Fen Canary 823 Posted September 4, 2021 2 hours ago, horsefly said: And do point out where I said we didn't have a referendum. And note, as Squit has corrected you, it was a referendum to remain in the EEC NOT a vote join it in the first place, perhaps you'd like to thank him for putting you straight on that FACT. Apologies, complete brain fade there of course the original referendum was about remaining rather than joining. However my poor memory doesn’t mean the point of my argument is wrong. What people were voting on that day with the common market was vastly different to what the EU would become. You could argue that the voters didn’t actually know what they were voting for, and the fact those that were old enough to vote in the original referendum heavily backed leave second time around suggests many felt they were mislead originally Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,300 Posted September 4, 2021 Just now, Van wink said: Quack 😉 Oh dear! Tiny Winkie's dementia bad again today I see. How very sad! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midlands Yellow 3,984 Posted September 4, 2021 How much have we saved so far since leaving and did they build any super hospitals as promised? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A Load of Squit 5,162 Posted September 4, 2021 18 minutes ago, Fen Canary said: Apologies, complete brain fade there of course the original referendum was about remaining rather than joining. However my poor memory doesn’t mean the point of my argument is wrong. What people were voting on that day with the common market was vastly different to what the EU would become. You could argue that the voters didn’t actually know what they were voting for, and the fact those that were old enough to vote in the original referendum heavily backed leave second time around suggests many felt they were mislead originally None of the above excuses that you voted to leave without knowing how it was going to happen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kirku 1,332 Posted September 4, 2021 18 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said: How much have we saved so far since leaving and did they build any super hospitals as promised? No, but Javid announced he was on his way to open one of the "new" hospitals. Turns out they'd just rearranged the mops in the janitors cupboard.. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midlands Yellow 3,984 Posted September 4, 2021 15 minutes ago, kirku said: No, but Javid announced he was on his way to open one of the "new" hospitals. Turns out they'd just rearranged the mops in the janitors cupboard.. These things take time, as long as they all keep to their word. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,300 Posted September 4, 2021 1 minute ago, Fen Canary said: Apologies, complete brain fade there of course the original referendum was about remaining rather than joining. However my poor memory doesn’t mean the point of my argument is wrong. What people were voting on that day with the common market was vastly different to what the EU would become. You could argue that the voters didn’t actually know what they were voting for, and the fact those that were old enough to vote in the original referendum heavily backed leave second time around suggests many felt they were mislead originally Fair enough! But the facts remain that we are a representative democracy and we vote governments in to lead the country and make policy decisions on our behalf. We get the opportunity to vote any government out if we don't feel it has represented us appropriately. Regarding your point about people not knowing what they were voting for in the original vote to remain, it certainly holds as much for the brexit vote as it does for that one. There are countless of examples all over the net of people saying they didn't realise what they were voting for (unsurprisingly many of those are the farmers, SME owners, fishermen, etc who are now realising the consequences of that uniformed vote). A smiling Dominic Cummings took great delight in relating his brexit campaign's manipulation and dissembling in his interview with Emily Maitlis. Government by referendums is destined to be ill-informed, incoherent, and devisive. Many US state governors will tell you that their governance is paralysed by conflicting referendum votes (e.g. votes for enhanced infrastructure projects typically go hand in hand with votes for radical tax cuts). Further, government by referendum by its very nature represents what John Stuart Mill described as the "tyrany of the majority over the minority" which is antithetical to a fundamental principle of democracy that all citizens have a right to have their views respected and represented insofar as they respect that same right in the case of others. A governmental system able to resist simple majority thinking is essential if a proper respect for the interests of minorities is to be maintained. An inevitably ill-informed referendum was an appalling way to make such a fundamental decision on the future of this country, but that is what happened and we do indeed now have to find some way to live with that decision and mitigate against the damage that it is already doing to the economy and social fabric of the UK. Even the government's own reports identify that brexit will seriously damage the economy for more than a decade; and the divisions it is generating between the different parts of the UK will almost certainly lead to a prolonged and messy split up of the Union. As yet we have not got close to experiencing the full effects of this appalling brexit deal because large parts of it have still yet to be implemented or enforced. Very worryingly the evidence of those parts that have been implemented point to a potential disaster if the government continues to push its populist hard brexit line. Making the "best of it" will require resisting the follies of that self-defeating dogma. There is much that still can be done to lessen the harms that brexit threatens. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,300 Posted September 4, 2021 23 minutes ago, kirku said: No, but Javid announced he was on his way to open one of the "new" hospitals. Turns out they'd just rearranged the mops in the janitors cupboard.. Yep! Not a new mop to be seen anywhere! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kirku 1,332 Posted September 4, 2021 7 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said: These things take time, as long as they all keep to their word. If you're referring to the current government, their track record on "keeping their word" is absolutely horrendous Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,300 Posted September 4, 2021 8 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said: These things take time, as long as they all keep to their word. Well they've already broken that word. Did you not see the leaked government email to NHS managers saying that the development or refurbishment of a single wing was supposed to be described as the building of a "new hospital"? It's worth following this doctor to keep up to date with NHS issues : Dr Julia Grace Patterson  @JujuliaGrace Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midlands Yellow 3,984 Posted September 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, kirku said: If you're referring to the current government, their track record on "keeping their word" is absolutely horrendous To be fair to Boris he’s had a lot on his plate (wedding and raising a new family) since taking over as PM. Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt. Glad Cummins left though as he seemed slightly dodgy especially during lockdown. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kirku 1,332 Posted September 4, 2021 8 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said: To be fair to Boris he’s had a lot on his plate (wedding and raising a new family) since taking over as PM. Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt. Glad Cummins left though as he seemed slightly dodgy especially during lockdown. Is this parody? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midlands Yellow 3,984 Posted September 4, 2021 Just now, kirku said: Is this parody? Quite the opposite. He’s prone to the odd gaff but shouldn’t we cut him a bit of slack? He’s led the country on the front foot during this pandemic. Unlike footballers in Project Restart he never turned up when addressing the nation with the latest designer haircut. In fact some days he didn’t even bother combing if you look back at clips. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yellow Fever 3,783 Posted September 4, 2021 This is all past history - but a lot has been written and analyzed about the Brexit vote quite neutrally. For instance : - https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-low-skills-and-lack-opportunities I also seem to to recall that the 'modal' or typical Brexity voter could be imagined as a retired, poorly educated East Anglian. I remember that national view as it is obviously quite local for us! That said - if you read any of the Brexit analysis its fairly obvious why many of these (not all) would be heavily invested in, and reluctant to change their minds. The unskilled left behind remain the unskilled left behind (looking for somebody to blame) and the economically inactive remain the economically inactive - remote from Brexit issues. Frankly it's in the nature of the beast. For me - the real interesting thing about the recent poll was that if anything it has turned against Brexit - i.e. the so called mythical benefits just haven't materialized - and many of the frankly rational remainers that could have been persuaded by ANY Brexit successes - well have simply written it off as a dud choice.  Make the best of it - yes of course. Doesn't mean it was right. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,679 Posted September 4, 2021 Going to have to break their promises about tax rises as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigFish 1,986 Posted September 4, 2021 2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said: This is all past history - but a lot has been written and analyzed about the Brexit vote quite neutrally. For instance : - https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-low-skills-and-lack-opportunities I also seem to to recall that the 'modal' or typical Brexity voter could be imagined as a retired, poorly educated East Anglian. I remember that national view as it is obviously quite local for us! That said - if you read any of the Brexit analysis its fairly obvious why many of these (not all) would be heavily invested in, and reluctant to change their minds. The unskilled left behind remain the unskilled left behind (looking for somebody to blame) and the economically inactive remain the economically inactive - remote from Brexit issues. Frankly it's in the nature of the beast. For me - the real interesting thing about the recent poll was that if anything it has turned against Brexit - i.e. the so called mythical benefits just haven't materialized - and many of the frankly rational remainers that could have been persuaded by ANY Brexit successes - well have simply written it off as a dud choice.  Make the best of it - yes of course. Doesn't mean it was right. I don't swallow Goodwin's analysis of a "left behind" cohort in England being the driver for Brexit. Brexit was an ideological paradigm driven by extreme neo-liberals and grifters like Farage for whom the "left behind", being a little chippy about the idea that even if their lives had improved (as most lives did from the 80s) there were others who had done better (often foreign) and less educated, were useful fools who could be manipulated. This aging demographic is literally dieing out and being replaced by a better educated, more liberal one. It is slow work, as seen by Johnson's support being doggedly around 40% but it is happening. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rock The Boat 1,332 Posted September 4, 2021 6 hours ago, keelansgrandad said: Going to have to break their promises about tax rises as well. Yep, Cameron and Johnson are both Blairites. Not conservative at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
A Load of Squit 5,162 Posted September 5, 2021 It's all right Frosty mate, we knew you've negotiated a really sh!t deal, you don't have to remind us. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/04/lord-frost-irish-sea-row-risks-damaging-uk-eu-relations-long-term David Frost: Irish Sea row risks damaging UK-EU relations long term Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,300 Posted September 5, 2021 (edited) Sky News reader sums up the ‘apocalyptic’ state of post-Brexit Britain in just 17 seconds https://www.msn.com/en-gb/foodanddrink/other/sky-news-reader-sums-up-the-apocalyptic-state-of-post-brexit-britain-in-just-17-seconds/ar-AAO5D8d?ocid=msedgntp So-called "Project fear" turns out to be actual, "project I told you this is what would happen you ignorant, lying bast*ards" Edited September 5, 2021 by horsefly 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,300 Posted September 5, 2021 Polling guru Curtice issues harrowing double independence threat to Boris Johnson BORIS Johnson's Brexit deal has "fragmented" the Unionist vote, raising the prospect of Sinn Fein's Michelle O'Neill becoming Northern Ireland's First Minister next year in a move that would increase the pressure for a poll on the question of Irish unity, pollster Sir John Curtice has said. The current situation was one of the consequences of the Prime Minister’s Brexit deal, Sir John suggested. He added: “By basically selling out on what the DUP wanted for Northern Ireland and accepting the idea of there being checks down the Irish Sea, he basically screwed the DUP and is suffering the consequences. Referring to Nicola Sturgeon, he said: “It could mean that not only could Boris Johnson face a First Minister in Scotland who wants to get out of the United Kingdom but he could also face a First Minister in Northern Ireland that also wants to get out of the United Kingdom. https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1486459/Brexit-news-boris-johnson-northern-ireland-independence-scotland-sir-john-curtice-latest 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PurpleCanary 5,558 Posted September 5, 2021 On 03/09/2021 at 23:35, BigFish said: For clarity's sake my point was the debate was pointless and the public are bored of it. That it is not to say that Brexit has been anything other than a catastrophic failure, whatever criteria is used. Suez marked the end of the UK as a world power, although in fact it was only making plain what already in fact the case. Brexit and Afghanistan marks the UK's retreat from the position of a major second order power. Currently we can only accept this until such time as an alternative arrangements can gain support and that will only be possible after further national decline. Only at that point can @PurpleCanary and @Yellow Fever's solutions be implemented. In truth there is no alternative, that is what making the best of it means to me. BF, I was mainly thinking of Leave voters who have argued that the thing to do now is to work to make the best of it. While I am on, I saw this in Will Hutton's column in the Observer today: Social scientist Bobby Duffy writes in his subtle and compelling book Generations that we should drop generational myths – that, for example, baby boomers are all selfish, unreflective, hedonistic beneficiaries of the postwar boom. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Surfer 1,547 Posted September 5, 2021 (edited) There are lots of things we can do about this Brexit, but all start with a new non-Tory government. Freedom of Movement Customs Union Single Market Common Currency European Army Reciprocal education Portable pensions Irish re-unification All independent ideas that could be debated on their merits and we could choose to adopt any one or all of them. Edited September 5, 2021 by Surfer 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigFish 1,986 Posted September 5, 2021 44 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said: BF, I was mainly thinking of Leave voters who have argued that the thing to do now is to work to make the best of it. While I am on, I saw this in Will Hutton's column in the Observer today: Social scientist Bobby Duffy writes in his subtle and compelling book Generations that we should drop generational myths – that, for example, baby boomers are all selfish, unreflective, hedonistic beneficiaries of the postwar boom. As you might expect no disagreement here. Interesting article from Hutton, agreed with most that too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keelansgrandad 6,679 Posted September 5, 2021 22 hours ago, Rock The Boat said: Yep, Cameron and Johnson are both Blairites. Not conservative at all. Whereas Blair certainly was at the end. Cameron was like a Camborne girl, he couldn't say no. Johnson isn't anything more than a sycophant. Â Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kirku 1,332 Posted September 6, 2021 The UK is the only country in north west Europe to suffer from declining exports since the Brexit vote in 2016, according to new research. The House of Commons Library analysis, using IMF data, shows that every neighbouring European country has increased its exports over the past five years except for the UK. The Commons data shows the UK saw a decline in exports of -5.5% over five years, putting it behind 13 neighbouring countries: Ireland (+48.1%), Finland (+18.8%), Sweden (+15.5%), the Netherlands (+15%), Denmark (+14%), Luxembourg (+13.6%), Austria (+11.1%), Germany (+9.5%), Switzerland (+7.5%), France (+6.7%), Belgium (+6.2%), Norway (+4.8%) and Iceland (+0.8%). 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,300 Posted September 6, 2021 Absurdly stubborn hard brexiteers in this government seem insistent on ensuring the deal is as calamatous as it is possible to be: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/it-s-not-just-hgv-drivers-the-10-jobs-where-people-are-needed-most-as-uk-faces-vacancy-crisis/ar-AAO8Xvr?ocid=msedgntp Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,300 Posted September 7, 2021 https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/millions-of-vegetables-thrown-away-as-labour-shortages-hit-farmers/ar-AAO9DFA?ocid=msedgntp Millions of vegetables thrown away as labour shortages hit farmers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herman 9,764 Posted September 8, 2021 A brexit positive. Â Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Apples 1,320 Posted September 8, 2021 Taking back control was all about being able to sh*t on our own doorstep if we wanted (despite secretly knowing we didn't really want it), trample it around, find out it we didn't really like it, complain about it and then still manage to blame everybody else...it's the great thing what made this here great country great again. 💩🤣 Still, at least we've now got plenty of flags to help mop it all up. Apples 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
horsefly 4,300 Posted September 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Mr Apples said: Taking back control was all about being able to sh*t on our own doorstep if we wanted (despite secretly knowing we didn't really want it), trample it around, find out it we didn't really like it, complain about it and then still manage to blame everybody else...it's the great thing what made this here great country great again. 💩🤣 Still, at least we've now got plenty of flags to help mop it all up. Apples Hey Apples! think a bit more laterally, we could stick a flag in each turd and that way swimmers can take avoiding action when they encounter them in our seas and rivers. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites