New Tory Leader

[sonyc 5,541]

17 minutes ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

If I have learned one thing from this debate, it is that they really shouldn't, it shows both of them in a terribly bad light.

Oh hell...I've relented and turned it on. The cricket was rubbish.

Sunak is very pushy...though his answers are argued better than Truss.

You can't help feeling they're better being in opposition and hammering out their bitter divisions there.

Meanwhile SKS...

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by sonyc

[1902 1,167]

11 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Did you object this strongly when the Labour leadership debates were on the TV? 

And is your remote control broken and the telly stuck on BBC 1?

That's fairly irrelevant. I could have thought something was a great idea 2 years ago and think it's crap now.

Tbh, I have no idea why the conservatives have agreed to this, it's a complete political ****show.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

Rishi Sunak is being incredibly rude by not allowing Liz Truss to finish her points.

[Mr Apples 1,325]

When someone inserts a brain in the Trussbot she may actually be able to answer a question coherently. 🤣

Apples

[littleyellowbirdie 2,574]

2 hours ago, horsefly said:

FFS! Your claim was that PR would have rendered a referendum virtually impossible. I have just demonstrated that PR in 2010 would have resulted in the election of a far greater number of MPs who had promised to institute a referendum on EU membership. Ergo your claim is clearly false. Whether those same MPs ultimately reneged on their promise is completely irrelevant to your claim.

In actuality, in 2010, the government formed consisted of the Lib Dems and the Conservatives, who together represented 59.1% of votes cast and also commanded a majority in parliament. Both the Lib Dems and the Conservatives had a commitment to an in/out referendum in each of their respective manifestos. 

When it came to the crunch in the coalition, the Lib Dems refused to grant a Conservative backbencher motion for an in/out referendum on EU membership. In addition to this, following the 2015 general election, where the Conservative party had a parliamentary majority of its own, the Conservatives went on to actually pass legislation for an in/out referendum. 

Let's take your premise at face value, that the Lib Dems were a pro-referendum party because the 2010 Lib Dem manifesto said they were. Taking the 2010 general election results, parties that counted as pro-referendum based on manifesto were: 

• The Conservatives (36.1%)
• UKIP (3.1%)
• BNP (1.9%)
• Lib Dems (23%)

By your argument in the strict letter of it, MPs who had 'promised' to deliver a referendum, then you're right. 

In either the FPTP scenario and the PR scenario, the votes are only there if you count the Lib Dem manifesto commitment at face value, but as soon as you take into account that they were in government from 2010-2015 and actually derailed a referendum then you're wrong, because UKIP and the BNP don't have the numbers to get 50% without the Lib Dems in the PR scenario. 

Weirdly, if you stick with your argument that the Lib Dem manifesto should be taken at face value, then you seem to have accidentally made a moral case that there should have been a referendum on EU membership passed by parliament during the 2010-2015 Conservative/Lib Dem coalition. 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/election2010/results/

Edited July 25, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,817]

10 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Rishi Sunak is being incredibly rude by not allowing Liz Truss to finish her points.

That is a disgrace.

[dj11 377]

3 minutes ago, Herman said:

That is a disgrace.

Are you comparing apples with pears?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

So you're telling me that you have more confidence in a  system that delivers Conservative majorities the majority of the time as preferable to a system that makes majority government of any one party highly unlikely when you hate the conservatives so much? That's insane.

 

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

So you're telling me that you have more confidence in a  system that delivers Conservative majorities the majority of the time as preferable to a system that makes majority government of any one party highly unlikely when you hate the conservatives so much? That's insane.

I'm not telling you anything. Perish the thought.

What I gave you were facts. Then I said I was undecided. Nothing insane about that. And the reason we have more Tory Governments is because more people vote for them than a Labour party, let alone Socialist one.

The insanity could well be that we could have people in Parliament and maybe even Government who were chosen and not elected. Just as we also have a Party that does well in bye elections yet pretty mediocre at a GE.

While we have to elect Governments we can never truly represent everyone. There has never been a Socialist Government in the UK and highly unlikely there ever will be so I will never be represented under any system. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Did you object this strongly when the Labour leadership debates were on the TV? 

And is your remote control broken and the telly stuck on BBC 1?

I watched the cricket.

