, my list was a stream of consciousness. My point was that his brief tenure will not ultimately or principally be remembered by the EU withdrawal. That is sugar coated. Like Cameron's legacy might be more about his austerity and setting up the referendum, Johnson's legacy will inevitably be around his lying. I cannot be neutral on this occasion or play a kind of devil's advocate. Worse still is he may return. Like Trump.

And @Herman that Express article today! As Kammy would say - Unbelievable Jeff. Seriously, nothing too much surprises with this lot of truth twisters. Like Johnson, they'll say anything to gaslight a nation. 

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

1 minute ago, sonyc said:

Fair enough LYB, my list was a stream of consciousness. My point was that his brief tenure will not ultimately or principally be remembered by the EU withdrawal. That is sugar coated. Like Cameron's legacy might be more about his austerity and setting up the referendum, Johnson's legacy will inevitably be around his lying. I cannot be neutral on this occasion or play a kind of devil's advocate. Worse still is he may return. Like Trump.

And @Herman that Express article today! As Kammy would say - Unbelievable Jeff. Seriously, nothing too much surprises with this lot of truth twisters. Like Johnson, they'll say anything to gaslight a nation. 

I think historians will just record Johnson as the nadir of recent British history. Truss won't even get a mention.

[sonyc 5,526]

20 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I think historians will just record Johnson as the nadir of recent British history. Truss won't even get a mention.

Amazing isn't it. Before Johnson (for me) Thatcher was the nadir. Plenty of others felt the same. Yet, even today she is lauded by many in her party. In Truss we watch someone taking voice lessons to sound like her and photo shoots and TV appearances to see her trying to look like her! Johnson's 'reign' was pure chaotic government. Literally, chaos. 

Edit .Ps. The point I didn't make is that it is only now that I can actually appreciate an aspect of Thatcher (let's just say she was a serious politician or that she was principled) in relation to how poor Johnson has been. And she was around when in my more socialist twenties and Johnson was about in my more moderate sixties (though there is an argument too that I'm more left now).

Edited August 22, 2022 by sonyc

[MooreMarriot 310]

10 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Lord Snooty Rees Mogg agrees with Truss that productivity is low and people need to work harder.

How else will the needy bosses be able to maintain their bonuses.

 

He could certainly work harder:

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by MooreMarriot

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

I think historians will just record Johnson as the nadir of recent British history. Truss won't even get a mention.

Historians don't usually get that wrapped up in that sort of trivial subjectivity. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

Amazing isn't it. Before Johnson (for me) Thatcher was the nadir. Plenty of others felt the same. Yet, even today she is lauded by many in her party. In Truss we watch someone taking voice lessons to sound like her and photo shoots and TV appearances to see her trying to look like her! Johnson's 'reign' was pure chaotic government. Literally, chaos. 

Edit .Ps. The point I didn't make is that it is only now that I can actually appreciate an aspect of Thatcher (let's just say she was a serious politician or that she was principled) in relation to how poor Johnson has been. And she was around when in my more socialist twenties and Johnson was about in my more moderate sixties (though there is an argument too that I'm more left now).

We are all revisionists at heart!

The thing about Thatcher as you note is that she held a consistent principled position (at it's heart was ruthless economic realities be that in creating the SM and placing the UK at the heart of Europe or closing the coal mines) - and her policies even if you didn't agree with them were self consistent. She did a lot of good in pruning away dead wood, taking the UK forward, but went too far to fast which of course was her undoing and lacking in empathy for those left behind.

All in all I actually don't think she'd recognize today's Tory party at all - it's some loony unthinking right wing unprincipled populist joke bereft of economic rigour or responsibility. As Gove rightly says - 'On holiday from reality'.

 

Just seen talking of the past -  "Former Thatcher policy chief accuses Truss of ‘complete loss of confidence’ in her economic plans"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2022/aug/22/liz-truss-economic-plan-cost-of-living-rishi-sunak-conservative-leadership-uk-politics-latest

Edited August 22, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

16 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

We are all revisionists at heart!

The thing about Thatcher as you note is that she held a consistent principled position (at it's heart was ruthless economic realities be that in creating the SM and placing the UK at the heart of Europe or closing the coal mines) - and her policies even if you didn't agree with them were self consistent. She did a lot of good in pruning away dead wood, taking the UK forward, but went too far to fast which of course was her undoing and lacking in empathy for those left behind.

All in all I actually don't think she'd recognize today's Tory party at all - it's some loony unthinking right wing unprincipled populist joke bereft of economic rigour or responsibility. As Gove rightly says - 'On holiday from reality'.

Agreed. Thatcher might have been the last visionary amongst our Prime Ministers even if we didn't necessarily agree with her vision. The rest have been middle managers of various levels of mediocracy or even inadequacy. Blair was strong domestically, but his absolutely shambolic stance on Hussein and blindly following Bush was his downfall, really.

The problem with Thatcher was that whilst she had a very clear vision in mind of what she wanted, her policy created the opposite. She hoped for a solid, property-owning/share-owning working class invested in their local communities with little debt. Financial deregulation ended up with living on the never-never as an acceptable way of life instead.

The Tory Party of the Thatcher years did still have something for the aspirational working class. The Tory Party of Johnson et al is the party of financial shysters, crooks, and frauds.

Edited August 22, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

😲

Jack Elsom

@JackElsom

·1h

If the price of beer had risen at the same rate as gas, a pint would now be £25… sobering stat from Octopus CEO Greg Jackson on Today

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Agreed. Thatcher might have been the last visionary amongst our Prime Ministers even if we didn't necessarily agree with her vision. The rest have been middle managers of various levels of mediocracy or even inadequacy. Blair was strong domestically, but his absolutely shambolic stance on Hussein and blindly following Bush was his downfall, really.

The problem with Thatcher was that whilst she had a very clear vision in mind of what she wanted, her policy created the opposite. She hoped for a solid, property-owning/share-owning working class invested in their local communities with little debt. Financial deregulation ended up with living on the never-never as an acceptable way of life instead.

The Tory Party of the Thatcher years did still have something for the aspirational working class. The Tory Party of Johnson et al is the party of financial shysters, crooks, and frauds.

Yes - I didn't agree with all that she did but it's churlish to suggest that she didn't do some good especially in her earlier years and was economically 'dry'. I think the key word you use though is 'aspirational'. This government seems to me only interested in vested backward looking nostalgic interests - it's done nothing for the young, young families, student loans and the like starting out. Rents and housing - let alone the new energy charges are making this country unlivable for many. If the country isn't being run for the benefit of the younger generations then it has no real future. 

If 'growth' as we all agree is the key to getting out of this financial mess then in in true Thatcherite style call a spade a spade and the very first item on the agenda to help growth should be to fix the loss of our EU exports and worker shortages - rejoining in some manner the SM and yes free movement. Treat the backward looking nostalgic protectionist Brexiteers exactly as per the 1980s nostalgic protectionist coal miners.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

What Thatcher couldn't understand that deregulation meant free for all in some areas. And free for all to many meant greed. With her reluctance for the state to interfere, apart from Unions, the Harry Enfield loadsamoney became rife and an anthem for the 80s.

Within 12 months of BT being privatised, 90% of the ownership was by large wealthy institutions. The people who bought shares originally undersold them thinking they were players, not knowing they had sold cheap.

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

2 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

What Thatcher couldn't understand that deregulation meant free for all in some areas. And free for all to many meant greed. With her reluctance for the state to interfere, apart from Unions, the Harry Enfield loadsamoney became rife and an anthem for the 80s.

Within 12 months of BT being privatised, 90% of the ownership was by large wealthy institutions. The people who bought shares originally undersold them thinking they were players, not knowing they had sold cheap.

There are lots I can say about the (lack) of industrial strategy and what's wrong with the UK.

For what it's worth I think the 'City' is both a blessing and a curse. The so called 'big bang' made easy-money for many but has completely lop-sided our economy unlike say the much more successful Germans (or China!) who champion manufacturers - even the US.

