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1 hour ago, BigFish said:

The UK's government figures put the total number of deaths at a figure that is the highest in Europe. This figure is only for those that die having a positive diagonosis/test. The UK's excess death figures are significantly higher than this. The probale explanation is that excess deaths include those not diagnosed (e.g. they died at home) and those caused indirectly by the virus or the confusion caused by the virus. However you put it, the death toll in the UK (and possibly England on its own) is likely to be the highest in Europe.

image.thumb.png.466fc09a89b5c701fd78bb322752309e.png

I don't mind a reasonable debate about it, that is fine, I objected to the lie that I had made some defence of the UK Government, when quite clearly I had not.

So, do we know how many people have died in Italian or Spanish care homes ?

I'm not bothered about the figures the UK Government puts out or what hte UK Government says, as I have previously said - their communication skills are breathtakingly low. I would just like to see an official figure from both Spain and Italy so we can see for ourselves.

Also, my understanding is that Covid-19 is listed as the cause of death when it is present - whether or not it is the actual cause itself. Is that your understanding too ?   

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Should we take seriously a man that can't plan and write a sign properly?😀

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8 minutes ago, Herman said:

Should we take seriously a man that can't plan and write a sign properly?😀

Image

You are number 6. But who is the new number 2

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49 minutes ago, ricardo said:

You are number 6. But who is the new number 2

image.jpeg.0b8f091685373c2264dc50f21ef31d36.jpeg
 
Should have a few of these chasing the protesters around Hyde Park......

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Well people believe Boris and Gove and Farage so yes people do believe numpties. The biggest supporters of this nonsense are the hard right which is somewhat strange as it is the old and unfit who are at greatest risk. 

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9 minutes ago, CANARYKING said:

Another 468 deaths, this is NOT going away anytime soon

Ok. So what do you suggest? 

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55 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:
image.jpeg.0b8f091685373c2264dc50f21ef31d36.jpeg
 
Should have a few of these chasing the protesters around Hyde Park......

I loved "The Prisoner", wierd stuff but a great series.

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48 minutes ago, T said:

Well people believe Boris and Gove and Farage so yes people do believe numpties. The biggest supporters of this nonsense are the hard right which is somewhat strange as it is the old and unfit who are at greatest risk. 

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53 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Ok. So what do you suggest? 

Start telling the truth (and not only on this subject) Get the PM to face the British people and explain where we are, admit mistakes were made, and roll out a plan - which says we have very vulnerable people we need to protect, and a much younger, healthier population we can ask to go back to work and school etc. And then fire some of the incompetent loyalist agitators from his team. I.e. show some leadership and get the UK population behind his government, because he is going to lose any political battle he may be tempted to wage against Labour and or the EU. Not that I care about what happens to him if he does do that, but I do care about the ongoing damage to the UK if he does.

Edited by Surfer
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15 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Start telling the truth (and not only on this subject) Get the PM to face the British people and explain where we are, admit mistakes were made, and roll out a plan - which says we have very vulnerable people we need to protect, and a much younger, healthier population we can ask to go back to work and school etc. And then fire some of the incompetent loyalist agitators from his team. I.e. show some leadership and get the UK population behind his government, because he is going to lose any political battle he may be tempted to wage against Labour and or the EU. Not that I care about what happens to him if he does do that, but I do care about the ongoing damage to the UK if he does.

Which bit of that will make it go away ‘any time soon’?

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44 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I loved "The Prisoner", wierd stuff but a great series.

Yes, it was, and a great advert for Portmerion, but he didn't really know how to end it. So the last episode is a bit of a mess.

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6 hours ago, sonyc said:

Good call!

Yet I now feel guilty in that I responded this very morning. Of all things about fishing! (Not Corky type fishing but the quotas kind). I had seen a TV piece and replied.

But having said that, in finding a link to that media story I found an amazing article detailing in great depth just how the fishing industry in this country has declined. So, not a waste of time🙂

My type of  Fishing is called Angling.  

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An explanation/update

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/coronavirus-children-kawasaki-disease-symptoms-scarlet-fever-heart-attack-france-a9518271.htm

16th May

" The existing Kawasaki disease leads to an inflammatory response in the body’s immune system causing blood vessels to swell. Symptoms include a fever, rash, red eyes and lips and redness on the palms and soles of the feet.

