New Tory Leader

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

3 minutes ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

In my opinion, it goes back further than 25 years 

The 1970's oil crisis should have been a wake up call 

Completely agree, lets hope this crisis does lead to some serious investment this time (when out of the woods).

I don't care how they do it,  and there are various options, but we need to both:

1). Import less of our energy

2). Begin to move away from a reliance on gas to heat our homes

[1902 1,167]

6 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Completely agree, lets hope this crisis does lead to some serious investment this time (when out of the woods).

I don't care how they do it,  and there are various options, but we need to both:

1). Import less of our energy

2). Begin to move away from a reliance on gas to heat our homes

Agreed, and the heating element is a massive one that needs some serious investment to sort out. Heat pumps should have been government mandated for new builds but insulation standards would have had to increase.

As for nuclear, I'm not anti nuclear per se, it's an option and I'm very comfortable with Hinkley point and Sizewell going ahead. However it's very expensive and takes a long time to build plus the decommissioning is a horror show. However I'd rather see that than new gas.

My biggest frustration is the restrictions on onshore wind and the rejection of the Swansea tidal lagoon on cost grounds. Sure, the tidal lagoon was not cheap, but it would have been a prototype which if successful could have been rolled out across a number of locations in the West of England and Scotland. 

More importantly it's predictable, low carbon and ours.

Generally though, the biggest failure throughout Europe has been the inability of people on this side of the Atlantic to regard energy as a national security issue and not just an economic and ecological issue. We are realising it now I suppose.

[Herman 9,717]

29 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I was talking about the state of the country yesterday with a Green Party politician and a Lib Dem activist over a few beers. 

Brexit was mentioned of course, but we all agreed unanimously that we've sleep walked into this energy crisis and that both the 13 years of Labour government and 12 years of Tory government can be blamed for failing to ensure national energy security. 

Of course, we didn't unanimously agree that nuclear is the answer... the Green was less keen on that as a solution.

I wouldn't even say we've sleep walked into it and more have willfully walked into it thanks to weak politicians, lobbyists for extremely wealthy clients, nimbys and paid shills in our press. The people have been gaslit into believing that climate change isn't actually happening which also clouded our need for more self-sufficient forms of energy.

[horsefly 4,287]

31 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I also find it depressing that the country has had no strong opposition for over a decade. Only, the Tory party can't be blamed for that.

Even under Kier Starmer it has been left to Piers Morgan, Deborah Meaden, Marcus Rashford, Martin Lewis et al who ask the difficult questions and shine a light on the worst excesses of the Tory Party.

12 years your party has had to get its sh*t in order and present something half electable, still not entirely convinced that you've cobbled it together.

Trust me you're no more depressed than me that the Labour Party membership elected Ed Miliband rather than his far more talented brother, then followed that up with the completely disastrous election of Corbyn. That the Labour Party is even close to being electable again so soon is actually quite remarkable. Starmer doesn't have the luxury of sounding off on single issues in the way the people you highlight have. Do you honestly believe that someone like Morgan would last beyond a couple of weeks trying to marshal something as difficult as the Labour Party? Starmer inherited an utter mess, that he has managed to turn into into the more disciplined and ordered unit of present  is really quite some achievement (It's worth listening to the splendidly maverick Jess Philips with regard to how much Labour has improved upon Starmer's accession). Also it was "lucky" for Labour that the Tory Party decided to sacrifice the interests of the country in order to elect their favourite son, who we all knew had a long history of lying and corruption. Just a massive shame that the country has had to suffer so much from Johnson's degenerate reign.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

8 minutes ago, 1902 said:

Agreed, and the heating element is a massive one that needs some serious investment to sort out. Heat pumps should have been government mandated for new builds but insulation standards would have had to increase.

There is also battery technology which is coming along, and gigafactory's being built.

If 'powerwalls' or similar become more commonplace in homes then electricity can be distributed more evenly throughout a 24 hour period, e.g. when most people are asleep, then consumed during the day. Some people already buy off-peak electricity and sell it back to the grid during the day for a profit. 

At the moment those huge batteries are primarily used by people with solar panels so they can consume the electricity rather than sell it back to the grid, but they have potential uses beyond home generated renewable energy, could just be used as a way of avoiding high demand peaks / surges.

