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The players won't stand for Project Restart

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Big John Ruddy has got it right in the story on the main site now:
 

Yes, I can see it in factories and offices now. Somebody throws a ball up in the air and Lucy from Accounts leaps like a Salmon and is about to win a header but Marjorie from CS just gets up ahead of her and clears it. Poor old Sylvia looks like this game has come just to soon for her as she lies prone on the carpet, just by the photocopier after a nasty challenge off the ball by Ada the clenaer. Perhaps we can have another look at that one. Hang on, I think VAR may have seen it.

So for anyone with the French derivation of a Roman name, there is no comparison whatsoever.

 

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1 hour ago, Orly said:

It seems most of you are aware that everyone else in the entire country is returning to work, with little / no access to testing, having to take public transport in some instances, and getting paid a few quid an hour?  But somehow, premier league players paid millions, with access to plentiful resources for protecting staff and players somehow need to be protected above and beyond the general populace??

Also, I couldn't give two sh1ts about a footballer's opinion on a virus.  That's like asking the milkman for a 10,000 word dissertation on Ugandan cultural appropriation and economic recovery in the 1990s.

They are entitled to not FEEL safe if they wish.  They are not entitled to NOT do their jobs.  AND in my opinion, they have a moral obligation to do them,  like I have when I have gone to work when possible, so as to not burden the self-employment scheme more than I absolutely have to.

Big John Ruddy has got it right in the story on the main site now:
 

https://www.pinkun.com/norwich-city/john-ruddy-on-return-1-6648853

 

Totally agree chap.

My daughter is frontline NHS exposed daily to these risks. She has no choice and believes the sick and dying should not be abandoned at their time of need.

I have liitle sympathy for a £200k week footballer tbh.

 

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Footballers have families too. I guess they don't count as much as other people's families. 

 

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Nothing wrong with players being concerned for their health. But it's not as if they are being asked to play tomorrow. It's another month down the line at least. We should have a much clearer picture then. Hopefully some of their fears will have been allayed once they see what systems are in place. 

If after that the poor loves still don't want to go back to their life threatening job, furlough them. 

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5 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Footballers have families too. I guess they don't count as much as other people's families. 

 

I think it's because money has created such a huge divide between fans and Premier League players.

The fans no longer see players as real people in their world, and the players, having been millionaires since the age of 20, have absolutely no idea what it's like to live in the world that the fans do.

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Nothing wrong with players being concerned for their health. But it's not as if they are being asked to play tomorrow. It's another month down the line at least. We should have a much clearer picture then. Hopefully some of their fears will have been allayed once they see what systems are in place. 

I doubt if a month, or three weeks really, will be enough. No-one is going to come up with anything that can make playing football safe in a month.

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2 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

 

I think it's because money has created such a huge divide between fans and Premier League players.

The fans no longer see players as real people in their world, and the players, having been millionaires since the age of 20, have absolutely no idea what it's like to live in the world that the fans do.

This is true. It's a symptom of where the game is. It's not the players fault though. And if you read this board 3 months ago you'd see fans saying that our owners were holding us back from being able to pay higher and higher wages. 

It won't suddenly change.

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11 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

This is true. It's a symptom of where the game is. It's not the players fault though. And if you read this board 3 months ago you'd see fans saying that our owners were holding us back from being able to pay higher and higher wages. 

It won't suddenly change.

I blame Jimmy Hill.

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18 minutes ago, Cyan said:

Nothing wrong with players being concerned for their health. But it's not as if they are being asked to play tomorrow. It's another month down the line at least. We should have a much clearer picture then. Hopefully some of their fears will have been allayed once they see what systems are in place. 

If after that the poor loves still don't want to go back to their life threatening job, furlough them. 

Why are you so keen that they should play?

You won't be able to go the games. They're already committed to refunding any tickets you already brought. If you do get to see the games on TV they won't be anything like league games. Just friendlies without any fans.

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Football is a great example of a job you just can't do from home. 

Players have no moral obligation to play- that is nonsense. They are entirely entitled to say they don't feel safe. 

Fundamentally though, the longer we go without any games being played, the closer we get to a situation of a club having to furlough players or just going bust. TV money, sponsorship money, pretty much all income doesn't come in for clubs if games aren't being played and then they can't pay anyone.

 

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34 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Why are you so keen that they should play?