About 125 children in France, up to 100 in the UK and at least 100 in New York have developed Kawasaki-like symptoms during the coronavirus outbreak, arousing suspicions of a link   ''

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3 hours ago, Mark .Y. said:

No, thats not true.

I was not trying to convince anybody we had a competent government at all. I was making the point that the people who were saying our figures were the worst in Europe may have been mistaken.

I'm pretty certain if you go through all my posts on this thread you will find very little that praises the Government's handling of this crisis.

As usual you refute a point I didn't make and avoid any discussion about the substantive points I did make.

I'm pretty sure you have a firm grasp of the English language and therefore have a clear understanding of the difference in meaning between the verbs to praise and to defend, so you can also take it as read that I take offence at your subsequent accusation of lying.

Throughout this thread you have frequently either explicitly or implicitly (as in this particular case) defended the government by being very dismissive of facts, reports, projections and even opinions which opposed or criticised the official line, and whilst I'm not going to descend to childish name calling I'm afraid that I don't find your statement that you were simply 'making the point that the people who were saying our figures were the worst in Europe may have been mistaken' remotely credible, for several reasons.

It has been abundantly clear for many weeks, and much commented on throughout by experts, pundits and posters that there are inaccuracies, incompleteness, and differing standards in the data being published all over the world, including in the UK. I recall certainly one, and I think, two occasions where I challenged some of your assumptions with what I believe were quite detailed and reasonable observations passed on from people on the front line which you simply dismissed without any discussion beyond you preferring to trust in official statistics rather than real life experience. That, I think, is a prettty fair summary, albeit a generalisation, of your position throughout the last couple of months, right up to the point (long predicted by independent experts) where the UK reached the highest death toll in Europe at which point you suddenly decided that official statistics maybe weren't telling the whole story - they certainly weren't telling the story you wanted to hear anyway, and I hope you'll forgive me for pointing out that your response bears an uncanny resemblance to the government's behaviour, in giving us a daily presentation with a comparison chart that had been on going for almost two months before they decided it was actually premature (??!!) to be making comparisions. Of course the fact that the chart was sending out the opposite message to the one they have been trying to deliver for the last two months wasn't a factor in the decision to stop them at all  😂😂

Whilst I often disagree with your posts I have no real problem with them, per se, but I have a real problem in that any response to them that is critical, dissenting or proposing perhaps an alternative views seems to be interpreted as a personal and/or politically driven attack. Your standard response appears to be find some minor point/misconstrue something/simply make up a point that wasn't ever made, and get greatly offended by it. So offended it appears, that you completely forget to respond to any serioud or substantive issues. If it was a one off then I would shrug my shoulders but this has become a regular feature of your reponses to the extent that, whether you have noticed it or not, I've stopped responding to your posts as it has become clear that it is a complete waste of time since you clearly have no intention of actually debating any of the issues you raise.

In fact, tempting though it was, I didn't even bother to reply directly to your Italian post which by your own admission you expected to draw flak but unfortunately I made the beginner's mistake of referring to it in a response to @sonyc . The context of my post was that I didn't find the 'well we're not as bad as them argument' all that convincing and the responses to that post were very instructive.

@sonyc, as usual, wrote a gracious and informative clarification of the original post which made complete sense.

You, as usual, double downed on being offended, refuted a point that I didn't make and didn't go anywhere near the underlying issue.

So hopefully I won't repeat that mistake but I think I'll take out the insurance policy of blocking you, for no other reason that I'm cross with myself for wasting so much time trying to discuss serious issues with someone who clearly doesn't have any intention entering real discussion or debate.

So cheerio @Mark .Y., I very much hope that you come through this crisis OK and don't suffer any consequences as a result of your refusal, or inability, to engage with the reality of what is surrounding us all at the moment.

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6 hours ago, Mark .Y. said:

I don't mind a reasonable debate about it, that is fine, I objected to the lie that I had made some defence of the UK Government, when quite clearly I had not.

So, do we know how many people have died in Italian or Spanish care homes ?

I'm not bothered about the figures the UK Government puts out or what hte UK Government says, as I have previously said - their communication skills are breathtakingly low. I would just like to see an official figure from both Spain and Italy so we can see for ourselves.

Also, my understanding is that Covid-19 is listed as the cause of death when it is present - whether or not it is the actual cause itself. Is that your understanding too ?   