To put our problem in perspective - I was once told in the 80s about 50% of electronic engineering graduates instead of going into industry went into the city at the time (same underlying skills needed). How many of our MPs let alone ministers have a background in manufacturing as opposed to making money out of money? Not many. No wonder we are today led by donkeys (Thatcher was of course science based - I think she even made better ice cream).

As my father used to say - our economy is based upon us taking in our own washing. Little real added value.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

15 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

There are lots I can say about the (lack) of industrial strategy and what's wrong with the UK.

For what it's worth I think the 'City' is both a blessing and a curse. The so called 'big bang' made easy-money for many but has completely lop-sided our economy unlike say the much more successful Germans (or China!) who champion manufacturers - even the US.

To put our problem in perspective - I was once told in the 80s about 50% of electronic engineering graduates instead of going into industry went into the city at the time (same underlying skills needed). How many of our MPs let alone ministers have a background in manufacturing as opposed to making money out of money? Not many. No wonder we are today led by donkeys (Thatcher was of course science based - I think she even made better ice cream).

As my father used to say - our economy is based upon us taking in our own washing. Little real added value.

She didn't, she was an industrial chemist by education. She did work in a team that worked on keeping ice cream soft, but soft-scoop ice cream was already in circulation by then.

The Margaret Thatcher Soft-Serve Myth | The New Yorker

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

36 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

She didn't, she was an industrial chemist by education. She did work in a team that worked on keeping ice cream soft, but soft-scoop ice cream was already in circulation by then.

The Margaret Thatcher Soft-Serve Myth | The New Yorker

Cheers - the greater fact though is she had a scientific training so had to deal with uncomfortable truths unlike the current lot.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

As my father used to say - our economy is based upon us taking in our own washing. Little real added value.

I've never heard it put that way before but IMO your father was spot on. 😀

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

42 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Yes, those people frothing at the mouth about whether or not cake was taken clearly didn’t think through the consequences of demanding resignations during a unique set of global crises.  Careful what you wish for.

Cake was never really the issue, there were multiple and far more egregious law breaking events than that one but the fundamental point about all of them is that Johnson lied repeatedly both to the House of Commons and to the public.

The public, of course, were well used to that but the House of Commons not so much - there were multiple clear breaches of the ministerial code, each one of them a resigning matter. Any Prime Minister with an iota of integrity would have resigned in that situation, rather than wait until 50% of his Government and almost all his backbench MPs told him they no longer trusted him to lead the party or the country.

The only strange thing in all this is why it took so long for them to reach this conclusion - I guess the dawning realisation for many of them, after the Tories were smashed in the Council Elections and several by-elections, that they were going to lose their jobs in a couple of years time might have been a factor 😂

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

6 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I've never heard it put that way before but IMO your father was spot on. 😀

"Taking in each others washing" I think is a very old idiom for creating little economic wealth. It kind of sums up our (internal) service sector - just spins money around but doesn't really create anything new. 

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

1 minute ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Cake was never really the issue, there were multiple and far more egregious law breaking events than that one but the fundamental point about all of them is that Johnson lied repeatedly both to the House of Commons and to the public.

The public, of course, were well used to that but the House of Commons not so much - there were multiple clear breaches of the ministerial code, each one of them a resigning matter. Any Prime Minister with an iota of integrity would have resigned in that situation, rather than wait until 50% of his Government and almost all his backbench MPs told him they no longer trusted him to lead the party or the country.

The only strange thing in all this is why it took so long for them to reach this conclusion - I guess the dawning realisation for many of them, after the Tories were smashed in the Council Elections and several by-elections, that they were going to lose their jobs in a couple of years time might have been a factor 😂

The even more worrying thing given some polling is why a large number of Tory party members still want Johnson. Seems they have no moral/ethics/values either!

[sonyc 5,526]

Parris I think nails it again, as he did with Johnson. Worth the read as a glimpse into what is going to happen. That last paragraph too😅 very funny if not so serious - "a huge effort to contain an unstable PM".