Corona Virus main thread

[Barbe bleu 826]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I thought I explained why...................at some length...................perhaps I didn't make it clear enough????

It's your party, you can read what you want to.

I would suggest that Mark Y does offer some challenge and I can't see much harm in that.   

 

[T 190]

While I instinctively disagree with Mark Y because my feeling is UK should sort out PPE and track and trace first before lifting restrictions I think it is interesting to read what the likes of Sweden are doing. There are no absolute right or wrong science on restrictions at the moment. He is certainly not on my list of blocked let’s deny and ignore what is happening headbangers. 

[Barbe bleu 826]

4 minutes ago, T said:

While I instinctively disagree with Mark Y because my feeling is UK should sort out PPE and track and trace first before lifting restrictions I think it is interesting to read what the likes of Sweden are doing. There are no absolute right or wrong science on restrictions at the moment. He is certainly not on my list of blocked let’s deny and ignore what is happening headbangers. 

I'm not sure that Mark Y has gone quite as far as that.

My feeling is that we are right to take the first small steps but would agree with you that PPE supplies must be there in case we take a step too far and that  we must be in a position to replace the blanket lockdown controls with effective contact tracing. 

I'm not sure what the position on PPE is as the press have lost interest.  If I recall correctly the claim is that NHS employee death rate is at the national average whereas the figure for  care home staff is elevated.  Perhaps this suggests that we need to be sure that the latter gets the bulk of anything that is to come, particularly the homes that have not yet been exposed? 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

This is what bugs me. Nobody seems to be that interested in the fact that we still have by far the largest death rate in the whole of Europe, one of the largest in the world and the infection rate is still enormous. Yet people still want to rush people back to work, fill up the schools again and try and pretend that we are on top of this. Stop the complacency or we will end up back at square one.

Was walking the dog this morning and one of the regulars at the park and I were discussing grooming the dogs. And she made a very poignant remark. She said "I hope I can get an appointment before they have to shut again".

And listening to the arguments about children returning to school, I was concerned that they are not really taking the wishes of parents into consideration. My son is in the Army and one of the Queen's Guards so considered essential. He has no intention of sending his kids back. To here these people saying about minimum risk, they are saying there is some risk so obviously there will be some transmission.

To say, there is risk in life is not an argument. Of course children get hurt, even killed at or on their way to or from school. But I doubt many parents wake up each schoolday worrying about that outcome. But I'm pretty sure even Williamson would be concerned about his kids each day (I wonder if we can get him to leak what the real plans are)

[Bill 1,788]

"Michael Gove today admitted that there was no way of being certain teachers and children will not catch coronavirus if they return to the classroom - just moments after claiming he could “guarantee” schools are safe."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-michael-gove-school-teachers-uk-unions-a9518786.html

yep, get the kids back to school and the parents will have no reason not to go back to work - I expect Eton, Harrow, St etc will be the first schools to re-open 🧐

 

[Barbe bleu 826]

13 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

This is what bugs me. Nobody seems to be that interested in the fact that we still have by far the largest death rate in the whole of Europe, one of the largest in the world and the infection rate is still enormous. Yet people still want to rush people back to work, fill up the schools again and try and pretend that we are on top of this. Stop the complacency or we will end up back at square one.

Was walking the dog this morning and one of the regulars at the park and I were discussing grooming the dogs. And she made a very poignant remark. She said "I hope I can get an appointment before they have to shut again".

And listening to the arguments about children returning to school, I was concerned that they are not really taking the wishes of parents into consideration. My son is in the Army and one of the Queen's Guards so considered essential. He has no intention of sending his kids back. To here these people saying about minimum risk, they are saying there is some risk so obviously there will be some transmission.

To say, there is risk in life is not an argument. Of course children get hurt, even killed at or on their way to or from school. But I doubt many parents wake up each schoolday worrying about that outcome. But I'm pretty sure even Williamson would be concerned about his kids each day (I wonder if we can get him to leak what the real plans are)

As far as I know there will be no requirement for children to attend school, it will be the parent's choice.

[kick it off 1,952]

7 minutes ago, Bill said:

"Michael Gove today admitted that there was no way of being certain teachers and children will not catch coronavirus if they return to the classroom - just moments after claiming he could “guarantee” schools are safe."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-michael-gove-school-teachers-uk-unions-a9518786.html

yep, get the kids back to school and the parents will have no reason not to go back to work - I expect Eton, Harrow, St etc will be the first schools to re-open 🧐

 

Eton and Harrow have already confirmed they are shut until September. Good job none of the Tory politicians send their kids to private school and they'll all be exposed to the same risk as poor kids. Otherwise cynics might start to wonder whether the poor are cannon fodder so the rich can work out if it's safe or not.

