New Tory Leader

[1902 1,167]

12 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

I agree, and it’s an indictment of where we are politically that we obsess about things like the “war on woke”, the fact that we’ve even allowed woke to become such an all pervasive dogma, whether Starmer was late in entering things on the appropriate register, whether Sunak’s wife had non-dom status, whether Johnson ate a piece of cake, whether Starmer had beer with his curry, whether Nadine Dorries shared a satirical image of Brutus stabbing Julius Caesar etc etc.  Everything has been dumbed down to an appallingly low level and those who claim outrage at such things are just as much to blame as the media that publish them.

Which is why the standards in public life that have declined since the 90s matter and why the Johnson era was the nadir of politics. Unfortunately, as standards slip, the more the focus becomes on personal behaviour and the less on real issues.

As for wokeness, I really don't think it's all pervasive. It's a cultural attitude that, even if we can define it, spans a huge range of views. The other thing I don't believe is that it is an issue for government. I don't understand why ministers feel the need to wade into a conversation about taking the knee for example. That's for individuals in private society to sort out, it's just not a relevant issue for the state.

[horsefly 4,287]

1 hour ago, Badger said:

There is nothing to stop you doing that now, with or without PR.

Indeed! That's why I just said I would.

[Naturalcynic 628]

18 minutes ago, 1902 said:

Which is why the standards in public life that have declined since the 90s matter and why the Johnson era was the nadir of politics. Unfortunately, as standards slip, the more the focus becomes on personal behaviour and the less on real issues.

As for wokeness, I really don't think it's all pervasive. It's a cultural attitude that, even if we can define it, spans a huge range of views. The other thing I don't believe is that it is an issue for government. I don't understand why ministers feel the need to wade into a conversation about taking the knee for example. That's for individuals in private society to sort out, it's just not a relevant issue for the state.

I don’t know whether standards have dropped, or whether in the internet age it’s harder to sweep minor indiscretions under the carpet.  As a society we’ve become increasingly censorious and intolerant, and offence archaeology has become a way of life for many activists and journalists.

Clearly there are certain aspects of “woke” to which the Government would need to have an input (e.g. biological males in women’s prisons, the appropriateness of medical intervention for young children in alleged gender dysphoria etc), but as this is a thread about the next Tory leader, we’d better not derail it by turning it into yet another discussion about the various motivations for taking a knee.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Naturalcynic

[1902 1,167]

Just now, Naturalcynic said:

Clearly there are certain aspects of “woke” to which the Government would need to have an input (e.g. biological males in women’s prisons, the appropriateness of medical intervention for young children in alleged gender dysphoria etc), but as this is a thread about the next Tory leader, we’d better not derail it by turning it into yet another discussion about the various motivations for taking a knee.

Probably wise.

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

1 hour ago, duke63 said:

But the right wing media can be blamed for that.

They publish lies and defamation about every Labour leader and the people who buy the toilet paper that is the Telegraph, Mail and Express believe it.

If any Labour PM had lied so many times as Johnson and his cronies have, those same rags would have had it as front page news every day.

I think the so called 'Beergate' is a typical example.

We had industrial partying at No. 10 every night it seemed - yet the above papers choose to try and whip up a pathetic whataboutery story on what to any rational person was simply refreshments on a working trip. There simply was no comparison.

Add to that earlier comments such as such 'enemies of the people' and frankly all the above papers should be ashamed - but then they have no ethics either it seems. Yes in many ways these papers that try to mislead are the very real enemies of the people.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

As much as that is true, it was also true of the 2009 financial crisis but that doesn't stop the Tory party blaming Labour for that.. even now.

A phenomenon that highlights the underlying dishonesty, hypocrisy, and double standards that are normalised by party politics. 

[Naturalcynic 628]

27 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I think the so called 'Beergate' is a typical example.

We had industrial partying at No. 10 every night it seemed - yet the above papers choose to try and whip up a pathetic whataboutery story on what to any rational person was simply refreshments on a working trip. There simply was no comparison.

Add to that earlier comments such as such 'enemies of the people' and frankly all the above papers should be ashamed - but then they have no ethics either it seems. Yes in many ways these papers that try to mislead are the very real enemies of the people.

