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lEEDS ARE THROWING IT AWAY AGAIN

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On 29/06/2020 at 16:04, hogesar said:

It's absolute rubbish and deep down Jim knows it too. He has some very reasoned opinions and despite me not agreeing with most of what he says I think Jim is a good poster but this one is just a nonsensical attack on our current owners with the only evidence available in comparison to the Leeds owners actually 100% the opposite of what he says.

Leeds have only had their current owners for a couple of years and I guarantee they are significantly more ambitious than ours. 

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41 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Leeds have only had their current owners for a couple of years and I guarantee they are significantly more ambitious than ours. 

I think appointing Marcelo Bielsa, an internationally acclaimed coach, signifies the ambition of Leeds ‘current’ owners! I really don’t think Jim Smith has an argument to answer and I personally support his stand 👍

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How are their current owners more ambitious than ours? And how are they more ambitious than their previous owners? How come all those previously ambitious clubs lived in the shadow of our owners ambitions?

There's probably more questions than answers....

Edited by nutty nigel

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Nearly there, come on Luton, if you excuse the expression

Edited by Van wink

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God knows how they only managed a draw against Luton with these proper ambitious owners. They must just be soooo unlucky

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4 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

Leeds have only had their current owners for a couple of years and I guarantee they are significantly more ambitious than ours. 

What evidence is there for that?

Now we know you typically judge by money spent so how much more have their owners spent on players than us and how much better at football are they than us?

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4 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

Leeds have only had their current owners for a couple of years and I guarantee they are significantly more ambitious than ours. 

or, you just don't like Norwich City

 

and others might care to look at the other end of the table and ask if it is lack of ambition that has the likes of Stoke, H'field  and Boro fighting relegation

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Nobody seems to want to tell me what this "ambition" is and how it's measured? I truly don't know what is meant by statements like Jimbo's about Leeds' owners "I guarantee they are significantly more ambitious than ours".

If ambition is a strong desire to achieve something it would be difficult not to recognise such attributes in spades within our club. 

Does it mean something else? 

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6 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

No we haven’t tried it and nearly gone bust. The January signings of Naismith and Klose have somehow been rebranded in recent years as us “spending big in the past.” What they were was one reasonable signing made 6 months too late in the case of Klose and one disastrous signing of a player we didn’t really need on a stupid contract. We have never spent recent money at the time we needed to on the right players. 

Let’s not forget Robbie Brady that season for £9mil either. The mighty RvW a season or two beforehand. Now Robbie wasn’t too bad for us but for the money spent (most those guys around the £10mil mark including Naismith and Klose) can you sit there confidently and tell us all how superior they have been to the likes of signings like Hoolahan, Holt, Buendia, Pukki, Krul? - I could go on and on.

It kind of proves the point that some of us are making to you and CW that spending a bit of money doesn’t guarantee you anything, in fact I don’t think there’s any discernible difference between a £15mil player and someone who’s been cleverly scouted. Bottom line is, unless you’re shelling out £75mil a player, the level of player isn’t any better than what can be scouted for pennies.

I notice incidentally that there’s no comeback from the likes of yourself or CW on the point I made earlier about the fact that Fahrmann, Amadou and Duda could easily have cost us £50MIL combined last summer. There’s your spending for you 👍. Lets say we took them on as permanents rather than loans. Same players after all - only difference was we didn’t reck the club with a £50mil bill. And look how those players took us to next level 🤦🏻‍♂️. I bet you wouldn’t be sat here defending them today. You’d be moaning at what a waste of money, you and I both know that.

And talking of guarantees, what a stupid thing to say, ‘guaranteeing that the owners of Leeds are more ambitious than the owners of Norwich’. Opinion you are of course welcome to,  as we all are on a message board, but to *guarantee* is another matter entirely - in short, you have absolutely ZERO proof of that so please stop making up total and utter b0110x.

 

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10 hours ago, hogesar said:

What evidence is there for that?

Now we know you typically judge by money spent so how much more have their owners spent on players than us and how much better at football are they than us?

I don’t judge by money spent. I judge by the effort genuinely made to retain our place in the top division which is consistently very little. 
 

im sure if you ask them they will say they want to stay in the premier league but actions speak louder than words. 

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6 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I don’t judge by money spent. I judge by the effort genuinely made to retain our place in the top division which is consistently very little. 
 

im sure if you ask them they will say they want to stay in the premier league but actions speak louder than words. 

So how on earth can you conclude that Leeds owners are DEFINITELY more ambitious if you measure it by how much effort they put into retaining their place in the top division when....THEY'VE NOT BEEN THERE YET. 😂😂

  • Haha 1

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36 minutes ago, hogesar said:

So how on earth can you conclude that Leeds owners are DEFINITELY more ambitious if you measure it by how much effort they put into retaining their place in the top division when....THEY'VE NOT BEEN THERE YET. 😂😂

I think if you read the post again that you quoted by Jim Smith you will find he is talking about our owners.