[Bill 1,788]

RTB is sticking with his usual spinning of what is said.

Last night I posted a link to article that explained what the Kawasaki disease was and how it might be linked to a number of cases in children, world wide,

No comment, just for information only

Yet within a few minutes RTB had spun it by

'' One known death in the UK. Not enough to prevent the millions of kids from resuming their studies ""  (it was actually France)

Something that is all too frequent, from the 'usual suspects'. And when it gets too obvious they disappear and are replaced by another......who curiously, and often, feel the need to defend them

'' As usual you refute a point I didn't make and avoid any discussion about the substantive points I did make '' - CM

Still, it's all coincidence ......just as the sun rising in the east every day is coincidence

.............................. I suppose 🙄

 

[Mark .Y. 352]

57 minutes ago, T said:

While I instinctively disagree with Mark Y because my feeling is UK should sort out PPE and track and trace first before lifting restrictions I think it is interesting to read what the likes of Sweden are doing. There are no absolute right or wrong science on restrictions at the moment. He is certainly not on my list of blocked let’s deny and ignore what is happening headbangers. 

I also agree with the PPE issue T, absolutely right that it should be sorted and it is a disgrace if it still hasn't been. I know I am at odds with you, and others, on the need for such detailed track and trace but (although lets not go there again now as we have already done it all) as I have pointed out, there are European countries that are lifting restrictions without it and are seeing no particular rise in cases/deaths. 

Just to be clear though, I am for it, as far as I am concerned anything that might help is worth having.

[T 190]

It is interesting and hopefully good news to see that at least so far numbers don’t appear to be going up drastically as restrictions eased. It will be good to see some antibody figures soon. But maybe good hygiene and basic distancing are the most important factors in restrictions. I just feel more comfortable with PPE  and track and trace in place which hopefully functional in U.K. in June. 

[Borman 0]

5 minutes ago, T said:

It is interesting and hopefully good news to see that at least so far numbers don’t appear to be going up drastically as restrictions eased. It will be good to see some antibody figures soon. But maybe good hygiene and basic distancing are the most important factors in restrictions. I just feel more comfortable with PPE  and track and trace in place which hopefully functional in U.K. in June. 

Is it? 

Looking at when the lockdown started and the "lag" of a few weeks before deaths skyrocketed I don't think I'd read anything into the easing of lockdown for another 2 weeks or so yet.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Borman

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

This is what bugs me. Nobody seems to be that interested in the fact that we still have by far the largest death rate in the whole of Europe, one of the largest in the world and the infection rate is still enormous. Yet people still want to rush people back to work, fill up the schools again and try and pretend that we are on top of this. Stop the complacency or we will end up back at square one.

Was walking the dog this morning and one of the regulars at the park and I were discussing grooming the dogs. And she made a very poignant remark. She said "I hope I can get an appointment before they have to shut again".

And listening to the arguments about children returning to school, I was concerned that they are not really taking the wishes of parents into consideration. My son is in the Army and one of the Queen's Guards so considered essential. He has no intention of sending his kids back. To here these people saying about minimum risk, they are saying there is some risk so obviously there will be some transmission.

To say, there is risk in life is not an argument. Of course children get hurt, even killed at or on their way to or from school. But I doubt many parents wake up each schoolday worrying about that outcome. But I'm pretty sure even Williamson would be concerned about his kids each day (I wonder if we can get him to leak what the real plans are)

I respectfully disagree with your statement that 'risk in life is not an argument'. The risk factor is at the core of every important decision taken by the government. It can't be ignored or removed because the level of risk defines how we move forward. In the Netherlands the schools remained open and the kids mixed, in the full knowledge that some risk was involved but it seemed acceptable. 

[T 190]

I agree the lag is very important. Germany started lifting restrictions on 21 April. It needs 2 weeks for effect on cases to come through and so far Germany is seeing some isolated outbreaks but no major increase in cases. What is crucial though is that Germany has always had track race and isolate in place which not expected to June in U.K.  

[Barbe bleu 826]

4 minutes ago, T said:

I agree the lag is very important. Germany started lifting restrictions on 21 April. It needs 2 weeks for effect on cases to come through and so far Germany is seeing some isolated outbreaks but no major increase in cases. What is crucial though is that Germany has always had track race and isolate in place which not expected to June in U.K.  

Some isolated outbreaks? 5000 known cases in the last 7 days spread right throughout the country.

[Mark .Y. 352]

23 minutes ago, Borman said:

Is it? 

