New Labour Leader

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

5 hours ago, horsefly said:

Utter nonsense! This is one very dramatic and unique issue. It in no way indicates that Labour is divided over the general vision their MPs share about the key tasks and direction of the next Labour government. That is perfectly articulated in Jess Phillips' letter (posted by Sonyc above). The Tories by contrast are completely split into warring factions, as evidenced in Braverman's letter full of vitriol about Sunak's "vision".

Let's bookmark this and return after six months of a Starmer premiership, ok?

To lose one frontbencher may be regarded as a misfortune, to lose eight looks like FUBAR.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Rock The Boat

[KiwiScot 1,460]

It only takes a couple of things and the idea any Labour leader can beat the Tories and my prediction Starmer will be thrown under the bus could come early. Add in the mentality they hold that they only need to stop the tories having a majority(PR favouring coalition)

[littleyellowbirdie 2,590]

11 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

I'm not sure about this.   Israel really does need US support.  Note how the (potentially disasterous) hospital raid came only after the US went public with its intelligence assessment. Note also how the new term 'humanitarian pauses' was invented to allow Israel to be seen to abide by US directions.

The US doesn't want to lose more ground to the other big boys in the international relationships game and will bring the war to a halt when it feels it has the right balance. Public feeling will weigh on the balance.

It needs it and it has it. Israel is a strategic ally to the US and also us.

For all the words criticising Israel, everyone in power, including Starmer, understand that this is the only opportunity to get rid of Hamas' stranglehold on Gaza and have half a chance of ending the stalemate and having a two-state peace process kickstarted again. Israel will be allowed to finish the job of deposing Hamas in Gaza come hell or high water, no matter how many protests there are. Personally, I think that's the right call.

Regarding the hospital operation, looks like the IDF has done a pretty good job of working through the place without a catastrophe, or a nakbar if you prefer.

As an aside, there was a lot of talk in Israel before this started about doctors leaving Israel for Europe on the back of Netanyahu's judicial reforms, but the recent experiences of antisemitism by Israeli medical students throughout Europe from their peers has got them thinking twice.

Edited November 16, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,590]

7 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

UN experts had previously warned that the Palestinian people were at “grave risk of genocide”.

 

 

This statement really underlines what a joke the UN has become. Assuming the conflict carried on indefinitely in Gaza at the same rate of civilian deaths, and completely ignoring that this is only in Gaza, not in the West Bank, Israel would wipe out all Palestinians in 55 years. That's ignoring births and natural deaths of course.

As has been said many times though, the word genocide has been banded around for decades against the Israelis, but the Palestinian population has continued to grow.

[Well b back 3,275]

I think somebody should go on the new maths counting thing the darts world are organising in schools. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,590]

41 minutes ago, Well b back said:

I think somebody should go on the new maths counting thing the darts world are organising in schools. 

Go for it. It's never too late to learn.

[Barbe bleu 832]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

 

As has been said many times though, the word genocide has been banded around for decades against the Israelis, but the Palestinian population has continued to grow.

I cant speak with certainty for  people who use the word 'genocide' but they may be using it as a means of referring to ethnic cleansing. 

Whether ethnic cleansing constitutes genocide in international law appears unclear.  It doesn't appear directly in the genocide convention but there is legal opinion that it still counts:

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml

There all be push back I'm sure but I think we can all agree that there is a school of thought among some  (not all) in the Israeli extremes that some of the lands in the levant are a bit too heterogenous

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,590]

30 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I cant speak with certainty for  people who use the word 'genocide' but they may be using it as a means of referring to ethnic cleansing. 

Whether ethnic cleansing constitutes genocide in international law appears unclear.  It doesn't appear directly in the genocide convention but there is legal opinion that it still counts:

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml

There all be push back I'm sure but I think we can all agree that there is a school of thought among some  (not all) in the Israeli extremes that some of the lands in the levant are a bit too heterogenous

 

There's no doubt whatsoever that that school of thought exists among a minority of Israelis. Every society has its extremists. Do not forget that the extremes of the other side of this conflict don't even hide their genocidal aspirations against Israel, nor do they restrict it to Israel, rather to all Jews, which is a call to which a large part of the world's Muslim population supports, and disturbingly so does a significant proportion of academia throughout the west if the failure to deal with antisemitism in universities is anything to go by. Stories of Israeli medical students in universities in tears learning of deaths of friends in Israel being met with laughter from fellow students in classes in European universities? That's an account from Lithuania.

Sovereignty for security was the foundation of the last peace process. Israel offered concessions towards sovereignty for Palestine on a roadmap that would have finished up with a Palestinian state as there could have been in 1948 had the Palestinians acceded to UN181. It's to be lamented that the best Israel would offer was less than the minimum the Palestinians would accept. Even so, there's no question that Palestinians would be better off if they had and if Hamas had not been elected in Gaza then there's a good chance that Israel's own moves to the right in reaction wouldn't have occurred. But we are where we are.

