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Will you be giving him 10 games next season Broadstairs? (Assuming it’s in the Prem).

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23 minutes ago, Trevor Hockey's Beard said:

At least fickle posters are positive some of the time.

I'm positive all of the time Trevor; in fact I'm a fully paid up Happy Clapper!

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18 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

It does become a problem when fickle fans are sarcastically cheering the keeper and shouting “ just get it forward”. 

Whenever I type fickle on this board, it wants to substitute the words 'ignorant and impatient'...😇

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Hard to judge, but I suspect if they had kept Webber Huddersfield would have bought a better quality of player. I cant even remember now but isnt that where pritchard went?

And to be fair, they survived the first season.

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20 minutes ago, glory.win or die. said:

Hard to judge, but I suspect if they had kept Webber Huddersfield would have bought a better quality of player. I cant even remember now but isnt that where pritchard went?

And to be fair, they survived the first season.

Just. They won 3 of the 20 league fixtures from Xmas 2017 to the end of the season.

This season, just three wins in 31 matches.

January 2018's window brought Pritchard but the transfer dealings through the Summer and this January were woeful.

Seeing what Webber has done here, I agree gwor and I would be bold enough to say he has been the difference in the fortunes of both teams - and is likely to outstrip even what McNasty achieved if he stays as long...

 

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Agree with everything that has been said here and the psychoanalyst in me wants to summarise why we are different from Huddersfield (if we are promoted) so here we go:

  • We have a larger support base and better infrastructure (including academy) than Huddersfield 
  • Farke has a totally different football philosophy to Wagner - this is seen in our results as compared to Huddersfield's in the Championship
  • We have a younger squad overall, with players who are constantly improving
  • Webber and his recruitment/scouting team - honestly, this could be the biggest difference. When Huddersfield were promoted and Wagner performed a miracle to keep them there, while we languished in 14th a league below, I believed we had taken the wrong prize from the Terriers. How wrong was I? 

I also think that the realistic targets and goals and future plans for the club have been expertly communicated to fans by the management. I cannot think of a time when we have been promoted and I haven't thought "well, now lets consolidate in this league and establish ourselves, sure this will cost XX millions of pounds, but we are in the premier league now - we have to spend big to achieve big". Not this time.

I would be totally fine if we were relegated straight back down, provided we didn't spend huge chunk of money on absolute s**t. If we give our young players game time and chances to develop - sure we will lose a load of them, but for whopping great fees. We could then scout and challenge for the Championship title again, as we have this season. Webber and Farke have assured me that the mistakes of the past will not be replicated and I, for the first time in a long time, am looking forward to a long and bright future for us.

 

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11 hours ago, Drazen Muzinic said:

Whenever I type fickle on this board, it wants to substitute the words 'ignorant and impatient'...😇

You need to programme your Auto-correct DM. Fickle fans are the ones whose positivity and level of satisfaction waxes and wanes purely with results; they are identified by the speed with which they climb on the latest bandwagon, only to leap off again the moment it slows down. The "get it forward" brigade in contrast are not at all fickle; they know what they like and nothing will shift them. They like old fashioned centre backs, two up front, and view midfield like east coast US Democrats view the mid-West -- just somewhere to be flown over. 

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Counterpoint- being willing to change your mind based on what you see is not fickle and much better than dogmatically sticking to one point of view despite everything.

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33 minutes ago, king canary said:

Counterpoint- being willing to change your mind based on what you see is not fickle and much better than dogmatically sticking to one point of view despite everything.

Quite right kc. Being fickle is the antithesis of adjusting belief to evidence. To quote the Cambridge Dictionary:

"Fickle: likely to change opinions or feelings suddenly and without good reason".

But your "what you see" doesn't quite capture it. Fickle fans "see" alright, but only scorelines and league positions.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, CanaryChris said:

Agree with everything that has been said here and the psychoanalyst in me wants to summarise why we are different from Huddersfield (if we are promoted) so here we go:

  • We have a larger support base and better infrastructure (including academy) than Huddersfield 
  • Farke has a totally different football philosophy to Wagner - this is seen in our results as compared to Huddersfield's in the Championship
  • We have a younger squad overall, with players who are constantly improving
  • Webber and his recruitment/scouting team - honestly, this could be the biggest difference. When Huddersfield were promoted and Wagner performed a miracle to keep them there, while we languished in 14th a league below, I believed we had taken the wrong prize from the Terriers. How wrong was I? 

I also think that the realistic targets and goals and future plans for the club have been expertly communicated to fans by the management. I cannot think of a time when we have been promoted and I haven't thought "well, now lets consolidate in this league and establish ourselves, sure this will cost XX millions of pounds, but we are in the premier league now - we have to spend big to achieve big". Not this time.