So more electric heating (people think about those dreadful old economy seven 70s storage heaters when you talk about this), but electric heaters have come a long way.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

10 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Do you honestly believe that someone like Morgan would last beyond a couple of weeks trying to marshal something as difficult as the Labour Party?

Of course not, he's in my top 50 list of prize British bell ends.

You'd be surprised how many dyed in the wool Tory's are sick of their own party, unfortunately in many associations this meant huge splits and lots of the more moderate and pragmatic (or just decent and upstanding) people leaving. The types of people leaving are those who were ashamed of the likes of Cummings and Johnson seizing power of the party, unfortunately that means those people can't help shape the party at this time. 

Many of them, myself included, will be lending votes to the Lib Dems and hoping that a General Election results in the Tory party being sent a wake up call and ending the careers of a few of those who have propped up Johnson's cabinets. 

Truss lost my vote by the way, I'm abstaining now, then resigning my party membership and lending my vote to the Lib Dems in the next general election as long as they field somebody with a pulse in my constituency. I might explain how she lost my vote when I can be bothered.

Edited August 4, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

Watched the debate on Sky tonight. Yes I'm not a Tory but I thought Sunak was head and shoulders the grown up as opposed to Truss the toddler let loose in sweet shop.

[horsefly 4,287]

1 minute ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Of course not, he's in my top 50 list of prize British bell ends.

You'd be surprised how many dyed in the wool Tory's are sick of their own party, unfortunately in many associations this meant huge splits and lots of people leaving. The types of people leaving are those who were ashamed of the likes of Cummings and Johnson seizing power of the party, unfortunately that means those people can't help shape the party. 

Many of them, myself included, will be lending votes to the Lib Dems and hoping that a General Election results in the Tory party being sent a wake up call and ending the careers of a few of those who have propped up Johnson's cabinets.

Truss lost my vote by the way, I'm abstaining now, then resigning my party membership and lending my vote to the Lib Dems in the next general election as long as they field somebody with a pulse in my constituency.

Indeed! The Tory Party lurched to the right to steal votes from UKIP in the red wall seats. The strategy worked, but it seems the price paid will show it to be very much a pyrrhic victory. Constituency memberships became flooded with Ukippers intent on pushing for a hard Brexit and far right policies. It seems traditional "one-nation" Tories have become a very rare breed. It's pretty much the the flip side of the coin that saw Labour Party constituencies become dominated by Corbynites (Momentum). 

I appreciate your honesty in describing your current political position. For the sake of the country I hope that many people follow suit and vote tactically at the next GE. I will happily vote LibDem if that is the necessary means to rid South Norfolk of one of the most laziest and ineffectual MPs in existence. The country has reached it's nadir with Johnson's exploitation of the FPTP system to serve corrupt ends that have threatened the very foundation of our democratic parliamentary system. Never has there been a stronger case for a radical transformation of our political and electoral system, and that has to begin with some form of PR to ensure a fairer representation of the political views of the entire electorate. I hope the next GE result makes that change inevitable.

[canarydan23 4,060]

15 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I hope the next GE result makes that change inevitable.

Forlorn hope.

The Tories will never go for it, and Keir Starmer has cojones like ball-bearings, he'd never go for PR even if he did believe in it.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

17 minutes ago, horsefly said:

It seems traditional "one-nation" Tories have become a very rare breed. It's pretty much the the flip side of the coin that saw Labour Party constituencies become dominated by Corbynites (Momentum). 

Exactly.

Most of those who I know that have left the party in the past few years would have preferred Ben Wallace, who could be described as 'one nation', although I did cringe when he came out in support of Liz Truss only when it became clear she was the certain winner.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Of course not, he's in my top 50 list of prize British bell ends.

You'd be surprised how many dyed in the wool Tory's are sick of their own party, unfortunately in many associations this meant huge splits and lots of the more moderate and pragmatic (or just decent and upstanding) people leaving. The types of people leaving are those who were ashamed of the likes of Cummings and Johnson seizing power of the party, unfortunately that means those people can't help shape the party at this time. 

Many of them, myself included, will be lending votes to the Lib Dems and hoping that a General Election results in the Tory party being sent a wake up call and ending the careers of a few of those who have propped up Johnson's cabinets. 

Truss lost my vote by the way, I'm abstaining now, then resigning my party membership and lending my vote to the Lib Dems in the next general election as long as they field somebody with a pulse in my constituency. I might explain how she lost my vote when I can be bothered.