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Leeds will be feeling the pressure more and more - just like we did last season.  They may well get over the line like we did, but they may not have the inspiration that our players did - Vrancic for instance with that last minute free kick and that Blackburn goal. Pressure does funny things to players and Leeds imo are going to find it very difficult to get over the line - especially if teams below them continue to knock on the door of the top two.

It ain't easy trying to get over that line, which is also why Villa/WHam/Bnmth may continue to really struggle above us - giving us the opporunity to get back at them, assuming we can get a victory or two to make it interesting.

There is massive pressure on Leeds - they've folded at crucial times of the season so many times now, are they actually going to do it this season?  It isn't certain, any more than it was certain for us last season. They still have to earn it.......

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I see old nobchops isn’t on here bragging about their stunning ‘win’ over Luton last night. And yet so many of their fans think they’ll be pushing top 6 in the Premier next season ha ha. It’s going to hit them hard...

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39 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

I think if you read the post again that you quoted by Jim Smith you will find he is talking about our owners.

Nope. He's talking about "how he judges the ambition of owners" which is the discussion point here. Do keep up.

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Just now, hogesar said:

Nope. He's talking about "how he judges the ambition of owners" which is the discussion point here. Do keep up.

Unless of course he judges different owners by different measures which would then make any comparison completely irrelevant and pointless...

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9 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Nobody seems to want to tell me what this "ambition" is and how it's measured? I truly don't know what is meant by statements like Jimbo's about Leeds' owners "I guarantee they are significantly more ambitious than ours".

If ambition is a strong desire to achieve something it would be difficult not to recognise such attributes in spades within our club. 

Does it mean something else? 

"Ambition" by this forums's logic means pointing to the similar sized clubs above us, and asking why we aren't them: Bournemouth, Crystal Palace, Sheffield United, Burnley, Brighton, Watford, Wolves.

Whilst ignoring the fate of Bolton, Coventry, Portsmouth, Sunderland, Fulham, West Brom, Nottingham Forest, Swansea, Sheffield Wednesday, Hull, Huddersfield, Middlesboro, Stoke, Blackburn, Charlton and Ipswich because they're below us, which means they no longer count 😝

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So then.....If after all their stutterin' seasons in the football wilderness & Doirty Leedz do reach the pound signed promised land of the Premiership.....Does anyone actually think that their 'hard-core' loyal and true support will accept sugary statements or pretentious platitudes from the current Leedz board, like. "Now that we're here let's all just enjoy the moment"...or...."Our target success is to finish 17th or above"...or... "There's unfortunately no money in the coffers to purchase any quality and Paddy Bamford will come good"....or...."We hope eventually to be a top 26 football club".....or...."Buckets don't come cheap y'know".....etc....etc....

Would those 'Doirty Leedz' support just go "Ho hum' never mind, beaten again and we're conceding goals like raindrops falling through chicken wire, but let's all just enjoy the ride and support the club as best we can. If we unfortunately get relegated let's just take it on the chin, accept it, and we'll hopefully bounce back next season."....Although even if facing dead cert relegation, the 'Doirty Leedz' subservient support will just all have a little blub, then lay on their backs, pretend they're 'dead flies' and have their tummies tickled.....

Although I can guarantee that it's not very fooken likely that they will...

 

Our NCFC Board and owners are so fortunate that our support are ever tolerant and understanding....

"Right you Norwich lot, we're down, so wipe away them pathetic tears and get on your bl00dy backs....it's belly rubbin' time"......  

 

 

  

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14 minutes ago, Icecream Snow said:

"Ambition" by this forums's logic means pointing to the similar sized clubs above us, and asking why we aren't them: Bournemouth, Crystal Palace, Sheffield United, Burnley, Brighton, Watford, Wolves.

Whilst ignoring the fate of Bolton, Coventry, Portsmouth, Sunderland, Fulham, West Brom, Nottingham Forest, Swansea, Sheffield Wednesday, Hull, Huddersfield, Middlesboro, Stoke, Blackburn, Charlton and Ipswich because they're below us, which means they no longer count 😝

There will always be peaks and troughs in football! Outside of the big established clubs, there will be times all teams falter, regardless of financial standing! Man City & Newcastle have both dropped to League One in recent times!

The EPL cash cow is so fat all teams will struggle with the drops in revenue on relegation.

 I for one have only ever used Leicester as a example of what could be achieved but the point that’s trying to be made, is that some of those teams (not all) at least made an sustained effort to remain an EPL club and most did manage prolonged periods as EPL clubs before their ultimate demise!

Now I fully expect certain people to come along touting the “but spending too much will financially ruin the club, just look at Bolton et al” doctrine, however I don’t recall any of us deemed ‘anti Delia’ ever advocating over spending gerzillions £££££££ and jeopardising the future of the club for all, just a proportionate spend to at least give the club a chance of mounting a challenge this year, instead of the half a$ed, defeatist, we are paupers and have no money culture, that Farke and Webber reiterate in every press conference! When you go into a season expecting to be the worst, is it any surprise that you are! That culture resonates down from the top down and I for one am amazed that Farke and Webber want to be part of it.
Again people will come along and quote the transfer failings of Klose and Naismith but I think Jim Smith has addressed that in his post above.

