Neil out

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

Alex Neil is arrogant and thinks that because we have better players we can play the same tactics and system in every game.

[Jim Smith 2,322]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"]@Essjayess

[Y]  Fact is, AN ticks the majority of boxes implicit in any such job specification, which I guess is why he enjoys continued support from the board. The main problem IMO is his refusal (in ron obvious''s words) to "pay more than lip service to defence". As I''ve said on other threads, believing that handing the opposition scoring opportunities is the acceptable cost of "expansive" football is hardly a recipe for taking the club forward. 

[/quote]

What boxes does AN tick aside from the non specific claim that he''s a "talented young manager." Can someone please tell me what those talents actually are because they are certainly not tactical awareness, game management, man management or having an eye for a good value signing?

Some of the above posts smack of the infernal "but who else is there" line which is defeatist and not a reason not to sack a failing manager.

[Len 74]

[quote user="TCCANARY"][quote user="Len"]Having Neil in charge on a long term basis provides

the best chance in years of seeing Wynn-Jones and his dysfunctional

family removed. No pain, no gain is how the situation ought to be

viewed.[/quote]

[quote user="Len"][quote user="Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB"]So Bruce is being excused because he has taken over a "basket case", despite his years of experience at both Premiership and Championship level, but if somebody takes over the "basket case" which is Norwich City it is guaranteed that they will improve things?........[/quote]The obvious answer is that we need a better board. First priority would be to relegate Delia to the stands and let Wynn-Jones get on with things.It''s should be staring everyone in the face that it''s not usually a good idea to bring the wife into a senior management position. The stories that she enters the dressing room on match days suggest that the woman has ideas well above her station.Small change, potentially big effect.[/quote]

Make your mind up.[/quote][url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw61hlHEICU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw61hlHEICU[/url]

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

I''ve got to echo another post and simply ask...

What job specification boxes does AN tick exactly???

It''s also been said that we need to sort our defence yet AN has had 2 years and 5 transfer windows to do this. The money is available as we have spent it...but not on sorting our defence. So why is there any confidence in him doing so in the summer. That is all academic however as failure to go up means he has to go imo. I''d like him gone now, get Rowett in before another club takes him, and start the rebuild now.

[The gut 0]

Forgetting Neil for a moment, I''m not getting this Rowett thing.

What job specification boxes does Rowett tick exactly?

[Mr Apples 1,320]

It could be worse, Blackburn have just appointed Tony Mowbray.

Apples

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,024]

I agree with Fiery Zac, if we fail to make the play offs get somebody like Rowett in to begin the task of overhauling and rebuilding an aging, underperforming squad....

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

[quote user="The gut"]Forgetting Neil for a moment, I''m not getting this Rowett thing.

What job specification boxes does Rowett tick exactly?[/quote]

Read purples post re Rowett

[The gut 0]

No time to be trawling 12 pages FZ.

On the face of it his managerial career is nothing special:-

Burton - 4th place league losing in play off semi final

Burton - 6th place losing in play off final

Brum - 21st to 10th

Brum - sacked mid season 7th.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

Gary Rowett is 42, so still young, but has been in coaching/management since 2009. He laid the foundations for Burton Albion''s rise, and revived a basket-case Birmingham City. So success with two clubs. He plainly understands the Championship, with the occasional need to win ugly, and at both his previous clubs worked within severe budget constraints.

This was the view - echoed by many others - of the Birmingham Mail when he was sacked:

An intelligent manager, a manager who in his time at Blues has conducted himself with dignity and professionalism. A manager who has taken Blues on a shoestring to contenders for the play-offs. This is a manager who understands the Championship, the constraints, the realities, and the potential of the league. Little by little, Blues have defied the odds under Rowett to punch firmly above their weight. Anyone who listened to Rowett talk about Blues and football will know this is EXACTLY the man you want in charge of your football club.

[6088m canary 0]

With Brum currently 16th i guess it shows he can get a team punching above its weight.

With us currently in 7th and 7 points off the playoffs it shows our man can get a team underperforming.

I would prefer Warburton but he could be a decent, realistic alternative.

Going back to our "young talented manager", if we just remove the word "talented". To me is a young version of Roeder. Initial kick up the backside to fire up players and get us up. After the initial "hard man" motivational style seems to have zero tactical awareness, a serious amount of stubborness, seemingly not liked or respected by his players and blames everyone bar himself for repeated failures.