You won't be able to go the games. They're already committed to refunding any tickets you already brought. If you do get to see the games on TV they won't be anything like league games. Just friendlies without any fans.

I don't care if they don't play. Decide the season by PPG, fine by me. 

 

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3 hours ago, Orly said:

It seems most of you are aware that everyone else in the entire country is returning to work, with little / no access to testing, having to take public transport in some instances, and getting paid a few quid an hour?  But somehow, premier league players paid millions, with access to plentiful resources for protecting staff and players somehow need to be protected above and beyond the general populace??

Also, I couldn't give two sh1ts about a footballer's opinion on a virus.  That's like asking the milkman for a 10,000 word dissertation on Ugandan cultural appropriation and economic recovery in the 1990s.

They are entitled to not FEEL safe if they wish.  They are not entitled to NOT do their jobs.  AND in my opinion, they have a moral obligation to do them,  like I have when I have gone to work when possible, so as to not burden the self-employment scheme more than I absolutely have to.

Big John Ruddy has got it right in the story on the main site now:
 

https://www.pinkun.com/norwich-city/john-ruddy-on-return-1-6648853

 

Sorry but this ignores the hundreds of other staff that would be necessary to allow a game to take place, not just the players.  Also our already over-stretched NHS staff, police forces and other emergency services would all have a part to play in this scenario.  As Bill Shankly wrongly said 'Football is not a matter of life and death, it is more important than that'.

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2 minutes ago, Cyan said:

I don't care if they don't play. Decide the season by PPG, fine by me. 

 

Well you obviously do. Otherwise what was the 'poor loves' comment for?

Any solution that doesn't cost lives is better than one that potentially does. Wouldn't you agree?

The only possible reason for wanting the games played is money. But you won't get that money. So other people's money would be the motivation 

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2 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Without promotion or relegation, right? 😉

I can't understand why people on here are so vexed by promotion/relegation. It can only be self-interest, which at a time of severe threat is an immoral and selfish stance. We are bottom because we are the worst team. Villa fans might have a case to be a bit annoyed. Or Bournemouth. Or potentially West Ham. We don't have any such case.

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3 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

I can't understand why people on here are so vexed by promotion/relegation. It can only be self-interest, which at a time of severe threat is an immoral and selfish stance. We are bottom because we are the worst team. Villa fans might have a case to be a bit annoyed. Or Bournemouth. Or potentially West Ham. We don't have any such case.

I was joking, because Cyan is blatantly a Leeds fan.

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1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

Well you obviously do. Otherwise what was the 'poor loves' comment for?

Any solution that doesn't cost lives is better than one that potentially does. Wouldn't you agree?

The only possible reason for wanting the games played is money. But you won't get that money. So other people's money would be the motivation 

 

I don't care if they play or not. If anything PPG suits best. Me saying poor loves doesn't actually change that.

And I assume that with you being so worried about the players health you won't care if the season is stopped right now and they use PPG to decide final places. I mean as long as the players are all ok that's all that matters right?

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Some on here, not all, are thinking that curtailing the season will prevent NCFC from being relegated and are dressing that up as morale outrage, concerns for player safety or whatever.

The best hope for NCFC to avoid relegation is to actually play. Anything else and we will be relegated.

I do find it quite respulsive that a footballer will refuse to give any of their salaries back and then start whinening the minute they have to put themselves at a tiny amount of risk. Social distancing will apply, tests galore no public transport to endure. 

If some don't want to play fine, but others may be happy to and the population will expect them to, just as they expect a nurse or doctor to care for them.

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9 minutes ago, Cyan said:

 

I don't care if they play or not. If anything PPG suits best. Me saying poor loves doesn't actually change that.

And I assume that with you being so worried about the players health you won't care if the season is stopped right now and they use PPG to decide final places. I mean as long as the players are all ok that's all that matters right?

You shouldn't make assumptions. I just said that any solution that doesnt cost lives is better than one that potentially does. But you are obviously hard of reading?

Even if you don't care about the "poor loves" if they bring the virus back to Norwich it will put you, your family and people in the NHS at further risk.

Is the love or even hate of other people's money worth that?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Orly said:

It seems most of you are aware that everyone else in the entire country is returning to work, with little / no access to testing, having to take public transport in some instances, and getting paid a few quid an hour?  But somehow, premier league players paid millions, with access to plentiful resources for protecting staff and players somehow need to be protected above and beyond the general populace??