Ultimately if Norwich go down but come back stronger financially and on the pitch, the model has worked! If they don’t and they sell the best players to survive and lose the best management Team in the process, then it hasn’t. Hoping on the youth system to reliably churn out future superstars to replace all the sales is not guaranteed!

 I want nothing more for it to be the former but suspect it will be latter, only time will tell!

Below is the definition of ambition, have any of the boards actions going into the EPL reflect this?

ambition
/amˈbɪʃ(ə)n/
 
noun
  1. a strong desire to do or achieve something.
     
    desire and determination to achieve success
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

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10 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Nobody seems to want to tell me what this "ambition" is and how it's measured? I truly don't know what is meant by statements like Jimbo's about Leeds' owners "I guarantee they are significantly more ambitious than ours".

If ambition is a strong desire to achieve something it would be difficult not to recognise such attributes in spades within our club. 

Does it mean something else? 

Just substitute the word 'ambitious' for 'rich'. 

That's my understanding, anyway.

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1 hour ago, Icecream Snow said:

"Ambition" by this forums's logic means pointing to the similar sized clubs above us, and asking why we aren't them: Bournemouth, Crystal Palace, Sheffield United, Burnley, Brighton, Watford, Wolves.

Whilst ignoring the fate of Bolton, Coventry, Portsmouth, Sunderland, Fulham, West Brom, Nottingham Forest, Swansea, Sheffield Wednesday, Hull, Huddersfield, Middlesboro, Stoke, Blackburn, Charlton and Ipswich because they're below us, which means they no longer count 😝

Over the past two decades I'd argue that a few of the teams you've listed as below us have achieved more than we have.

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Just now, king canary said:

Over the past two decades I'd argue that a few of the teams you've listed as below us have achieved more than we have.

But on the flip side, we've achieved more than a couple in the 'better' list, such as Brighton and Sheffield United. 

There's no doubt in my mind that over the past decade we have outperformed more clubs who are historically bigger than us compared to the amount of 'smaller' teams who have done better than we have.

And let's not forget that a lot of those 'bigger' clubs have gone through a succession of rich owners who achieved the square root of sod all, such as Leeds, Forest, Sheffield Wednesday and Derby.

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1 minute ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

But on the flip side, we've achieved more than a couple in the 'better' list, such as Brighton and Sheffield United. 

There's no doubt in my mind that over the past decade we have outperformed more clubs who are historically bigger than us compared to the amount of 'smaller' teams who have done better than we have.

And let's not forget that a lot of those 'bigger' clubs have gone through a succession of rich owners who achieved the square root of sod all, such as Leeds, Forest, Sheffield Wednesday and Derby.

Yep, agree with all of that.

I just find it funny people are like 'ahahah look at Stoke now, don't they have a rich owner?' when it doesn't take a great deal to argue they've had a much more successful recent history than our own.

We've certainly outperformed some big names but we've also been outperformed by clubs who we would have thought of as smaller than us not long ago.

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56 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

So then.....If after all their stutterin' seasons in the football wilderness & Doirty Leedz do reach the pound signed promised land of the Premiership.....Does anyone actually think that their 'hard-core' loyal and true support will accept sugary statements or pretentious platitudes from the current Leedz board, like. "Now that we're here let's all just enjoy the moment"...or...."Our target success is to finish 17th or above"...or... "There's unfortunately no money in the coffers to purchase any quality and Paddy Bamford will come good"....or...."We hope eventually to be a top 26 football club".....or...."Buckets don't come cheap y'know".....etc....etc....

Would those 'Doirty Leedz' support just go "Ho hum' never mind, beaten again and we're conceding goals like raindrops falling through chicken wire, but let's all just enjoy the ride and support the club as best we can. If we unfortunately get relegated let's just take it on the chin, accept it, and we'll hopefully bounce back next season."....Although even if facing dead cert relegation, the 'Doirty Leedz' subservient support will just all have a little blub, then lay on their backs, pretend they're 'dead flies' and have their tummies tickled.....

Although I can guarantee that it's not very fooken likely that they will...

 

Our NCFC Board and owners are so fortunate that our support are ever tolerant and understanding....

"Right you Norwich lot, we're down, so wipe away them pathetic tears and get on your bl00dy backs....it's belly rubbin' time"......  

 

 

  

Well Leeds fans are largely a bunch of animals so I expect they would be setting light to Elland Rd and abusing the owners etc should they go down.

But that animosity between club and fan base I doubt very much would help Leeds chances the season after. Just as it wouldn’t help ours.

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1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Nope. He's talking about "how he judges the ambition of owners" which is the discussion point here. Do keep up.

I don’t judge by money spent. I judge by the effort genuinely made to retain our place in the top division which is consistently very little. 
 

im sure if you ask them they will say they want to stay in the premier league but actions speak louder than words.

 

 

There is the full post you quoted from so please take note of the word ' our '.

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