Yep, can't blame you. I've already said before I moved away when the likes of Stewart and Grieve were purged. No matter, this current set are not fit for purpose.

This is the end game of an electoral model that is not fit for purpose either as it's been gamed and fiddled beyond repair.

Tactical voting, by definition, is a sign that the electoral model in use is failing badly, and the more prevalent it is, the greater the failure.

Edited August 4, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[horsefly 4,287]

33 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Exactly.

Most of those who I know that have left the party in the past few years would have preferred Ben Wallace, who could be described as 'one nation', although I did cringe when he came out in support of Liz Truss only when it became clear she was the certain winner.

Yep! My money is on Wallace becoming the next foreign secretary. It's vomit inducing watching the Tory "elite" suddenly decide they support Truss now that the polls all show her romping home in the constituencies. I can see Tugendhat getting defence, and Zahawi continuing as chancellor. Interestingly, I don't think Patel has come out in support yet, so I'm wondering if her and Truss don't get on. I could see Mordaunt or Sajid getting Home Secretary if that's the case. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

42 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Interestingly, I don't think Patel has come out in support yet, so I'm wondering if her and Truss don't get on.

Probably already preparing her campaign for the next Tory leadership election, sometime soon after Truss delivers a terrible GE result.

[Naturalcynic 629]

10 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Of course not, he's in my top 50 list of prize British bell ends.

You'd be surprised how many dyed in the wool Tory's are sick of their own party, unfortunately in many associations this meant huge splits and lots of the more moderate and pragmatic (or just decent and upstanding) people leaving. The types of people leaving are those who were ashamed of the likes of Cummings and Johnson seizing power of the party, unfortunately that means those people can't help shape the party at this time. 

Many of them, myself included, will be lending votes to the Lib Dems and hoping that a General Election results in the Tory party being sent a wake up call and ending the careers of a few of those who have propped up Johnson's cabinets. 

Truss lost my vote by the way, I'm abstaining now, then resigning my party membership and lending my vote to the Lib Dems in the next general election as long as they field somebody with a pulse in my constituency. I might explain how she lost my vote when I can be bothered.

I resigned (or to be truthful didn’t renew) my membership last year when it was becoming clear just how much of a mess Johnson et al were creating and how embarrassing it was becoming.  As someone from the centre ground I’ve voted Labour in the past throughout the Blair years, and possibly could have done so again if David Miliband had become leader instead of “Red” Ed.  Now?  Well, currently there are no opposition parties I could vote for: Starmer would need to do a lot more clearing out of the Momentum tendency before they’d be credible; Libdems have resumed their long-held position of a left-wing party that criticises but says little that’s constructive; and the Greens are a party of protest.  In last night’s debate I thought Sunak came across far better than Truss, but whoever wins you can guarantee that the opposition and MSM will try to find sticks to beat them with rather than discussing policy, because sadly that seems to be the trivial level to which politics has sunk in the internet age.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Naturalcynic

[duke63 541]

11 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I also find it depressing that the country has had no strong opposition for over a decade. Only, the Tory party can't be blamed for that.

Even under Kier Starmer it has been left to Piers Morgan, Deborah Meaden, Marcus Rashford, Martin Lewis et al who ask the difficult questions and shine a light on the worst excesses of the Tory Party.

12 years your party has had to get its sh*t in order and present something half electable, still not entirely convinced that you've cobbled it together.

But the right wing media can be blamed for that.

They publish lies and defamation about every Labour leader and the people who buy the toilet paper that is the Telegraph, Mail and Express believe it.

If any Labour PM had lied so many times as Johnson and his cronies have, those same rags would have had it as front page news every day.

[duke63 541]

This is what 12 years of Tory rule brings.

13% inflation, interest rates to hit 3%, a 15 month recession, energy bills out of control.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-62430545

[Naturalcynic 629]

9 minutes ago, duke63 said:

But the right wing media can be blamed for that.

They publish lies and defamation about every Labour leader and the people who buy the toilet paper that is the Telegraph, Mail and Express believe it.

If any Labour PM had lied so many times as Johnson and his cronies have, those same rags would have had it as front page news every day.