Also, I couldn't give two sh1ts about a footballer's opinion on a virus.  That's like asking the milkman for a 10,000 word dissertation on Ugandan cultural appropriation and economic recovery in the 1990s.

They are entitled to not FEEL safe if they wish.  They are not entitled to NOT do their jobs.  AND in my opinion, they have a moral obligation to do them,  like I have when I have gone to work when possible, so as to not burden the self-employment scheme more than I absolutely have to.

Big John Ruddy has got it right in the story on the main site now:
 

https://www.pinkun.com/norwich-city/john-ruddy-on-return-1-6648853

 

Actually people should not be going back work yet in my opinion as I do not think this virus has been contained. We still have no way of tracing and containing yet and I believe we are risking a second, far more deadly, wave.

Just because lots of workers are being put at risk, does not mean footballers should be also.

Plus, any worker who does not feel safe in work has every right to refuse to do so

Unfortunately, I do not see football returning until August 2021 at the earliest unless a cure or vaccine can be found which we are now being told may not happen.

Edited by Kenny Foggo
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4 minutes ago, Cyan said:

 

I mean as long as the players are all ok that's all that matters right?

I can only speak for myself and say that the only reason I have followed football for decades is because I love the drama and thrill of 90 minutes of cut and thrust contest played live in front of your eyes, and everything that goes with it.

I have noticed that fans of clubs with stacks of silverware are not the happiest in the long term. Look at Man Utd or Arsenal fans. Between them they were dominant for a long period, bur has it made the any happier in the long term? Clearly not. In fact it has made them less content. How about Everton, who have never been relegated? Happy or not?

So please understand that promotion or relegation is not life and death, but the thought of a player entrusted by the club and fans to represent City, ending up dead or dsabled is life and death. Literally. Its not all that matters, but it is a thousand times more important than anything else.

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2 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

1) The extra protection for players is being called for by the Premier League/the top clubs because they are desperate to finish the season for financial reasons. I imagine many of the players are embarrassed that they might get preferential treatment.

2) The 'footballers are thickoes' argument writ very large. You do not need to be an epidemiologist to work out that this virus could kill you.

3) There is no moral obligation to do your job if that endangers your health and that of those around you.

1) Irrelevant.

2) Strawman argument - these are your words, not mine.  However, why and when should anybody consider the 'opinion' of non-experts in matters requiring expert opinion?  I assume you would agree with me that the answer is "never"?    

3) This is a fair point and am open to further discussion.  My definition of morality (in the context that I meant in my original post) is based upon the concept that we all have a 'moral' obligation to fulfill our pre-corona societal roles with courage (whilst taking all reasonable precautions), to heed scientific and government advice, and to be a good citizen.  This virus is here to stay for some time, if not in perpetuity.  Should scientific advice change, then I'd be willing to re-evaulate my own views.   Additionally, being 'moral' doesn't necessarily mean "hide in our houses, cowering from the virus until it it's safe to come out again", although I accept that we may have to do this repeatedly at various times in the coming years as and when necessary re: R number.

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So here is the "moral" question to those who are criticizing players. What if half of the Man City squad for example, refused to play these games, and told their employer "please suspend my contract for the duration of the viral risk" - is it O.K for Man City to have a bunch of U21 players represent them instead? Is it O.K because they are not wealthy enough turn down that "opportunity" to play?

If BAME players are at higher risk - and Covid-19 data clearly shows that BAME deaths are disproportionatey high for whatever reason - is it unfair on a team like Watford with a squad that includes Mariappa, Kabasele, Spencer-Adams, Balogun, Chalobah, Doucoure, Quina, Capoue, Dele-Bashiru, Hungbo, Deeney, Sucess, Grey, Welbeck Sarr and Pedro from entering a competition that could easily see them relegated?

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2 minutes ago, Orly said:

1) Irrelevant.

2) Strawman argument - these are your words, not mine.  However, why and when should anybody consider the 'opinion' of non-experts in matters requiring expert opinion?  I assume you would agree with me that the answer is "never"?    