As I said earlier, the MSM has been absolutely full of allegations about lockdown breaches in the offices of No. 10, so it’s a bit disingenuous to claim that it’s only Labour that gets treated in this way.  

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

2 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

As I said earlier, the MSM has been absolutely full of allegations about lockdown breaches in the offices of No. 10, so it’s a bit disingenuous to claim that it’s only Labour that gets treated in this way.  

I don't  - 'Beergate' was simply an invention of the right wing papers trying to defend their own. The Police had quite rightly looked at it first time briefly, and rightly dismissed it.

[duke63 541]

Sunak’s wife having non dom status is entirely in the public interest. Voters have a right to know she paid £30k to HMRC to avoid having to pay UK tax on her foreign earnings even though she lives here full time and her husband is in charge of the Treasury. An absolute conflict of interest. 

[duke63 541]

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

18 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I don't  - 'Beergate' was simply an invention of the right wing papers trying to defend their own. The Police had quite rightly looked at it first time briefly, and rightly dismissed it.

It definitely wasn't an invention; the picture of him drinking a beer in an office was completely legitimate and asking questions about it was fair in the circumstances. The fact is it was investigated and it was deemed that it was okay, so all's good, but that doesn't make asking the questions in any way unreasonable. 

You can accuse the likes of the Mail and Telegraph of highlighting stuff that suits the narratives preferred by their readers, and it's a fair observation, but that's every bit as true of the likes of the Guardian, Mirror, etc. 

It's easy to say the police had 'quite rightly' dismissed it, but then again the Met had originally dismissed demands to investigate claims regarding Downing Street retrospectively, to choruses accusing them of being corrupt. 

Edited August 5, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[duke63 541]

Which shows that the Met is also corrupt and in the pocket of their political masters as once they did properly investigate it they found there was a case to answer and subsequently prosecuted quite a few. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

3 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

I resigned (or to be truthful didn’t renew) my membership last year when it was becoming clear just how much of a mess Johnson et al were creating and how embarrassing it was becoming.  As someone from the centre ground I’ve voted Labour in the past throughout the Blair years, and possibly could have done so again if David Miliband had become leader instead of “Red” Ed.  Now?  Well, currently there are no opposition parties I could vote for: Starmer would need to do a lot more clearing out of the Momentum tendency before they’d be credible; Libdems have resumed their long-held position of a left-wing party that criticises but says little that’s constructive; and the Greens are a party of protest.  In last night’s debate I thought Sunak came across far better than Truss, but whoever wins you can guarantee that the opposition and MSM will try to find sticks to beat them with rather than discussing policy, because sadly that seems to be the trivial level to which politics has sunk in the internet age.

As long as Momentum do not dominate I believe that Starmer needs the far left to keep him progressing. I cannot envisage a Labour Party that resembles a Stepford Wives one. And I do not want a UK that is left with no alternatives. As I resigned shortly after it became clear that Starmer was too centre for me, I am likely to vote for the Green Party depending on what their manifesto may be in two years time.

I am moving towards a different lifestyle and outlook. Mrs KG are considering going vegetarian, I am convinced about climate change and apart from football and golf, more likely to pursue leisure that is more akin to nature than thrills.

We are pussyfooting our way around this century and nothing is being done in reality. Greed is still the main priority for governments and companies and the moves toward change are not accelerating at all. My mate is in Planning at Cornwall Council and the stories he tells me about what is still being refused because it would upset the mainstream is unbelievable. Ga Ga.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

5 minutes ago, duke63 said:

Which shows that the Met is also corrupt and in the pocket of their political masters as once they did properly investigate it they found there was a case to answer and subsequently prosecuted quite a few. 

No, it doesn't show it at all; the policy was already set with regard to treatment of the public regarding infractions that retrospective investigation was not warranted; deciding not to investigate retrospectively was consistent with that principle and the principle only changed subsequently because of political pressure to do so. What the investigation subsequently led to is neither here nor there, because that was a result of investigation that could never be part of whether a decision was made to investigate in the first place. 