I would be totally fine if we were relegated straight back down, provided we didn't spend huge chunk of money on absolute s**t. If we give our young players game time and chances to develop - sure we will lose a load of them, but for whopping great fees. We could then scout and challenge for the Championship title again, as we have this season. Webber and Farke have assured me that the mistakes of the past will not be replicated and I, for the first time in a long time, am looking forward to a long and bright future for us.

 

Agree with nearly all of this. I would add that because of "larger support base and better infrastructure" together with a much better commercial operation, we are in a position to buy and pay more expensive players without threatening our long-term viability. They key as you identify is not over-committing. Our "core" non-TV enhanced revenue, is far higher.

Edited by Badger
Corrected mistake
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Posted (edited)

The focus on money ignores factors that are just as, or even more, important, factors that have created a top of the table team out of, in monetary terms, a low value squad. Whether we can afford to buy higher quality is not the issue; it is how to best utilise whatever funds are available without destroying the real basis of our success. 

Edited by westcoastcanary
Typo
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1 hour ago, westcoastcanary said:

Quite right kc. Being fickle is the antithesis of adjusting belief to evidence. To quote the Cambridge Dictionary:

"Fickle: likely to change opinions or feelings suddenly and without good reason".

But your "what you see" doesn't quite capture it. Fickle fans "see" alright, but only scorelines and league positions.

Scorelines and league positions are quite important to be fair- the whole point of the sport is to win games after all...

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50 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said:

The focus on money ignores factors that are just as, or even more, important, factors that have created a top of the table team out of, in monetary terms, a low value squad. Whether we can afford to buy higher quality is not the issue; it is how to best utilise whatever funds are available without destroying the real basis of our success. 

This, 100%.  The move to be sustainable and get the club working as well as possible within it's means, is proving itself as we watch.  So we are not super rich, but all the pant wetting about not having money to spend has been proven to be just that - pant wetting.  The club is now on the kind of footing we are presumably all happy about - it is functioning at it's best in pretty much all departments.  

Maintaining that healthy situation is not going to be easy as we move forwards, but we look as if we have the next three or four years at least to develop things with the present hierachy in place.  What happens after that is anyone's guess, Huddersfield have lost their way - but our stability as a club is strong and even if DS/MJW were to step aside, or if any of the management team move on, it looks as if they have in place a structure and ethos that will stand the test of time.  

One thing is for sure - money can be a help, but is not the be all and end all for having a successful club.  Get the right ethos, the right kind of players and a belief that what you are doing can be successful and the sky is the limit.

 

 

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51 minutes ago, king canary said:

Scorelines and league positions are quite important to be fair- the whole point of the sport is to win games after all...

Cream rises to the top but that doesn't mean that being top is what constitutes cream. 

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56 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said:

Cream rises to the top but that doesn't mean that being top is what constitutes cream. 

So the team who finishes top isn't the best team? Not sure I can get on board with that.

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2 hours ago, westcoastcanary said:

The focus on money ignores factors that are just as, or even more, important, factors that have created a top of the table team out of, in monetary terms, a low value squad. Whether we can afford to buy higher quality is not the issue; it is how to best utilise whatever funds are available without destroying the real basis of our success. 

Agree fully but just making the point that we're in a stronger position than Huddersfield all round.

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I don't know how the post got to fickle fans but surely it has to be acknowledged that if we are in the Prem next season and suffering defeats on a regular basis then the mood will change to doom and gloom. Some fans will always want to see football as they think it should be played and who knows it may come back into fashion. But I think we would all be a little downcast if we do suffer. But after 24 hours the mood changes. Perhaps some posters should reflect before they type.

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As 1 or 2 posters rightly said, cant compare us to Huddersfield at all, aside from the Webber connection. Dont get me wrong, Huddersfield have done well getting promotion and having two seasons in the Prem. but yes, they actually spent much more on players than us, while not having a Man. City or Chelsea sized pot to play with, nevertheless that pot  dwarfed City's in comparison. In fact, we are on the cusp of the Prem at a time when as a club we have gone thru a momentous upheaval in terms of playing staff, management staff changes and drastic reduction in the overall finance. Dont think any other club could even remotely achieve that in this day and age except NCFC. I agree that we have perhaps more similarities to Southampton than Huddersfield, even then its only a small  comparison.

Apart from the amazing ability to pluck unknown talent from places we would not even think of, Webber is all about Academy and its that which really sets us apart from Huddersfield. At a time when every other part of the club came under the knife, the Academy at Colney got an uplift. How shrewd that move has proved.