Looking at when the lockdown started and the "lag" of a few weeks before deaths skyrocketed I don't think I'd read anything into the easing of lockdown for another 2 weeks or so yet.

Yes, we locked down on 16th or 17th March 'ish and peak deaths was around 8th April so about 3 weeks after lockdown started.

I take some comfort in that Spain's manufacturing and construction restarted around 5 or 6 weeks ago and there has continued to be a slow decline in both cases and deaths over there.

I guess it is the social side of releasing the lockdown that is the unknown element, but you would hope with the vast majority of people being sensible and retaining the social distancing guidelines that it will work OK.

[Mark .Y. 352]

3 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Some isolated outbreaks? 5000 known cases in the last 7 days spread right throughout the country.

But the trend in new cases in Germany is still downwards, so that is a good thing.

[T 190]

Mainly driven by lpeople living in close circumstances. The point is that the numbers haven’t gone up dramatically with lifting restrictions. Germany is generally under 1000 cases a day compared to 20000 in U.K.  it is at a level where they can track trace and isolate and healthcare system can cope. Restrictions are mainly being imposed locally. If it doesn’t work restrictions will be reimposed. 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

53 minutes ago, Bill said:

RTB is sticking with his usual spinning of what is said.

Last night I posted a link to article that explained what the Kawasaki disease was and how it might be linked to a number of cases in children, world wide,

No comment, just for information only

Yet within a few minutes RTB had spun it by

'' One known death in the UK. Not enough to prevent the millions of kids from resuming their studies ""  (it was actually France)

Something that is all too frequent, from the 'usual suspects'. And when it gets too obvious they disappear and are replaced by another......who curiously, and often, feel the need to defend them

'' As usual you refute a point I didn't make and avoid any discussion about the substantive points I did make '' - CM

Still, it's all coincidence ......just as the sun rising in the east every day is coincidence

.............................. I suppose 🙄

 

You might be interested to know that the fact I quoted 'only one known death in the UK' actually came from the article you linked to. So if I spun, you provided the web. 

Its interesting that the Left are using a class-based rhetoric against sending children to school. Children need to get back to their studies as education is the key to future success. Never mind what the toffs of Eton are doing. Their parents can afford to bring in home teachers.  The parents of the rest of us are struggling with home schooling and it's difficult to keep kids interested. 

And given there is very low risk we need to get the schools open asap. We cant let our kids fall further behind. It damages their future

[Herman 9,767]

11 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

I respectfully disagree with your statement that 'risk in life is not an argument'. The risk factor is at the core of every important decision taken by the government. It can't be ignored or removed because the level of risk defines how we move forward. In the Netherlands the schools remained open and the kids mixed, in the full knowledge that some risk was involved but it seemed acceptable. 

The trouble is that you are putting kids and teachers safety into the hands of the same people that brought us the care home scandal. There is a risk of course but will the kids be put back into crowded classrooms? Are there enough rooms, teachers and assistants to safely allow for social distancing? Is there adequate PPE or cleaning facilities etc.etc.

[Borman 0]

3 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said:

 

I take some comfort in that Spain's manufacturing and construction restarted around 5 or 6 weeks ago and there has continued to be a slow decline in both cases and deaths over there.

 

I wonder how relevant the Spanish lockdown and subsequent results are compared to the UK. Construction and manufacturing may have started 5/6 weeks ago but I was always under the impression that otherwise the lockdown over there was much more severe than our own. For instance the ban on exercise or outdoor walks over there only got lifted a couple of weeks ago. Regardless hopefully the decline continues.

But the pessimist in me wonders if it might not here.... 

[Bill 1,788]

1 minute ago, Rock The Boat said:

You might be interested to know that the fact I quoted 'only one known death in the UK' actually came from the article you linked to. So if I spun, you provided the web. 

Its interesting that the Left are using a class-based rhetoric against sending children to school. Children need to get back to their studies as education is the key to future success. Never mind what the toffs of Eton are doing. Their parents can afford to bring in home teachers.  The parents of the rest of us are struggling with home schooling and it's difficult to keep kids interested. 

And given there is very low risk we need to get the schools open asap. We cant let our kids fall further behind. It damages their future

yes, it is all about the education of the children of the 'rest of us'

 of course it is 🙄

that is why there have previously been so many cuts to education, because it was all about their education

this is nothing more than what was said above - get the kids back in school and the parents have to go back to work, irrespective of the risk

so stop putting out this Prolier than thou guff - yours is little more than your usual cap doffing to your betters

[Van wink 2,994]

5 minutes ago, Borman said:

I wonder how relevant the Spanish lockdown and subsequent results are compared to the UK. Construction and manufacturing may have started 5/6 weeks ago but I was always under the impression that otherwise the lockdown over there was much more severe than our own. For instance the ban on exercise or outdoor walks over there only got lifted a couple of weeks ago. Regardless hopefully the decline continues.