I appreciate your legal insight, but few of those banding the word genocide about are interested in whether it's legally accurate in the context of how the Palestinians have lost out to the Israelis throughout this conflict. It is simply about demonising Israel with emotive terms. As such, I'm not really in favour of giving it any more credence than the little it deserves.

Edited November 16, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[king canary 7,664]

11 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I appreciate your legal insight, but few of those banding the word genocide about are interested in whether it's legally accurate in the context of how the Palestinians have lost out to the Israelis throughout this conflict. It is simply about demonising Israel with emotive terms. As such, I'm not really in favour of giving it any more credence than the little it deserves.

Yes. genocide can be added to the long list of words (violence, racism etc etc) that have been warped beyond all meaning by a very specific pocket of left wingers.

[Yellow Fever 3,821]

19 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yes. genocide can be added to the long list of words (violence, racism etc etc) that have been warped beyond all meaning by a very specific pocket of left wingers.

To be fair KC they get equally warped by the right too - 'Hate' marches!

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[Herman 9,820]

Unfortunately what is going on isn't that far from the actual definition of the word, genocide. 

[Yellow Fever 3,821]

12 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

I cant speak with certainty for  people who use the word 'genocide' but they may be using it as a means of referring to ethnic cleansing. 

Whether ethnic cleansing constitutes genocide in international law appears unclear.  It doesn't appear directly in the genocide convention but there is legal opinion that it still counts:

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml

There all be push back I'm sure but I think we can all agree that there is a school of thought among some  (not all) in the Israeli extremes that some of the lands in the levant are a bit too heterogenous

 

Ye BB - I think 'ethnic cleansing' is exactly the case Israel has now to answer for both the West Bank and Gaza.

This by the way below is the UN definition of genocide. It does not have to be 'complete' (oddly if only to play devils advocate with some of the odd arguments on here, the holocaust clearly did not everywhere exterminate the Jews (there were 3 million in the US for starters) - however nobody serious would not call it a genocide of the Jews within the Third Reich.)

The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. It does not include political groups or so called “cultural genocide”.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[littleyellowbirdie 2,590]

4 hours ago, Herman said:

Unfortunately what is going on isn't that far from the actual definition of the word, genocide. 

In your opinion, which funnily enough isn't based on much reliable information.

Ironically, nobody has yet pointed out that the systematic murder of entire communities by Hamas in the kibbutzes in Israel actually was genocide by the definition raised here..

Edited November 17, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[horsefly 4,310]

On 16/11/2023 at 03:02, Rock The Boat said:

Labour falling apart before they even get into government. At least the Tories waited until they were in power.

Indeed! Just look how badly they are falling apart. The latest poll is now predicting a Labour gain of only a mere 303 seats. 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/rishi-sunak-s-tories-in-total-freefall-as-poll-predicts-303-seat-loss-and-reform-surge/ar-AA1k4mpI?ocid=msedgntp&pc=LCTS&cvid=0b0bb6b7bc38402aa490308ba50ad6d8&ei=17

 

[dylanisabaddog 4,975]

27 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Indeed! Just look how badly they are falling apart. The latest poll is now predicting a Labour gain of only a mere 303 seats. 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/rishi-sunak-s-tories-in-total-freefall-as-poll-predicts-303-seat-loss-and-reform-surge/ar-AA1k4mpI?ocid=msedgntp&pc=LCTS&cvid=0b0bb6b7bc38402aa490308ba50ad6d8&ei=17

 

If that happens the House of Commons will resemble Carrow Road with a tiny number of Tories tucked away in one corner. I'm thinking Rotherham on a Tuesday night. 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

2 hours ago, horsefly said:

Indeed! Just look how badly they are falling apart. The latest poll is now predicting a Labour gain of only a mere 303 seats. 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/rishi-sunak-s-tories-in-total-freefall-as-poll-predicts-303-seat-loss-and-reform-surge/ar-AA1k4mpI?ocid=msedgntp&pc=LCTS&cvid=0b0bb6b7bc38402aa490308ba50ad6d8&ei=17

 

An army who's generals quit on the eve of battle is not much of an army.

[Well b back 3,275]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

An army who's generals quit on the eve of battle is not much of an army.

Not sure if that’s aimed at those voting for a ceasefire, but there were 59 Tories that did not vote against a ceasefire, Braverman being one of them.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

5 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Not sure if that’s aimed at those voting for a ceasefire, but there were 59 Tories that did not vote against a ceasefire, Braverman being one of them.

No vote was recorded for Braverman either way. On the other hand fifty-six Labour MPs voted against the party whip which the Independent describes as 'a major rebellion'. If this is what its like now, what chaos awaits us when Labour is in power? Starmer has lost control already. Makes the Tories look well behaved, which shows how bad it is.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

39 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

No vote was recorded for Braverman either way. On the other hand fifty-six Labour MPs voted against the party whip which the Independent describes as 'a major rebellion'. If this is what its like now, what chaos awaits us when Labour is in power? Starmer has lost control already. Makes the Tories look well behaved, which shows how bad it is.