Lets get into the Prem first, absolutely Leeds and SU will fight us tooth and nail to the last kick of the season. Then look forward to the Prem. Its strange, but under the set up we have now, relegation from the Prem will be no big deal for me this time around. Lets face it, with the huge overhaul and restructure we have been thru the last 2 years, we should not be allowed anywhere near the Prem, it should not be feasibly possible, but once again, our club defy conventional wisdom and are doing just that.

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Posted (edited)

"Fickle Fans" as a concept is a nonsense. Generally people that go when we are in the Premier League, and then don't go when we get relegated  aren't really fans as most of us would define them. Anyone having an issue with this is not realistic.  The fact is a successful team will have bigger gates then if they aren't doing so well. I've had a season ticket for years, but let me tell you under Hamilton I stopped going. I kept my ticket, but couldn't bear to watch it every week. 

The other definitions of "fickle" is where someone either disagrees with a viewpoint, or simply voices a concern within a context. Again, this isn't fickle. I would suggest that anyone that thinks it is , is wrong. 

By way of an example I was at Millwall last season . Our performance was dire. So much so that the Club immediately acknowledged how terrible it had been,  by nipping out and signing Hanley. EVERYONE walking out of the ground was moaning. Were they / we fickle to do so ? Of course not. We voiced how we felt at the time. Anyone posting on message boards that night would have been less than positive. So what? 

I'm amused by folks saying they have always been positive about the team and the club:  Indirectly mocking those that have expressed concerns. Good luck to them. The fans that may have a case are those that get on the buses at 5 in the morning to travel to Sunderland ,  when we were mid table. These fans are truly amazing supporters, but equally those that don't make these trips are not fickle.   

Right now we are playing football of a quality at the moment, the like of which I haven't seen for years. Did I see it coming? Absolutely not. Am I fickle? Nope. Am I enjoying it ? Yes. Have I renewed my season ticket? Silly question. 

 

Edited by Graham Paddons Beard
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2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

........... surely it has to be acknowledged that if we are in the Prem next season and suffering defeats on a regular basis then the mood will change to doom and gloom.

Yes, but why? What possible reason would there be for "doom and gloom"? We are in a good place, and would remain in a good place even if we were to end up relegated after one season in the EPL. 

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Yes, but why? What possible reason would there be for "doom and gloom"? We are in a good place, and would remain in a good place even if we were to end up relegated after one season in the EPL. 

Because even with the best will in the world, it is hard to sustain a smile if your team is losing regularly. Of course we would be in a good place in all other respects but it certainly makes my weekend when we have won but the mood is less joyous after a reverse.

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8 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Yes, but why? What possible reason would there be for "doom and gloom"? We are in a good place, and would remain in a good place even if we were to end up relegated after one season in the EPL. 

Because even with the best will in the world, it is hard to sustain a smile if your team is losing regularly. Of course we would be in a good place in all other respects but it certainly makes my weekend when we have won but the mood is less joyous after a reverse.

I think it would be a case of if we're getting tanked week in week out people might struggle. But I think most fans are reasonable enough (ignoring the facebook group) to know we'll lose more than we'll win there.

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9 hours ago, king canary said:

Counterpoint- being willing to change your mind based on what you see is not fickle and much better than dogmatically sticking to one point of view despite everything.

Changing minds is quite topical it seems.How many times have we changed our minds in three years? Yet it seems for every person changing their mind you will find another telling them it's not allowed. And that's not just over football....

This particular argument for me is exactly how you see it Kingo. If we lose and are near the bottom of the league the football is rubbish and changes need to be made from the board downwards. If we're winning and at the top of the league the football is fine and we want people that we previously wanted gone to sign new contracts. Presumably so we can want them gone again as soon as the next losing run happens.

Some might view that as fickle though...

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17 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Changing minds is quite topical it seems.How many times have we changed our minds in three years? Yet it seems for every person changing their mind you will find another telling them it's not allowed. And that's not just over football....

This particular argument for me is exactly how you see it Kingo. If we lose and are near the bottom of the league the football is rubbish and changes need to be made from the board downwards. If we're winning and at the top of the league the football is fine and we want people that we previously wanted gone to sign new contracts. Presumably so we can want them gone again as soon as the next losing run happens.

Some might view that as fickle though...

Question is nutty, can you be a fickle fickle fan, or are fickle fans irremediably fickle? (I think that deserves a Parliamentary debate, don't you?)

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Interesting how we as fans would measure success.  The club might view 17th next season (in the Prem!) as a success, but as fans, would it be seen that way? I've heard people saying they'd rather have a season like we're having than be in the Premier League.

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3 hours ago, Michael Starr said:

I'm just happy that we'll leap frog Alex "jump ship" Pritchard this Summer. Grass greener much?

Genuinely believe he did us a huge favour and we got decent money for him too. If he'd stayed I think we would have had our own version of the "Gerrard/Lampard" conundrum with him and Maddison. 

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