And yes I do moan when Party Politics is pushed onto us. I have made my mind up on what I want and that is socialism. I have no chance of getting it. Especially when this particular episode is nothing more than two complete wastes of space.

Are you a Tory member? If not, why are you watching it?

Edited July 25, 2022 by keelansgrandad

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

Are you a Tory member? If not, why are you watching it?

 Yes I am.

[Yellow Fever 3,817]

Well for what its worth I thought Sunak was by far the more assured, knowledgable and had a clear thought through policy on the economy. Truss was all ideology and frankly faith. Winging it.

I don't know who won in the Tory party but I'm fairly certain the UK lost.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,574]

10 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I watched the cricket.

And yes I do moan when Party Politics is pushed onto us. I have made my mind up on what I want and that is socialism. I have no chance of getting it. Especially when this particular episode is nothing more than two complete wastes of space.

Are you a Tory member? If not, why are you watching it?

It reads to me that you feel completely disenfranchised, which is where I am as well, in which case there is literally nothing to lose from supporting electoral reform. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Barry Brockes 147]

Truss now shortened to 1/3 after her stunning performance in the debate and Sunak out to 5/2. I must be missing something.

[Terminally Yellow 2,477]

10 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Are you a Tory member? If not, why are you watching it?

Because one of these two is going to make massive decisions on our behalf that will make a significant difference on mine and my families lives. 

Why wouldn't you watch it? 

[A Load of Squit 5,201]

The 'Blue Wall' MP's will be wondering WTF is going on.

https://news.sky.com/story/public-spending-in-north-behind-rest-of-england-despite-governments-levelling-up-agenda-12659026

Their analysis of ONS figures found that per-person public spending in the north went from being £246 higher than the England average in 2019, the year Mr Johnson took office, to £86 under the average in 2021. 

The voters who were conned into voting for the lying Tories better give them the answer.

[TheGunnShow 5,983]

Can see Bolton North-East swinging back to Labour at this rate. Bolton West might become a close one again.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

11 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It reads to me that you feel completely disenfranchised, which is where I am as well, in which case there is literally nothing to lose from supporting electoral reform. 

As I said in post that you must have missed, SKS has begun a Party commission into electoral reform, headed by Gordon Brown. And Over 70% of Labour members want some form of PR.

I am for electoral reform. But I have to point out the pitfalls in any system. For instance, UKIP and its other reformations, was there for one purpose. They had no manifesto. Just the UK out of the EU. At one stage, they would have had a fair representation in Parliament.

Knowing NZ so well, I am slightly amused at the current state of their politics which to be honest has too many parties and has uncomfortable coalitions.

We have a system where Sinn Fein will not swear allegiance to the Flag so are not allowed in Parliament.

As a Socialist, while I don't feel disenfranchised because its not for me to tell people how to vote, only to persuade them to see my policies or to correct them if they are blatantly wrong. One man one vote. But I am in a small majority.

Also, the majority of people do not give two hoots. 30% never vote and a massive amount of people who do only vote for what they perceive as favourable to them at the time. I have no problem with that. Maybe its me who is wrong by being a staunch believer in Socialism.

[TheGunnShow 5,983]

The notion of "too many parties" seems odd. Furthermore, whilst any system has pitfalls, the UK model has by far the most egregious ones of the lot.

Let's face it, the FPTP model was outdated in 1945.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

2 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

The 'Blue Wall' MP's will be wondering WTF is going on.

https://news.sky.com/story/public-spending-in-north-behind-rest-of-england-despite-governments-levelling-up-agenda-12659026

Their analysis of ONS figures found that per-person public spending in the north went from being £246 higher than the England average in 2019, the year Mr Johnson took office, to £86 under the average in 2021. 

The voters who were conned into voting for the lying Tories better give them the answer.

The 'blue wall' is in Southern England.

I think you mean the former red wall seats which turned blue?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

The notion of "too many parties" seems odd. Furthermore, whilst any system has pitfalls, the UK model has by far the most egregious ones of the lot.

Let's face it, the FPTP model was outdated in 1945.

In a nation of 4 million, that prides itself on self determination, hard work and community spirit, they have had some bizarre parties.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

12 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Because one of these two is going to make massive decisions on our behalf that will make a significant difference on mine and my families lives. 