They did have it as their front page news every day. It’s all they ever did, and they will do again whether it’s Sunak or Truss that takes over.  Like the BBC, if both left and right feel that the print and broadcast media are biased against them then they must be getting it about right.

[Naturalcynic 629]

Just now, duke63 said:

This is what 12 years of Tory rule brings.

13% inflation, interest rates to hit 3%, a 15 month recession, energy bills out of control.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-62430545

12 years of Tory rule, but Putin’s invasion has caused massive increases in fuel costs globally with knock-on effects on production of pretty much everything including food.  The cost of imposing sanctions is huge, and that is superimposed on the impact of the pandemic, the effects of which we tried to mitigate by largely shutting down the economy for two years.  So, yes, the Conservatives have been in power and in many ways not made a very good job of it, but the serious economic issues we’re now facing are worldwide and really can’t be blamed solely on the UK Government.

[Badger 2,405]

10 hours ago, horsefly said:

I will happily vote LibDem if that is the necessary means to rid South Norfolk of one of the most laziest and ineffectual MPs in existence.

There is nothing to stop you doing that now, with or without PR.

[duke63 541]

8 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

12 years of Tory rule, but Putin’s invasion has caused massive increases in fuel costs globally with knock-on effects on production of pretty much everything including food.  The cost of imposing sanctions is huge, and that is superimposed on the impact of the pandemic, the effects of which we tried to mitigate by largely shutting down the economy for two years.  So, yes, the Conservatives have been in power and in many ways not made a very good job of it, but the serious economic issues we’re now facing are worldwide and really can’t be blamed solely on the UK Government.

But Britain is forecast to come off worst of all according to the FT and many other economic sources.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

24 minutes ago, duke63 said:

But the right wing media can be blamed for that.

They publish lies and defamation about every Labour leader and the people who buy the toilet paper that is the Telegraph, Mail and Express believe it.

Its too much of a cop out to just blame the print press in the year 2022, not least because most of them are dying. A slow death, but dying nonetheless. 

I mean, the Telegraph is all behind a paywall for a start,  but the Daily Express has a circulation of just 321k, down from 771k when Labour last won an election, and the Daily Mail just 1.2m, down from 2.3m when Labour last won an election. The Telegraph down from 911k to 360k.

Social Media has appeared in that time of course, and people read stuff online.

If it is the "right wing press" which is to blame, how do you explain the SNP winning Scotland, that's the biggest problem facing Labour, its the primary reason they are likely to rely entirely on coalition governments going forward. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

11 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

12 years of Tory rule, but Putin’s invasion has caused massive increases in fuel costs globally with knock-on effects on production of pretty much everything including food.  The cost of imposing sanctions is huge, and that is superimposed on the impact of the pandemic, the effects of which we tried to mitigate by largely shutting down the economy for two years.  So, yes, the Conservatives have been in power and in many ways not made a very good job of it, but the serious economic issues we’re now facing are worldwide and really can’t be blamed solely on the UK Government.

As much as that is true, it was also true of the 2009 financial crisis but that doesn't stop the Tory party blaming Labour for that.. even now.

[Well b back 3,190]

So stopping non British taking British jobs in the NHS went well. We have stopped our European neighbours taking NHS jobs yet 34% of NHS jobs last year were filled by non British or EU workers.

[Badger 2,405]

8 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

So, yes, the Conservatives have been in power and in many ways not made a very good job of it, but the serious economic issues we’re now facing are worldwide and really can’t be blamed solely on the UK Government.

I agree that we cannot blame global inflation solely on the govt, however, Govts tend to get blamed for the world economy as Gordon Brown found out in 2010.

However, the problems facing Britain moving forwards are greater than some countries because of self-inflicted wounds from the Cameron years in particular. As Liz Truss is basically saying at the moment, cutting expenditure at times of low or no economic growth is a bad idea which has contributed to our very low growth, declining infrastructure and increasing indebtedness (despite austerity). We also have the issue of deliberately damaging trade with out biggest trading partner. As you identify imposing sanctions is costly, which is why the decision to impose massive economic sanctions against ourselves was such a strange decision.

[duke63 541]

12 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Its too much of a cop out to just blame the print press in the year 2022, not least because most of them are dying. A slow death, but dying nonetheless. 