[The gut 0]

No time to be trawling 12 pages FZ.

meant to say :-

On the face of it his managerial career is nothing special:-

Burton - 4th place league TWO losing in play off semi final

Burton - 6th place league TWO losing in play off final

Brum - 21st to 10th

Brum - sacked mid season 7th.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

That''s purples post.

No guarantees when appointing a new manager. Purely my opinion based on what I''ve read and seen of him and his teams.

[The gut 0]

Well at the risk of being flippant, Rowett was exactly the man that Birmingham had in charge of their football club and did not want.

All those words are relatively meaningless. Views that many echoed about Alex Neil at some stage.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

and look where Birmingham are now.

Again there are no guarantees but I think what''s happened to Brum shows he was getting the best out of an average squad. AN has achieved the opposite with us.

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

Rowett certainly had the Birmingham squad over-performing in the Championship.

 

You can''t say Alex Neil has managed that in the Championship at any point.  His first season was good and he got the players performing to the level you''d expect, but that was all.  A better manager could have got us promoted automatically.

[PurpleCanary 5,563]

[quote user="The gut"]Well at the risk of being flippant, Rowett was exactly the man that Birmingham had in charge of their football club and did not want.

All those words are relatively meaningless. Views that many echoed about Alex Neil at some stage.[/quote]It is not so  much flippant as crass. The new owners at Birmingham City plainly wanted a world name. So they dumped Rowett, who had a record of 34 points from 21 games this season, and had got the club to 7th place, and chose Zola, who has got 6 points from 12 games and seen the club drift down to 16th.

[The gut 0]

Haha Purple ... how ridiculous.

Hardly an intelligent reason given by yourself in Rowett''s favour.

I''m not saying he wouldn''t be any good.

I''m not saying he wouldn''t be better than Neil.

What I am saying is there very little evidence to suggest that Rowett would be any better.

I think there have been plenty of managers who have got their team to 7th in the championship.

The fact that Zola has been poor is not evidence that Rowett is good.

[PurpleCanary 5,563]

[quote user="The gut"]Haha Purple ... how ridiculous.

Hardly an intelligent reason given by yourself in Rowett''s favour.

I''m not saying he wouldn''t be any good.

I''m not saying he wouldn''t be better than Neil.

What I am saying is there very little evidence to suggest that Rowett would be any better.

I think there have been plenty of managers who have got their team to 7th in the championship.

The fact that Zola has been poor is not evidence that Rowett is good.[/quote]And if that was all I had said on the subject you might have had  a point.

[The gut 0]

Purple, I don''t have a point to make.

I am saying no-one is making much of a reasonable point that he is any better.

You showed Zola''s record as a comparison, what point were you trying to make by doing so?

The other point you made was that he had a record of 34 points from 21 games in the Championship. In the words of the great Shania Twaine - "that don''t impressa me much"

[Big Vince 318]

[quote user="BroadstairsR"]That''s all.

Obvious really.[/quote]

Board would have to go first because the current one wouldn''t have a clue as to who to appoint as his successor. No longer any McNasty around to get the right man. No chief exec at all. Recipe for Delia''s slapstick sense of humour to come to the fore. Blarneymeister anyone???

[westcoastcanary 173]

@Purple Canary

Thanks for responding in the spirit of my post:

1) Young - but not unexperienced as a coach/manager - and ambitious, but with ambition tempered by  a cool head. Gung-ho is not good.
4) Ability to work within financial constraints (this will apply to us next season in the Championship and perhaps after that, and - in comparitive terms - if we get back to the Premier League).

"Ambitious" can mean many things. Paul Lambert was ambitious, but his ambition led to his departure since he wasn''t prepared to temper it to align with the other constraints on the club (your 4)). Anyone with Lambert-like personal ambition is likely to find himself similarly at odds with the board and in consequence either be viewed as unsuitable or be unlikely to take the job. Which leads me to question whether "young" is really what we should be looking for;  an older, "been there, done that" individual might be a more comfortable fit (as well as bringing greater experience to the job.) Because of what we currently are in ownership terms, there needs to be a fit between the values of manager and club, similar to the fit between e.g. Wenger and Arsenal, or Howe and Bournemouth. (Interesting question here about the possibility that AN is actually, in this respect, quite a good fit for NCFC?)