But the pessimist in me wonders if it might not here.... 

It was a lot more restrictive and Spain opened up on a regional basis, something we should consider doing here.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I wonder how relevant the Spanish lockdown and subsequent results are compared to the UK. Construction and manufacturing may have started 5/6 weeks ago but I was always under the impression that otherwise the lockdown over there was much more severe than our own. For instance the ban on exercise or outdoor walks over there only got lifted a couple of weeks ago. Regardless hopefully the decline continues.

But the pessimist in me wonders if it might not here.... 

You are correct. I was speaking to my Brother in Law who lives near Alicante and the restrictions are still more stricter than ours.

It is remarkable that other Nations are used when it suits and then discarded as irrelevant another time.

What matters to the people of Germany or Spain is not a yardstick for the UK. Cornwall is different to Norfolk and the comparison would not be fair.

[Van wink 2,994]

1 minute ago, Bill said:

 

this is nothing more than what was said above - get the kids back in school and the parents have to go back to work, irrespective of the risk

 

That really is absolute nonsense even by your standards.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

3 minutes ago, Herman said:

The trouble is that you are putting kids and teachers safety into the hands of the same people that brought us the care home scandal. There is a risk of course but will the kids be put back into crowded classrooms? Are there enough rooms, teachers and assistants to safely allow for social distancing? Is there adequate PPE or cleaning facilities etc.etc.

Firstly we know there is extremely low risk to children. For healthy teachers there is low risk which can be mitigated by social distancing, hand-washing etc. Elderly and vulnerable teachers should not return to schools but we could look at remote teaching possibilities. 

And we should take a phased approach to opening up the schools, not bringing the kids back at at the same time but on  rolling basis when testing proves it is safe to open up to the next level

[Bill 1,788]

6 minutes ago, Van wink said:

That really is absolute nonsense even by your standards.

we both know what I said is correct - only as a diehard 'righty' you cannot admit it

and if it was not correct all the public/private schools would be returning, as would those who have reached a stage in their education that is vital - six formers, students etc... so why are the Unis and colleges not being talked off ?

could it be that their being at home does not affect their parents going to work ?

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

1 minute ago, Bill said:

we both know what I said is correct - only as a diehard 'righty' you cannot admit it

and if it was not correct all the public/private schools would be returning, as would those who have reached a stage in their education that is vital - six formers, students etc... so why are the Unis and colleges not being talked off ?

could it be that their being at home does not affect their parents going to work ?

I think you will find there will be a phased approach to opening up the educational establishments and this is currently phase 1

[Yellow Fever 3,785]

First, let me state that I do think a phased return to school from the 1st should happen.

However - there is also total hypocrisy at play.

Just been to a garden  centre - entrance refereed by an employee in full plastic visor. Once (eventually) inside almost empty.

And then we ask teachers to accept hordes of likely less disciplined children,. Hypocrites.

Let the children back when we are also prepared to relax some of the stricter or over-done rules in supermarkets, diy shops and garden centres.

Else pay the teachers 100,000 a year bonus danger money! 

[Bill 1,788]

31 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

I think you will find there will be a phased approach to opening up the educational establishments and this is currently phase 1

I know, that's why I posted what I did

and unsurprisingly it is Primary school kids

with Secondary schools not set to open until September - where some might suggest it is 15-16 years olds education that has a greater effect than that of a 5-6 year old

but then it is not the former who need their parents to stay home to look after them

And as to RTB's nonsense about the wealthy being able to afford to hire teachers for home schooling, how does that affect government rules on social distancing ?

Or was it simply more righty nonsense dragged out to try to defend his betters'........

...........................I think we know the answer to that 😉

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Bill

[Mark .Y. 352]

47 minutes ago, Borman said:

I wonder how relevant the Spanish lockdown and subsequent results are compared to the UK. Construction and manufacturing may have started 5/6 weeks ago but I was always under the impression that otherwise the lockdown over there was much more severe than our own. For instance the ban on exercise or outdoor walks over there only got lifted a couple of weeks ago. Regardless hopefully the decline continues.

But the pessimist in me wonders if it might not here.... 

Yes, for sure the social lockdown has only just started to be released - and that is only in the majority of Spain, not all of it. I believe Madrid and Barcelona are actually behind most of the country in coming out of the lockdown. At least, that was what I understood from Spanish TV.

And, although by nature I am an optimist, given what has happened, pessimissm is a reasonable feeling to have   🙂