The thing is the excess death figure in the UK is higher than any other nation in Europe. Any nit picking about data from other countries is clearly appeasing the government line. The figures are clear, see below (again)

 

 

image.png.1c58bf9986b30eda8618b2a441c17b90.png

 

 

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Meanwhile it looks like confidence in the government has collapsed since Johnson's TV address........

image.png.14d17e925814de8751f60a3536bb8928.png

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31 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

 

So hopefully I won't repeat that mistake but I think I'll take out the insurance policy of blocking you, for no other reason that I'm cross with myself for wasting so much time trying to discuss serious issues with someone who clearly doesn't have any intention entering real discussion or debate.

So cheerio @Mark .Y., I very much hope that you come through this crisis OK and don't suffer any consequences as a result of your refusal, or inability, to engage with the reality of what is surrounding us all at the moment.

Why block Mark Y? For sure he isn't as keen to thrown blame around as some and does provide challenge but isnt that a good thing?

If the moderates (and Mark Y is for sure a moderate) are edged out of  theconversation thrn this thread will become a pointless clone of the brexit one and  no one needs that.

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So, to move away from politics....

Anyone with kids (of the right age before you start!) looking to send them back to school. Even of you dont, why would you/why wouldn't you?

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5 hours ago, CANARYKING said:

Another 468 deaths, this is NOT going away anytime soon

*reported deaths...

Check the actual date of death graph and while you're there, the specimin date for the positive deaths as well...

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3 hours ago, Bill said:

An explanation/update

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/coronavirus-children-kawasaki-disease-symptoms-scarlet-fever-heart-attack-france-a9518271.htm

16th May

" The existing Kawasaki disease leads to an inflammatory response in the body’s immune system causing blood vessels to swell. Symptoms include a fever, rash, red eyes and lips and redness on the palms and soles of the feet.

About 125 children in France, up to 100 in the UK and at least 100 in New York have developed Kawasaki-like symptoms during the coronavirus outbreak, arousing suspicions of a link   ''

One known death in the UK. Not enough to prevent the millions of kids from resuming their studies

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Yup, there will always be illness and death, it’s understanding what is unusual and exceptional that matters. Time for the country to return to work and school based on the data we see now.

Edited by Surfer
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7 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

As usual you refute a point I didn't make and avoid any discussion about the substantive points I did make.

I'm pretty sure you have a firm grasp of the English language and therefore have a clear understanding of the difference in meaning between the verbs to praise and to defend, so you can also take it as read that I take offence at your subsequent accusation of lying.

Throughout this thread you have frequently either explicitly or implicitly (as in this particular case) defended the government by being very dismissive of facts, reports, projections and even opinions which opposed or criticised the official line, and whilst I'm not going to descend to childish name calling I'm afraid that I don't find your statement that you were simply 'making the point that the people who were saying our figures were the worst in Europe may have been mistaken' remotely credible, for several reasons.

It has been abundantly clear for many weeks, and much commented on throughout by experts, pundits and posters that there are inaccuracies, incompleteness, and differing standards in the data being published all over the world, including in the UK. I recall certainly one, and I think, two occasions where I challenged some of your assumptions with what I believe were quite detailed and reasonable observations passed on from people on the front line which you simply dismissed without any discussion beyond you preferring to trust in official statistics rather than real life experience. That, I think, is a prettty fair summary, albeit a generalisation, of your position throughout the last couple of months, right up to the point (long predicted by independent experts) where the UK reached the highest death toll in Europe at which point you suddenly decided that official statistics maybe weren't telling the whole story - they certainly weren't telling the story you wanted to hear anyway, and I hope you'll forgive me for pointing out that your response bears an uncanny resemblance to the government's behaviour, in giving us a daily presentation with a comparison chart that had been on going for almost two months before they decided it was actually premature (??!!) to be making comparisions. Of course the fact that the chart was sending out the opposite message to the one they have been trying to deliver for the last two months wasn't a factor in the decision to stop them at all  😂😂

Whilst I often disagree with your posts I have no real problem with them, per se, but I have a real problem in that any response to them that is critical, dissenting or proposing perhaps an alternative views seems to be interpreted as a personal and/or politically driven attack. Your standard response appears to be find some minor point/misconstrue something/simply make up a point that wasn't ever made, and get greatly offended by it. So offended it appears, that you completely forget to respond to any serioud or substantive issues. If it was a one off then I would shrug my shoulders but this has become a regular feature of your reponses to the extent that, whether you have noticed it or not, I've stopped responding to your posts as it has become clear that it is a complete waste of time since you clearly have no intention of actually debating any of the issues you raise.

In fact, tempting though it was, I didn't even bother to reply directly to your Italian post which by your own admission you expected to draw flak but unfortunately I made the beginner's mistake of referring to it in a response to @sonyc . The context of my post was that I didn't find the 'well we're not as bad as them argument' all that convincing and the responses to that post were very instructive.

@sonyc, as usual, wrote a gracious and informative clarification of the original post which made complete sense.

You, as usual, double downed on being offended, refuted a point that I didn't make and didn't go anywhere near the underlying issue.

So hopefully I won't repeat that mistake but I think I'll take out the insurance policy of blocking you, for no other reason that I'm cross with myself for wasting so much time trying to discuss serious issues with someone who clearly doesn't have any intention entering real discussion or debate.

So cheerio @Mark .Y., I very much hope that you come through this crisis OK and don't suffer any consequences as a result of your refusal, or inability, to engage with the reality of what is surrounding us all at the moment.

I don't think I've "usually " done anything other than look beyond these shores for stories that don't just originate from the UK and are often politically biased. I find the political polarisation of both the UKs newspapers and some posters on here a bit over the top so often prefer to try and seek out a more balanced view.  When I find things that appear to disagree with figures/stories in the UK - and if nobody already has referred to them, I like to bring them up as discussion points and to show an alternative point of view. You will find lots of posts from me referring to the CMOs/Scientists from other countries because it fascinates me to see how "experts" can see things in different ways. I have often referred to the Swedish, Dutch and Danish authorities because they have done things in ways that I feel are not being looked at and used in the UK. For example, the Dutch have allowed their children to play together throughout because they believe there is virtually zero risk to kids, I think that our Government should have looked at and copied their example - this is perhaps particularly pertinent now the return to school argument has begun in the UK. That would be a different argument if kids had been playing together throughout, and yes I have seen the latest news on the "Kawasaki" type illness. But in this case the story was from the BBC website so was actually much closer to home and hadn't been referenced on here. I had a particular interest in it because I have watched a lot of Spanish TV and seen a lot of anger about the care home situation there. 

You say above that "Throughout this thread you have frequently either explicitly or implicitly (as in this particular case) defended the government by being very dismissive of facts". Here is your post below, what is the implicit fact that it contains which I disputed ?

 

That's a fair point in some ways although I would like to think (perhaps naively) that we aspire to higher standards than the average football fan (never mind some of the worst) so I don't find the 'well we're not as bad as them argument' all that convincing.

Its a bit like @Mark .Y. desperately trying to construct a defence of this government's handling of the virus crisis by suggesting that our performance maybe wasn't quite as bad as Italy or Spain.

"We would normally compare this country's performance to Germany, France or perhaps Holland and the Nordic countries, i.e. other fairly similar European countries. Frankly if you tried to convince most people that we have a competent government because we are doing slightly better than Italy and Spain then they would assume (quite rightly) that you were taking the p1ss! "

 

I note that you provide no evidence of me repeatedly defending the Government, as I have said previously, I don't think they are doing a great job at all.

One thing I would say is that when I have brought up things and they have been shown to be inaccurate by a well-constructed reply post, I either like that post or I quote it and say something along the lines of "fair point, I hadn't thought of that, or I didn't know that". I have done that with anybody I consider to be a "reasonable" poster including, off the top of my head" VW, sonyc and Yellow Fever. In fact, I can't remember who it was did raise the point after the post we are talking about to say that there are far fewer care homes in Italy and I acknowledged that. 

So, I think you are the first person ever to block me, it's a free world so although I think you have completely misconstrued my motives and politics, there's no complaint from me and I hope you and yours come through all this madness in good shape too.

PS Before anybody says it, I know CM cannot read this if he has blocked me but I thought I had to make my point to the wider population of the message board and if he does ever unblock me, it is here for him.  

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13 hours ago, CANARYKING said:

Another 468 deaths, this is NOT going away anytime soon

This is what bugs me. Nobody seems to be that interested in the fact that we still have by far the largest death rate in the whole of Europe, one of the largest in the world and the infection rate is still enormous. Yet people still want to rush people back to work, fill up the schools again and try and pretend that we are on top of this. Stop the complacency or we will end up back at square one.

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8 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Why block Mark Y? For sure he isn't as keen to thrown blame around as some and does provide challenge but isnt that a good thing?

I thought I explained why...................at some length...................perhaps I didn't make it clear enough????

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