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It definitely wasn't an invention; the picture of him drinking a beer in an office was completely legitimate and asking questions about it was fair in the circumstances. The fact is it was investigated and it was deemed that it was okay, so all's good, but that doesn't make asking the questions in any way unreasonable. 

You can accuse the likes of the Mail and Telegraph of highlighting stuff that suits the narratives preferred by their readers, and it's a fair observation, but that's every bit as true of the likes of the Guardian, Mirror, etc. 

It's easy to say the police had 'quite rightly' dismissed it, but then again the Met had originally dismissed demands to investigate claims regarding Downing Street retrospectively, to choruses accusing them of being corrupt. 

These right wing comics momentarily tried to achieve by their gross over-indulgence of the Beergate story a totally false equivalence between the dire antics of Johnson and his disreputable cabal and the Starmer refreshments. There really isn't any more that can be said.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[duke63 541]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

No, it doesn't show it at all; the policy was already set with regard to treatment of the public regarding infractions that retrospective investigation was not warranted; deciding not to investigate retrospectively was consistent with that principle and the principle only changed subsequently because of political pressure to do so. What the investigation subsequently led to is neither here nor there, because that was a result of investigation that could never be part of whether a decision was made to investigate in the first place. 

 

If those who make the laws do not abide by those same laws then why should we take any notice of anything they pass through Parliament? 
Those laws were made to protect the vulnerable of this Country, the idiot in charge decided they didn’t include him and his cronies. 
 

In a just society he and the others at the parties would have been sacked, not fined £50. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It definitely wasn't an invention; the picture of him drinking a beer in an office was completely legitimate and asking questions about it was fair in the circumstances. The fact is it was investigated and it was deemed that it was okay, so all's good, but that doesn't make asking the questions in any way unreasonable. 

You can accuse the likes of the Mail and Telegraph of highlighting stuff that suits the narratives preferred by their readers, and it's a fair observation, but that's every bit as true of the likes of the Guardian, Mirror, etc. 

It's easy to say the police had 'quite rightly' dismissed it, but then again the Met had originally dismissed demands to investigate claims regarding Downing Street retrospectively, to choruses accusing them of being corrupt. 

The real difference was the right wing tabloids were trying to use some quid pro quo attempt. They just wanted to say that Johnson was OK doing it because Starmer did.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Only an empty chair on GMTV this morning as Minister for Whatever was too busy to face questions about the predictions for inflation and the rise in interest rates.

It was obviously Gordon Brown's fault.

[Naturalcynic 628]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

As long as Momentum do not dominate I believe that Starmer needs the far left to keep him progressing. I cannot envisage a Labour Party that resembles a Stepford Wives one. And I do not want a UK that is left with no alternatives. As I resigned shortly after it became clear that Starmer was too centre for me, I am likely to vote for the Green Party depending on what their manifesto may be in two years time.

I am moving towards a different lifestyle and outlook. Mrs KG are considering going vegetarian, I am convinced about climate change and apart from football and golf, more likely to pursue leisure that is more akin to nature than thrills.

We are pussyfooting our way around this century and nothing is being done in reality. Greed is still the main priority for governments and companies and the moves toward change are not accelerating at all. My mate is in Planning at Cornwall Council and the stories he tells me about what is still being refused because it would upset the mainstream is unbelievable. Ga Ga.

Whether we admit it to ourselves or not, greed is a prime motivator for most people, whether that’s wanting a nicer house, a new car, the current iPhone, going on another holiday, or eating more than is good for us.  Considering going vegetarian won’t help, but actually doing it might.  

As for golf, think of the pesticides, herbicides, fertilisers etc that are used, not to mention the vast amount of water wasted in irrigating the greens and tees.  Frankly not green at all, and I say that as a fellow golfer, but then again neither is football if you consider the fossil fuels burned by 27,000 people travelling to and from the ground every week.

[Naturalcynic 628]

37 minutes ago, duke63 said:

If those who make the laws do not abide by those same laws then why should we take any notice of anything they pass through Parliament? 
Those laws were made to protect the vulnerable of this Country, the idiot in charge decided they didn’t include him and his cronies. 
 