I mean, the Telegraph is all behind a paywall for a start,  but the Daily Express has a circulation of just 321k, down from 771k when Labour last won an election, and the Daily Mail just 1.2m, down from 2.3m when Labour last won an election. The Telegraph down from 911k to 360k.

Social Media has appeared in that time of course, and people read stuff online.

If it is the "right wing press" which is to blame, how do you explain the SNP winning Scotland, that's the biggest problem facing Labour, its the primary reason they are likely to rely entirely on coalition governments going forward. 

Yet the Leave capaign used various nefarious ways to lie to people via social media.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

11 minutes ago, duke63 said:

Yet the Leave capaign used various nefarious ways to lie to people via social media.

That's one way to look at it, the other is that the Remain campaign was useless, badly run, took their poll lead for granted. spent their own budget badly and could have focussed on social media marketing themselves. 

Edited August 5, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[1902 1,167]

26 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

12 years of Tory rule, but Putin’s invasion has caused massive increases in fuel costs globally with knock-on effects on production of pretty much everything including food.  The cost of imposing sanctions is huge, and that is superimposed on the impact of the pandemic, the effects of which we tried to mitigate by largely shutting down the economy for two years.  So, yes, the Conservatives have been in power and in many ways not made a very good job of it, but the serious economic issues we’re now facing are worldwide and really can’t be blamed solely on the UK Government.

Government can't prevent worldwide crises, but government can insulate us from the shock of them.

This government has failed to effectively do that and should rightly be blamed for a poor set of policies. 

What's more, the government has been slow to identify problems and deal with them. The Johnson show dominated when the country needed a serious response from a leader who behaved like an adult. Now we are facing a similar situation where we had a leadership 'debate' where the "war on woke" took up as much time as the serious defence, foreign policy and economic issues we now face.

All of this is a conservative party problem, not an international situation problem.

[Naturalcynic 629]

6 minutes ago, Badger said:

I agree that we cannot blame global inflation solely on the govt, however, Govts tend to get blamed for the world economy as Gordon Brown found out in 2010.

However, the problems facing Britain moving forwards are greater than some countries because of self-inflicted wounds from the Cameron years in particular. As Liz Truss is basically saying at the moment, cutting expenditure at times of low or no economic growth is a bad idea which has contributed to our very low growth, declining infrastructure and increasing indebtedness (despite austerity). We also have the issue of deliberately damaging trade with out biggest trading partner. As you identify imposing sanctions is costly, which is why the decision to impose massive economic sanctions against ourselves was such a strange decision.

Interesting that you mention Cameron, who I think is culpable for a lot of the problems the Conservatives have faced in recent years. In an effort to unite his party and to stop the haemorrhage of votes to UKIP, he gambled and lost on the referendum.  But instead of showing leadership and dealing with the consequences he resigned, leaving a gaping void at the top of government followed by two years of the ineffectual Theresa May administration which obviously then resulted in the Boris Johnson years and everything that went with that.  Although a good orator in the style of Blair, Cameron turned out to be spineless and showed cowardice in the face of the enemy.

[Herman 9,717]

6 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

That's one way to look at it, the other is that the Remain campaign was useless, badly run, took their poll lead for granted. spent their own budget badly and could have done exactly the same thing. 

You’re both right, but the dishonesty of the Leave campaign was on an epic scale. 

[Naturalcynic 629]

10 minutes ago, 1902 said:

Government can't prevent worldwide crises, but government can insulate us from the shock of them.

This government has failed to effectively do that and should rightly be blamed for a poor set of policies. 

What's more, the government has been slow to identify problems and deal with them. The Johnson show dominated when the country needed a serious response from a leader who behaved like an adult. Now we are facing a similar situation where we had a leadership 'debate' where the "war on woke" took up as much time as the serious defence, foreign policy and economic issues we now face.

All of this is a conservative party problem, not an international situation problem.

I agree, and it’s an indictment of where we are politically that we obsess about things like the “war on woke”, the fact that we’ve even allowed woke to become such an all pervasive dogma, whether Starmer was late in entering things on the appropriate register, whether Sunak’s wife had non-dom status, whether Johnson ate a piece of cake, whether Starmer had beer with his curry, whether Nadine Dorries shared a satirical image of Brutus stabbing Julius Caesar etc etc.  Everything has been dumbed down to an appallingly low level and those who claim outrage at such things are just as much to blame as the media that publish them.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Naturalcynic