Why wouldn't you watch it? 

Because they aren't telling me anything I haven't heard in the last 60 years of paying attention to politics. Truss is obviously lying already and Sunak doesn't carry any authority. I don't see him handling a Cabinet.

And as a Pensioner and Socialist, they won't make a significant difference to me.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

17 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

The 'blue wall' is in Southern England.

I think you mean the former red wall seats which turned blue?

The Blue Wall is in the provinces actually. All the Metropolitans are by and large Red.

[canarydan23 4,060]

22 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Blair is the longest serving leader in Labour Party history, by some margin, and that is a fact.

No he's not and no it isn't.

I can think of at least two who were leaders longer than Blair. Do you mean longest serving Prime Minister in Labour Party history?

Edited July 26, 2022 by canarydan23

[Terminally Yellow 2,477]

Just now, keelansgrandad said:

And as a Pensioner and Socialist, they won't make a significant difference to me.

I'm sorry I didn't realise as a pensioner and a socialist you didn't pay bills.

Of course it will matter to you, but entirely your prerogative to ignore it if you want.  

[Yellow Fever 3,817]

Even though I thought Sunak at least understood the pros and cons of any policy, the elephant in the room was Brexit and the damage it's doing to our envelope for economic growth. It was fun when both said Brexit wasn't to blame for the Channel fiasco this weekend when everybody else says it is. I guess neither can be called honest as to really telling the unpalatable truth. Such is the Tory party today and its articles of faith.

We obviously have a cost of living crisis but oddly we also have labour shortages (as exemplified by enormous shortages in the NHS yesterday). Stimulating the economy when you have labour shortages and pressure already on wages is simply a recipe for runaway inflation. Very obviously Sunak is getting exasperated with Truss who is trashing any notion that the Tories are the party of economic competence.

Meanwhile SKS shrewdly refrains from promising to re-nationalize some industries (rail is falling back to the govt. anyway) - It would cost billions but from where at present ? It's ever more clear where the true economic competence lies these days.

 

   

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

We have a system where Sinn Fein will not swear allegiance to the Flag so are not allowed in Parliament.

That's not the official line. Sinn Fein would likely as not still refuse to attend Parliament even if the ridiculous, outdated Oath of Allegiance rubbish was abolished. They simply don't recognise the legitimacy of the role of Parliament in Northern Ireland. So Oath or no Oath, their MPs wouldn't participate in Parliament.

[A Load of Squit 5,201]

26 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

The 'blue wall' is in Southern England.

I think you mean the former red wall seats which turned blue?

If they were red and then they turned blue then they are blue wall, unless they forgot to use an undercoat which would make them purple. 

[TheGunnShow 5,983]

12 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

In a nation of 4 million, that prides itself on self determination, hard work and community spirit, they have had some bizarre parties.

I don't see that as an issue. In fact, I'd be more surprised if there weren't any bizarre political parties when we're talking at a country level as invariably not all standpoints will be represented by the parties that are elected.

Well, not as good as my favourite political poster ever. In Belgium it is compulsory to vote, and non-voting is punished with a small fine. It resulted in a party called NEE (No) who were basically around to be all Monster Raving Loony and act as a protest vote. One politician in a major party promised 40,000 jobs, and then this came in response.

[Well b back 3,259]

27 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

I'm sorry I didn't realise as a pensioner and a socialist you didn't pay bills.

Of course it will matter to you, but entirely your prerogative to ignore it if you want.  

It mattered to me, after voting Tory all my life I vowed never to vote Tory again until Johnson was gone, and also to vote tactically against our Tory mp. However after listening to those 2 last nice ( especially Truss trotting out lie after lie ), I will still not be voting Tory anytime soon. Truss is quite happy to land trillions of debt on my kids and grand kids for years to come, just to keep 160,000 people happy. She was also appealing to their hatred of our European neighbours. 
She forgets many of the younger generation look in disbelief at what our generation did with Brexit.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

24 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

If they were red and then they turned blue then they are blue wall, unless they forgot to use an undercoat which would make them purple. 

Please just read the first line or two of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_(British_politics)

Hope that explains.

That's why it was significant that the Tory's took "red wall" seats, the red wall is/was the Labour equivalent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_wall_(British_politics)

Hope that explains.