In a just society he and the others at the parties would have been sacked, not fined £50. 

And Starmer for not entering those financial transactions on the register within the stipulated timeframe?  You see, it’s all a bit trivial and rather pathetic.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Naturalcynic

[duke63 541]

47 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

And Starmer for not entering those financial transactions on the register within the stipulated timeframe?  You see, it’s all a bit trivial and rather pathetic.

Only trivial and pathetic if you are happy that the Country is up ****creek due to the corruption and lies and double standards of those in charge.

The UK political system is bankrupt and needs a cleansweep and a new start.

Its not democracy at all.

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

Whether we admit it to ourselves or not, greed is a prime motivator for most people, whether that’s wanting a nicer house, a new car, the current iPhone, going on another holiday, or eating more than is good for us.  Considering going vegetarian won’t help, but actually doing it might.  

As for golf, think of the pesticides, herbicides, fertilisers etc that are used, not to mention the vast amount of water wasted in irrigating the greens and tees.  Frankly not green at all, and I say that as a fellow golfer, but then again neither is football if you consider the fossil fuels burned by 27,000 people travelling to and from the ground every week.

Our course is pretty green as far as things go. Solar panels provide the electric, all of the course maintenance is pretty natural and apart from the gang mower, there is no fuels involved. No sprinkler system so its left to nature to water. The bar probably does more harm than any other part of the course.

Football is of course very guilty. But we can sustain certain enterprises as long as we keep them in check. Green isn't just eating berries and living in a cave😀

[Naturalcynic 628]

34 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Our course is pretty green as far as things go. Solar panels provide the electric, all of the course maintenance is pretty natural and apart from the gang mower, there is no fuels involved. No sprinkler system so its left to nature to water. The bar probably does more harm than any other part of the course.

Football is of course very guilty. But we can sustain certain enterprises as long as we keep them in check. Green isn't just eating berries and living in a cave😀

No irrigation for the greens?  Unless you live in the north-west where there’s been at least some rain since April, they must be absolutely parched.

[Herman 9,713]

I see that Sunak has said the quiet bit out loud again. Chump. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

34 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

No irrigation for the greens?  Unless you live in the north-west where there’s been at least some rain since April, they must be absolutely parched.

They certainly are. Luckily the course is close to the coast and often there is an overnight and early morning dew to help. Putting is my strong point and with the greens left longer, I am coping better than many with the variations in pace. If they cut the greens too short our stimp meter would be like an RPG.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

Has anybody shared this yet? 

Got some grief for saying I was voting Truss, and whilst I'm still abstaining, if a vote was obligatory I'd still be sending mine her way.

[Herman 9,713]

Pork barrel versus pork markets. What a choice.😬

[A Load of Squit 5,128]

7 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

I don’t know whether standards have dropped, or whether in the internet age it’s harder to sweep minor indiscretions under the carpet.  As a society we’ve become increasingly censorious and intolerant, and offence archaeology has become a way of life for many activists and journalists.

Clearly there are certain aspects of “woke” to which the Government would need to have an input (e.g. biological males in women’s prisons, the appropriateness of medical intervention for young children in alleged gender dysphoria etc), but as this is a thread about the next Tory leader, we’d better not derail it by turning it into yet another discussion about the various motivations for taking a knee.

Nothing to do with the term 'woke', if the Government were capable of making decent policy then they wouldn't have to blame everything on a culture war.

 

[Naturalcynic 628]

36 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

Nothing to do with the term 'woke', if the Government were capable of making decent policy then they wouldn't have to blame everything on a culture war.

 

Deny it if you want, but it’s totally wrapped up in the prevailing woke culture.

[horsefly 4,287]

5 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

And Starmer for not entering those financial transactions on the register within the stipulated timeframe?  You see, it’s all a bit trivial and rather pathetic.

So you want to claim there is an equivalence between the repetitive breaking of the country's law in ten Downing Street and what the person investigating Starmer's breaches (Kathryn Stone) described as, "minor and/or inadvertent", and "there was no attempt to mislead". Pathetic indeed!