3) This is a fair point and am open to further discussion.  My definition of morality (in the context that I meant in my original post) is based upon the concept that we all have a 'moral' obligation to fulfill our pre-corona societal roles with courage (whilst taking all reasonable precautions), to heed scientific and government advice, and to be a good citizen.  This virus is here to stay for some time, if not in perpetuity.  Should scientific advice change, then I'd be willing to re-evaulate my own views.   Additionally, being 'moral' doesn't necessarily mean "hide in our houses, cowering from the virus until it it's safe to come out again", although I accept that we may have to do this repeatedly at various times in the coming years as and when necessary re: R number.

You are confusing the argument. What these footballers is doing is saying what they believe to be the case  based on having listened to expert opinion. Unless you are a doctor I would guess that every medical decision you have taken in relation to your body and your life has been taken in just that same way.

And as an aside, you seem quite happy to accept John Ruddy's opinion says, although by your argument no-one should listen to a word he says, but not the views on footballers who are worried by the virus.

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The idea that people who don't leave their houses to do something that's not essential are cowering from the virus takes some sinking in.

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7 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

You shouldn't make assumptions. I just said that any solution that doesnt cost lives is better than one that potentially does. But you are obviously hard of reading?

Even if you don't care about the "poor loves" if they bring the virus back to Norwich it will put you, your family and people in the NHS at further risk.

Is the love or even hate of other people's money worth that?

Until a vaccine is found anybody that goes to work could potentially be in danger. Yikes.

Should we all stay at home until then?

Do we mothball football until a vaccine is found, just to be on the safe side?

Or maybe just until the season is null and void......aye that's it isn't it. 

 

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Just now, nutty nigel said:

The idea that people who don't leave their houses to do something that's not essential are cowering from the virus takes some sinking in.

I never cower on my way to the recycle bins Nutty.

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2 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Actually people should not be going back work yet in my opinion as I do not think this virus has been contained. We still have no way of tracing and containing yet and I believe we are risking a second, far more deadly, wave.

Just because lots of workers are being put at risk, does not mean footballers should be also.

Plus, any worker who does not feel safe in work has every right to refuse to do so

Unfortunately, I do not see football returning until August 2021 at the earliest unless a cure or vaccine can be found which we are now being told may not happen.

Re: the right for workers to refuse:  I don't actually think workers CAN refuse legally - there are plenty of examples of people being threatened with the sack if they don't come in to work - unfortunately.

This is a tricky one, and I don't want to touch it with a 10 ft bargepole.  Who do you cede to.  The state? >> The employer?  >> The individual?  On a sliding scale, the further down this list you go in allowing people to decide for themselves the more complex and chaotic everything will get.

You only need to look at all the anti-vax and 5G nonsense on social media to see how hard it is to get accurate science across to the general public.  

Keep calm, stay safe and carry on (with all reasonable precautions).

And have faith - I think we'll see football next season at the very least, if not this one.

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Switching to the TV companies for a moment - if they games get played what is the excuse not to pay the contacted TV rights?

The total audience is only fractionally less and might be more, the "atmosphere" can be added back in easily enough - sound is easy, even virtual crowds is certainly technically possible, so is a "reasonable burden" to ask the TV companies to explore are part of contact fulfillment.

Is the threat of witholding £340 just hardball contract negociation / blackmail, or do they believe nobody will watch a glorified 5 a side competition, no matter how well it s dressed up?

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5 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

You are confusing the argument. What these footballers is doing is saying what they believe to be the case  based on having listened to expert opinion. Unless you are a doctor I would guess that every medical decision you have taken in relation to your body and your life has been taken in just that same way.

And as an aside, you seem quite happy to accept John Ruddy's opinion says, although by your argument no-one should listen to a word he says, but not the views on footballers who are worried by the virus.

Are you implying that the premier league club doctors are not on board with the restart?  Which ones if so?  Also, you didn't provide a quote to a specific player, nor that player referencing a specific doctor (neither did I, to be fair, but I wasn't quoting a specific player, merely talking in generalities about players spouting nonsense and conveniently forgetting that many ordinary people are going to work every day to keep the country going).

And John Ruddy didn't influence my opinion.  I merely agree with his, and more philosophically, with the stoic nature of his argument to resume.  

Anyways.  Am not here to argue, was merely tired of reading the echo chamber that this board was turning into.  Have stated my points satisfactorily and am now going to scoot off.

Everybody have a pleasant day, keep calm, stay safe and carry on (with reasonable precautions)!

 

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