[PurpleCanary 5,563]

[quote user="westcoastcanary"]@Purple Canary

Thanks for responding in the spirit of my post:

1) Young - but not unexperienced as a coach/manager - and ambitious, but with ambition tempered by  a cool head. Gung-ho is not good.
4) Ability to work within financial constraints (this will apply to us next season in the Championship and perhaps after that, and - in comparitive terms - if we get back to the Premier League).

"Ambitious" can mean many things. Paul Lambert was ambitious, but his ambition led to his departure since he wasn''t prepared to temper it to align with the other constraints on the club (your 4)). Anyone with Lambert-like personal ambition is likely to find himself similarly at odds with the board and in consequence either be viewed as unsuitable or be unlikely to take the job. Which leads me to question whether "young" is really what we should be looking for;  an older, "been there, done that" individual might be a more comfortable fit (as well as bringing greater experience to the job.) Because of what we currently are in ownership terms, there needs to be a fit between the values of manager and club, similar to the fit between e.g. Wenger and Arsenal, or Howe and Bournemouth. (Interesting question here about the possibility that AN is actually, in this respect, quite a good fit for NCFC?)

[/quote]westcoast, I disagree fundamentally about ambition. I would be quite happy to choose a manager who was looking - in the long -term - to leave because we would never be a big enough club to fulfil his ambitions. And anyone like that who got headhunted for one of the top clubs must by definition have done a good job for us, otherwise they would not be in such demand. I would not want someone who was content just to stay the manager of Norwich City and had a limited view of how far their ability could take them.John Bond (my most fondly-remembered manager) was one with such ambition. I know he later said going to Man City was the biggest mistake of his life, but he wouldn''t have been the manager he was if he hadn''t possessed that kind of drive to get to the top.And Lambert''s ambition only took him away from us after he had got us to the Premier League and a mid-table finish. Until then he was prepared to stay. I would gladly employ another such. If Rowett, for example, saw us as a stepping-stone to a much bigger club that would be fine by me, since he would have earned it by his success with us.

[king canary 7,609]

I do have theory that Neil wouldn''t get half as much leeway with some if he was a bit older. If his managerial and coaching CV was exactly the same but he was 45 I get the feeling people wouldn''t be anywhere near as forgiving of his mistakes. There seems to be a school of thought that as he is young he can only improve.

[Guest]

Why is there so much emphasis on financial constraints?

Won''t we be getting £33M next season?

[westcoastcanary 173]

@Purple Canary

Re. Lambert, he "was prepared to stay" only as long as the club''s ambitions served his. Even then it is widely believed that he almost jumped ship a year earlier when courted by Burnley. This is hardly "looking -- in the long term -- to leave". The point is that anyone with that kind of personal ambition is never really thinking "long term"; he is always on the lookout for something better (as witness Lambert at Colchester). And I think refusing to consider anyone who might be "content just to stay manager of Norwich City" would be a mistake. For one thing it would have ruled out appointing Dave Stringer! 

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

[quote user="The gut"]Purple, I don''t have a point to make. [/quote]

 

I wish more posters were this self-aware !

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

[quote user="king canary"]I do have theory that Neil wouldn''t get half as much leeway with some if he was a bit older. If his managerial and coaching CV was exactly the same but he was 45 I get the feeling people wouldn''t be anywhere near as forgiving of his mistakes. There seems to be a school of thought that as he is young he can only improve.[/quote]

 

Well it is certainly true he''s young and lacking in experience, both generally and as a manager, so you''d hope he can learn and improve.  If we got in a manager at 45 who''d been managing for 15 years, you''d hope a lot of those lessons had been learned.

 

The problem with AN for me is I can''t see any signs of improvement over the time he''s been with us, in fact in many ways he''s now a worse manager than when he joined IMO.

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

[quote user="keelansgrandad"]Why is there so much emphasis on financial constraints? Won''t we be getting £33M next season?[/quote]

 

Depends on the wage bill we''re committed to paying for players in contract really...

[PurpleCanary 5,563]

[quote user="keelansgrandad"]Why is there so much emphasis on financial constraints?

Won''t we be getting £33M next season?[/quote]I am looking beyond next season to the season after, when we will presumably be either in the Championship, with the parachute payments diminishing to nothing, or in the Premier League, with a wage bill among the very lowest.