I don't think this was anything other than a conscience vote and I believe Starmer probably wanted to vote for it but is politicing instead.

[Well b back 3,275]

59 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

No vote was recorded for Braverman either way. On the other hand fifty-six Labour MPs voted against the party whip which the Independent describes as 'a major rebellion'. If this is what its like now, what chaos awaits us when Labour is in power? Starmer has lost control already. Makes the Tories look well behaved, which shows how bad it is.

But a ceasefire is supported by 80% now of the U.K. public, hence they are now going even further ahead in the polls. It is also fair to say that the U.K. are now almost on their own in not calling for a ceasefire, at least for a period of time. Now I am assuming that Israel will soon be providing evidence of a command centre under the hospital, but if they don’t, can’t or won’t then this will soon be over.

If I have read it right the families of the hostages are now saying that the killing needs to stop, to get their loved ones back.

Surely we can both accept that Braverman is a bit of a hypocrite when she calls those marching in support of a ceasefire hate marchers, then obstains from voting against a ceasefire. 
I appreciate most in parliament obstained, but in the cold light of day only 40% of parliament voted against a ceasefire.

[Nuff Said 5,175]

6 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

In your opinion, which funnily enough isn't based on much reliable information.

Ironically, nobody has yet pointed out that the systematic murder of entire communities by Hamas in the kibbutzes in Israel actually was genocide by the definition raised here..

Wasting time trying to have a sensible debate with you, but as the post above yours makes clear, genocide is about intent, as well as results. There is something in what you say about Hamas but in that case, do you agree your earlier statements here are irrelevant, or actually wrong.

On 16/11/2023 at 20:39, littleyellowbirdie said:

This statement really underlines what a joke the UN has become. Assuming the conflict carried on indefinitely in Gaza at the same rate of civilian deaths, and completely ignoring that this is only in Gaza, not in the West Bank, Israel would wipe out all Palestinians in 55 years. That's ignoring births and natural deaths of course.

As has been said many times though, the word genocide has been banded around for decades against the Israelis, but the Palestinian population has continued to grow.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,590]

13 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Wasting time trying to have a sensible debate with you, but as the post above yours makes clear, genocide is about intent, as well as results. There is something in what you say about Hamas but in that case, do you agree your earlier statements here are irrelevant, or actually wrong.

 

I do so love these throwaway comments about 'sensible debates'. A sensible debate about a two-sided conflict doesn't finish up with people somehow managing to steer absolutely everything to be Israel's fault, which is the tendency on this thread. I've repeatedly criticised things within Israel including the situation in the West Bank; the only difference is I've bothered  to consider their point of view in this conflict at all unlike many of these presumably 'sensible debaters' who take exception to people defending Israel.

As you say, it's about intent. Intent was absolutely clear in terms of targeting civilians on October 7th, far less so in the current conflict in Gaza. Israel itself has conceded that it hasn't done as well as it should have on minimising civilian casuaties. I will say that I think it's about right that the international community does put the pressure on to allow more aid to flow at this stage.

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

Breaking News:

Matt Taibbi reports on secret black ops unit embedded in Labour Party to spread fake news and disinformation, seeking to cancel not just the Right but also those on the far left. This is our next government.

 

 

https://www.racket.news/p/uk-files-reports-show-both-left-and

[horsefly 4,310]

6 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Breaking News:

Matt Taibbi reports on secret black ops unit embedded in Labour Party to spread fake news and disinformation, seeking to cancel not just the Right but also those on the far left. This is our next government.

 

 

https://www.racket.news/p/uk-files-reports-show-both-left-and

You're such a sucker for conspiracy theory crap. Haven't you got something from Russel Brand, he's exactly your type of hero?

Edited November 18, 2023 by horsefly

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

One person keeps on and on and on and every topic is consumed with unbelievable hatred.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

Angela Rayner poses for British Vogue in an outfit worth £3,570

Champagne socialist in frock that would stock a food bank for a week says b*****r the little people.

[Herman 9,820]

The politics of envy are an ugly thing Rocky. 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

3 hours ago, Herman said:

The politics of envy are an ugly thing Rocky. 

Mate, I wouldn't look good in that outfit, trust me.

[Daz Sparks 1,182]

10 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

Angela Rayner poses for British Vogue in an outfit worth £3,570

Champagne socialist in frock that would stock a food bank for a week says b*****r the little people.

I thought you gammon were fond of a champagne or 2. 

By the way, it seems that the clothes were borrowed, after all. 

[Herman 9,820]

53 minutes ago, Daz Sparks said:

I thought you gammon were fond of a champagne or 2. 

By the way, it seems that the clothes were borrowed, after all. 

Even as someone that has never read it I still know how a Vogue photo shoot works so I assume his outrage is all for effect. 😉